and what could possibly go wrong?
Smart meters in UK homes will only save folks a lousy £26 a year
Smart meters are only going to save people around two per cent on their bills, but will cost each home or business £215 over five years to roll out, MPs have warned. The Public Accounts Committee said that the cost of installing 53 million smart meters would be paid for by customers in their energy bills, but they would only …
COMMENTS
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 16:25 GMT Anonymous Coward
I've an old style meter in my house, it was installed in the 1950's long before I was born and will continue to work long after I have died. How long do they expect the smart meters to work considering the software will be stored in flash memory whose retention is typically guaranteed to last only 10 years?
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 14:33 GMT Matt 21
Re: Irrelevant
I can't see how you'd save even 2%. Most people aren't bothered so won't do anything different and those who are, already turn off the lights when they're not in the room etc.
It just seems one massive waste of money and rather than helping the environment is going to harm it.
There seems to be the bizarre idea that we all leave the electric oven on each day and that smart meters will mean we're suddenly aware of it.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:22 GMT John Tserkezis
Long rant warning:
"There seems to be the bizarre idea that we all leave the electric oven on each day and that smart meters will mean we're suddenly aware of it."
But we do, and that's what they don't like. Higher energy appliances like washers/dryers, ovens, aircons etc are only ever used during the day, because, well, we're awake. Problem is, everyone else has the same idea, meaning a chunk of the power generation plants that would LIKE to run at full capacity 24/7, can't, and are forced to run full in the middle of the day only, thus taking much longer to make their money. They charge on the energy they put into the grid, so it's in their best interest if you were to "spread" your energy useage evenly over the 24 hour day period.
Smart meters are not designed to save the consumer money - so let's cut that bullshit right now. Their job is to force consurmers to shape (or re-shape) their energy usage to more evenly spread over the 24 hour day. They do that by (at least here in Oz) charging 3-4 times the usual tariff rate for onpeak, compared to regular old skool meters, and a tiny fraction for overnight offpeak use.
This has the potential to make power generation more efficient, because you don't have plants running at bare minimum baseline overnight, and only full bore in the middle of the day when aircons are on. (yes I know that's exaggerated, but you get the idea) And while that's great, there might be a couple of downsides to this. Firstly, the consumer has to spread their heavy energy consumption to overnight. That means, no aircon at all (here in Oz you only run it during the day when it's friggin' hot), and you have to stay up into the offpeak period changover to do your washing, drying and cooking. And this might be a little bit of an inconvenience to general consumers, because society dictates you operate 9-5, which leaves your offpeak time to, well, sleep.
Don't even start me on lighting. It is by far at the opposite end of your majority energy use, and it's mostly used overnight (offpeak) ANYWAY. And my rant wouldn't be complete without stating I'm happy the "standby power" bullshit myth doomsdayers have gone by the wayside. Good friggin' riddance to them.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:45 GMT Anonymous Coward
Smart meter vs dual-tariff (Off Peak) meter ?
"Smart meters are not designed to save the consumer money - so let's cut that bullshit right now. Their job is to force consurmers to shape (or re-shape) their energy usage to more evenly spread over the 24 hour day."
You can do that with an ordinary clockwork-style meter with two counters, one for on-peak and one for off-peak. In fact that's what used to happen maybe forty years or so ago when off peak domestic tariffs were introduced in the UK.
This is *not* the reason the UK is introducing the kind of smartmeters being rolled out over here.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 00:55 GMT veti
Re: Smart meter vs dual-tariff (Off Peak) meter ?
An old-fashioned dual-register meter has its peak and offpeak timing basically hard-wired, which means the definition of "peak" in your 40-year-old meter is now 40 years out of date.
Modern smart meters allow utilities to rewrite those definitions whenever they like, and also to introduce more categories ("shoulder" is a popular designation, also separate rates for weekends/public holidays that are neither "peak" nor "offpeak"), and also to monitor "demand" (i.e. the highest amount you ever draw in a given single half-hour), which is a big thing for them.
Not saying this is inherently good, just that the functionality is a lot greater.
Incidentally, they do also give cost savings even if you never change your electricity usage. It costs money to send a guy round to read a conventional meter every couple months, and that cost is multiplied manyfold if they have to make repeat visits, go out-of-hours etc (because no-one was there to let them in), then bill on estimates, with the added risk that entails... Smart meters put an end to all that, and they sharply reduce the cost of reading meters.
For comparison: in Victoria, Australia, where smart meters are now near-as-dammit universal, customers used to be charged about $25 to get a meter read when you move into a new house. Now the charge is about $5, which of course is still far more than it actually costs (approximately nothing, with a smart meter), but unarguably better for the consumer, and less error-prone.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 09:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Smart meter vs dual-tariff (Off Peak) meter ?
"An old-fashioned dual-register meter has its peak and offpeak timing basically hard-wired, which means the definition of "peak" in your 40-year-old meter is now 40 years out of date."
Jeez don't you folks in Oz know anything?
It's entirely possible for the switching times on a "clockwork" meter to be adjustable.
