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back to article Scottish independence debate: STV player flops under weight of viewers

In what could be taken as an ominous sign for the future, Brits below the Scottish border were unable to live stream the debate on Scotland’s independence last night – because the STV Player crashed under the weight of viewers trying to watch the event. The debate between pro-independence First Minister Alex Salmond and Labour …

ITV Doesn't Own STV!

" ITV's Scottish subsidiary"

ITV doesn't own STV, ITV has nothing to do with them. If the author checked before publishing this he'd know STV pay ITV for content

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

"with Darling pressuring Salmond on the question of what currency Scotland would use if it gained independence. "

http://lowres.cartoonstock.com/politics-scottish_independence-scotland_referendum-groats-hikers-hikes-jlun676_low.jpg

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

One other point; while STV own the Central and Northern Scotland franchises that cover the majority of the Scottish population, the Scottish/English border franchise is owned by ITV plc.

Apparently, however, ITV Border showed the debate- I can imagine that a lot of people living there would have been legitimately pissed off if they hadn't.

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

"Apparently, however, ITV Border showed the debate-"

They did. Although I thought Derek Batey hosting an edition of Mrs and Mrs with a Scots husband with an English wife straight afterwards was in poor taste.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

and exit fee 2 groats?

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

"But I've only got one... How about 1 groat and a turnip"

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

> STV pay ITV for content

Do you think ITV will ever actually supply any?

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Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

A bawbee shurely!

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Slx

Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

As far as I'm aware the only two companies left in the "Independent" Television Network are STV and UTV Media (Ulster Television) in Northern Ireland.

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Joke

Re: ITV Doesn't Own STV!

Only if the turnip is shaped like a thingy! :)

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'Should be on the UK-wide BBC. This is about the future of the union after all, which is about ALL British nations.'

Hold on, if that's true, shouldn't we all be getting a vote then?

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Countries have the right to self determination. The same holds true for Northern Ireland, where it's long been established that any decision on whether to remain in the UK or to unify with Ireland will be the choice of the people there.

Otherwise, especially given the much larger population of England compared to all those areas that may wish to leave, what do you imagine should happen if Scotland or Northern Ireland were to vote to leave the UK, but the English voted to keep them within it?

Should we, effectively, hold them prisoner? While some might think that's exactly what should be done, I can't see it as anything other than a cause of much upset in the long run.

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Nige, you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union. Where's the evidence of that? What I'm saying is let's all vote on this, to test that assumption. Personally, I'm not at all sure your assumption is correct. We've not been given the chance to find out, so we'll probably never know.

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"what do you imagine should happen if Scotland or Northern Ireland were to vote to leave the UK, but the English voted to keep them within it?"

That's not the issue. Of course the English shouldn't be able to vote to keep the Scotts in. However if the Scott's are voting about leaving and demanding (ha ha ha) a currency union, the English should be able, at the same time, to vote about separating from Scotland and/or avoiding a currency union (which would mean the B of E continuing to underwrite Scottish banks). Many Scott's don't realise that more English want them to leave than want them to stay. Polling firm Survation polled North and South of the border discovered that little factoid.

Here's a suggestion. Since which country should continue with or "inherit" EU membership seems arbitrary, why not have Scotland leave the union, stay in the EU and the remaining UK exit the EU? Seems to me if we assume a "Yes" vote North of the Border (big assumption I know) and on the basis of the polls South of the border, the majority will be happy.

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"shouldn't we all be getting a vote then?"

Nope, or scotland would be kicked out of the union...

I myself think it would be stupid for them to leave.

but I can see some benefits to the rest of the UK if they leave...

Shipbuilding would move back to England(most likely) or Wales since the UK would have to cancel any future building of warships in Scotland,

Our nuclear deterrent would move to England or Wales.

more jobs would be created in the remainder of the Union because of those two things.

The downside is conservatives would have too much power, and power without balance from opposition is risky.

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"you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union. Where's the evidence of that?"

Several large polls have been conducted on the subject, and they all show that support for the Union is even higher in the rest of the UK than it is in Scotland.

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Nuclear Deterrent Location

I think we should move it to the Falkland Islands - they'd love to wind up the Argentinians and having a nuclear sub base would be perfect for them....

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@Hadvar I'm not assuming they would, just wondering what people think would actually happen if that were to be the result - and I don't think it's particularly an unlikely one.

Personally, I think it's long past time we had a proper federal constitution for the UK, where each constituent part has the same devolved powers, and there's a clear statement of what rights people have across the federation (eg with regard to things like tuition, medical services) to fix some of the anomalies caused by the current devolution settlements.

But, of course, adventurous reform is fairly unlikely in the UK, where "it's worked well for hundreds of years" is all too often deemed a perfectly good argument for stasis.

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Re: "you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union. Where's the evidence of that?"

@Jedit. Sources please.

Where polls were conducted across the UK the data I've found (admittedly now a little old) says the opposite:

http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Scottish-Referendum-Poll-Methodology-Crosstabulations.pdf

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.html

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Anonymous Coward

"you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union..."