It can be programmed in advance for the season, with adjustable timers (like they used to be originally), or "on demand" (as was trialled, not sure if it was ever rolled out). The "on demand" way of doing it in the UK used to use the Light Programme on 1500m Long Wave, at least in principle.
The same "on demand" result, with less risk of "interference", could be achieved using ripple control - low frequency signals modulated down the mains.
Still no need for "smart" meters that can cut you off.
I certainly don't see the attraction of smart meters just so I can save $20 every time I move house.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 09:13 GMT John Smith 19
Re: Smart meter vs dual-tariff (Off Peak) meter ?
"For comparison: in Victoria, Australia, where smart meters are now near-as-dammit universal, customers used to be charged about $25 to get a meter read when you move into a new house. Now the charge is about $5, which of course is still far more than it actually costs (approximately nothing, with a smart meter), but unarguably better for the consumer, and less error-prone."
Or you could just send your meter readings over the internet?
It's funny how utility companies "estimated" bills always end up being higher.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 08:39 GMT Terry 6
Re: Smart meter vs dual-tariff (Off Peak) meter ?
The AC (above) who refered to Off-peak use in Australia;
"They do that by (at least here in Oz) charging 3-4 times the usual tariff rate for onpeak, compared to regular old skool meters, and a tiny fraction for overnight offpeak use."
has higlighted the problem, there and in the UK.
Once you switch to that system you have to be using vast amounts of night electricity to cover the high cost of the day time use. But generally we don't do many things that need to use electricity during the night. The things we do use electricity for are either day time activities, or 24 hour ones like the freezer. There aren't many things that can be switched.
To get people to choose a day/night time tarrif it has to be economic for them. Which means that normal daytime usage still has to be more or less normal price and night usage noticably cheaper. Then we can use washing machines, immersion heaters etc at night and save a few quid.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:58 GMT Someone Else
Re: Irrelevant
And if you continue to resist, your name will be added to the official list of dissenters.
Starting to think that may not be such a bad place to be. I'm also starting to think that I would be in good company on such a list, and also that such a list might get rather long rather quickly.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 05:40 GMT staplethat
Re: Irrelevant
And you will probably be charged for the meter-reader to come to your home, even though you presently fill in the meter reading on a card and post it to the company. It seems the companies will tolerate that arrangement for a year or so. Then you'll be start getting letters threatening to charge you thousands of dollars ($50,000 is one example from Toronto) if you don't agree to a smart meter.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 18:59 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Smart meters?
" the STORE diesel generators haven't cut in or run up to speed."
Unexplained response from Short Term Operating REserve was one of the findings of the investigation into the unexpectedly large impact of the Sizewell/Longannet outage back in 2008 [1].
I don't know whether there have been any further developments in that investigation since then; be interesting to hear if there have been.
Obviously Gridco turning what used to be a crisis-response mechanism (interruptible contracts) into a routine weekday peak-lopping mechanism, with no planned replacement crisis response mechanism visible last time I looked, is one visible development, not really a good sign though.
What's the Scottish situation with respect to electricity supply in.the UK? Net importer? Net exporter? Guess we'll find out in a few days.
[1] https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/ofgem-publications/41426/nationalgrid-systemeventsof27mayfordswg16july.pdf
(lots of acronyms but not all that technical)
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Saturday 1st November 2014 12:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Smart meters?
Interesting that they used voltage reduction for demand control, as today there are very few loads left where that will work and the presentation simply assumed it did back in 2008.
"Greening" of connected plant can easily result in that technique becoming counterproductive while the contracts permitting it remain in place.
I'm sure I've seen National Grid papers concerned that it won't work - SMPs and VFDs will simply draw more current.
(Badly proofread though - frequency isn't measured in MW!)
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:33 GMT John Tserkezis
Re: Smart meters?
"Or "kill switches" in the event of a power shortage?"
You don't need smart meters to do that. This is part of normal operation of the grid, and happens on a not-so-regular-basis to ensure service to critical areas (like corporates in the city centre) when there is high usage for whatever reason (usually aircons on hot part of the day).
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 13:22 GMT Anonymous Coward
Smart meters aren't about the display, for gods sake, it's about regular communications with the utility helping the utility better manage the delivery.
26/215 ~= 0.12
Seems to me they'll easily pay off in the long run. So, why the hemming and hawing? Oh, wait, because something better might come along in the future that they can hem and haw on because something better might happen.
If there's anything to question, it's the estimated reductions in consumption.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 14:26 GMT JP19
"ie over 8 years of savings are required to pay for the device."
Except those savings are based on the ridiculous assumption that people will use so much less electricity if only they knew how much they were using.
Well done The Public Accounts Committee for stating the bleeding obvious, shame you are 3 or 4 years too late. Not that it would make any difference because as I stated here nearly 3 years ago the reason we are getting smart meters is...
The technically illiterate eco green willy waving tossers running the country find the idea of forcing us to pay for personal energy guilt meters irresistible.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 14:37 GMT Anonymous Coward
Not sure
that smarty meters help. When the guy at the top says it"'ll help the utility provider manage supplies I can't see how. They already know how much electricity they're supplying to the grid, it really doesn't help them to know that number 14s just put his phone on charge.
So, that just leaves them remotely turning my stuff off. Sorry, I don't leave things on which I want someone else turning off.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:43 GMT John Tserkezis
"Except those savings are based on the ridiculous assumption that people will use so much less electricity if only they knew how much they were using."
But as per my Long Rant, this isn't about using LESS, it's about smoothing your usage over the 24 hour day, so you don't have huge consumption over some of the day, and minimal over others.
Trust me on this, in the (albeit unlikely) event that we all started using using the same power, evenly over a 24 hour period, then started consuming much more, trust me, they will only be more than thrilled to bits to install extra power stations to take up the load.
What they DON'T like, is to install a power station that only gets used 4 hours a day because you feel hot and want to turn your aircon on. Mainly because you're not the only one who's doing this.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 09:17 GMT John Smith 19
"Well done The Public Accounts Committee for stating the bleeding obvious, shame you are 3 or 4 years too late. Not that it would make any difference because as I stated here nearly 3 years ago the reason we are getting smart meters is..."
No shame on the "Honorable Member" of the HoL for trousering a large stipend to get it included in the relevant "Green" legislation.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 14:56 GMT James Micallef
Well, the non-smart meters last 20, 30 years or more. No reason they shouldn't function properly for that amount of time. The real question isn't whether they will still work but whether they will become obsolete as networks change around them.
If* the whole infrastructure was properly designed in the first place it would have taken into account that any upgrades/updates in the utilities' infrastructure for the next 20 years would need to be backward compatible with the current smart meters.
*That's a big 'if', I know
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 15:19 GMT the spectacularly refined chap
Well, the non-smart meters last 20, 30 years or more.
They have to be replaced after 30 years - the leccy board came round my house earlier this year to replace ours telling us it was a mandatory legal requirement. With another old-style meter that will no doubt be replaced again in the next five years. So much for thinking ahead.
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:47 GMT John Tserkezis
"They have to be replaced after 30 years - the leccy board came round my house earlier this year to replace ours telling us it was a mandatory legal requirement."
Or, at some houses here in Australia where they were forced^H^H^H^H^H convinced it's a great idea to "upgrade" to a smart meter, they get replaced every few months due to fire "faults".
Whether the fires were caused by actual faults, or the end user lighting them up because he was that pissed off, was still up for debate last I heard...
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 20:06 GMT Roland6
Re: Well, the non-smart meters last 20, 30 years or more.
It would be nice to think that way, but it seems current in the field experience puts the lifespan in the 12~15 year bracket. Additionally, I suspect that if smart tariffs do take off (ie. tariffs that can only be reasonably applied if a smart meter with smart communications is fitted) we will find that the current generation of smart meters (that are being deployed) aren't up to the job...
Actually from my experience isn't so much whether they still work but what happens when they go wrong. Currently if your smart meter fails the utility will try and bill you for the period between their last reading and when they replaced the meter based on their estimate. You may think that sounds reasonable, until you discover that the majors currently only read the smart meter on the same periodicity as the normal meter ie. every six months, and the fact you were abroad (and can prove this was so) for a significant part of that time is irrelevant...
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Wednesday 10th September 2014 15:07 GMT Yet Another Anonymous coward
RE: So, why the hemming and hawing?
Because the purpose is to allow the electricity board to charge more - and then charge you £200 to fit the means to charge you more.
They installed them here to allow for "dynamic market rate adjustment" - so if its a hot day and there is a big demand for AC in the city they can just put up the price of your power for a few hours. Or if the market rate means that your local windpower could be sold as "green tariff" power in Germany for more than you are currently paying they can increase your price to the market rate.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 09:27 GMT John Smith 19
"Lets hope this is put a stop to it before they start putting them in."
Still possible IIRC. Write to your local MP now and tell them that flushing £10Bn of cash to the USA (where most of these meters are coming from IIRC) is a complete wast of money.
IIRC this is not an EU requirement. countries can say no if its not economically viable.
And frankly it's not.
This has nothing to do with lowering electricity bills (where do you think the £215/meter is coming from, a UK govt grant?) and everything to do with giving utility companies the ability to a)Change tariffs on the fly (naturally you wont' be able to switch suppliers as fast as they can jack their charges up) and
b) Remote kill switch for non paying customers/ customers who don't have an assured supply contract with them and the ongoing b**locks about deciding when and if new power stations (proper ones that can run 90+% of the time, not the 6-30% of windmills)
All delivered using the same kind of s**t that US cybersecurity researches have already found plenty of exploits in.
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Thursday 11th September 2014 17:09 GMT David Beck
Re: "Lets hope this is put a stop to it before they start putting them in."
I think you'll find that "UK Govt Grant" comes out of your pocket too.
And as I understand it, the energy retailer is supplying and fitting the meter so if you change to a different retailer they may require a new (read different) meter fitted. It's as if someone said," the energy industry is pretty f**ked up, how can we f**k is up some more?"
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