I'm English and I'd vote yes tomorrow just to get it over and done with...

And then we can get shot of all the Scottish MPs voting in the house of commons on legislation which doesn't have any impact on their constituents.

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Re: "you are assuming the English would vote to keep the union..."

I think the most pressing issue is why, when I was a kid, there used to be a *lot* more ginger Scotts than there are today. Seriously, either there is some extremely dangerous genetic terminator doing the rounds, or Scottish men are far more softy Southern than they make out and have been adopting women's hair treatments; probably with a manicure, shampoo and head-massage.

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... the English should be able... to vote about separating from Scotland

The reason the referendum is happening is because a majority of voters in Scotland voted for a party who had an independence referendum as one of their major manifesto points. As far as I'm aware, that hasn't happened in England.

So perhaps you should either find a party willing to pledge such a referendum (shouldn't be *that* difficult given "more English want them to leave than want them to stay," should it?) and elect them or start one yourself

Or you could just carry on whining.

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Re: ... the English should be able... to vote about separating from Scotland

AbelSoul. Of course we don't want a referendum about Scotland. You can do what you like. Just don't come back in the door two hours after leaving saying, "oh, sorry but, we are just expecting our banks to be underwritten by a currency union, sign here will you" and then two hours later again "oh, sorry, sorry to interrupt again, ha, it just seems we seem to have forgotten the additional 4% of Scotts employed by the UK national government above the average public sector employment rate, just sign here to guarantee their jobs will you?" then two hours later again saying, "sorry, sorry, we really are leaving, but it seems, ha, this is really quite embarrassing, it seems we are no longer in the EU and, you see, that means we need special treatment re: immigration. We've been left a bit short of jobs and were just wondering if we could have freedom of movement to take some of yours. Oh, and that whole charging for education at Scottish colleges thing, when anyone else in the EU got free places and we could go for free to yours? Clerical error. Sorry won't happen again. We're good aren't we? Good yes? Great, see you for the barbie on Saturday, got to be at your place, it's raining here."

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Re: Of course we don't want a referendum about Scotland.

But you do want to be able " ... to vote about separating from Scotland."

At least that's what you said in your previous post and I'm not sure I follow you if you want one and not the other.

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Re: Of course we don't want a referendum about Scotland.

No inconsistency.

If you Scotts want a divorce and leave the house and set up their own bank account. We agree a split in the accounts and there's no problem.

If you want a divorce and demand we should remain joined at the hip with a joint bank account and financial guarantees, but gradually wake up to not having the leverage, and leave muttering obscenities to yourself, then you are being a bit annoying, but also there is no problem.

If you want a divorce, and insist on the account transferred into joint names, with financial guarantees before leaving and having said you are going, refuse to leave and have hissy fits, then yes there is a problem. I want a clean divorce. Just leave already, you are affecting voters UK wide.

So actually I don't want a referendum in the UK, but reserve the right to have one should the Scottish Nationalists press demands of the remaining UK instead of making a clean break of it. Of course, in practice we won't have one, but in principle it is fair if such demands are being made.

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Anonymous Coward

Self Determination

Can we have a referendum to get rid of those whinging Scots?

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Hi Scott!

@ SuccessCase; "I think the most pressing issue is why, when I was a kid, there used to be a *lot* more ginger Scotts than there are today."

This probably has less to do with the number of ginger-haired people out there, and more to do with the fact that "Scott" simply isn't as popular a name as it used to be.

Hence there will naturally be fewer "ginger Scotts".

Hope this explains things.

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Hi again, Scott! ;-)

@SuccessCase; "Of course the English shouldn't be able to vote to keep the Scotts in"

Why do you have this obsession with people named "Scott"? You've mentioned them in every post you made in this thread!

"However if the Scott's"

It's Scott's, not yours. Leave him alone!

By the way, do you have any opinions on the constitutional position of Whales? Personally, I think they should all sod off back to the sea and eat krill.

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Paris Hilton

"what do you imagine should happen if Scotland or Northern Ireland were to vote to leave the UK, but the English voted to keep them within it?"

What if the English voted for them to leave, and they voted to stay?

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Bad spelling, bad grammar, false factiod

@SuccessCase

Who is this guy called Scott? What is your obsession about Scott's possessions?

And you are mis-representing the results of a a dodgy poll from two years ago, made before the question being asked was even decided. It did not conclude that "more English want them to leave than want them to stay". It concluded, for whatever value you wish to place on it, that more English *than Scots* wanted Scottish independence.

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@MrXavia

>Shipbuilding would move back to England(most likely) or Wales since the UK would have to cancel any future building of warships in Scotland,

Don't forget Belfast...

>Our nuclear deterrent would move to England or Wales.

My money's on Wales - the farther away from Westminster the better, as per ibid.

>more jobs would be created in the remainder of the Union because of those two things.

And a tidal wave of Scottish skilled labour would probably be making use of their promised dual citizenship to up-sticks and apply for them. Remember now: if they've got passports you can't call them immigrants!

>The downside is conservatives would have too much power, and power without balance from opposition is risky.

I shouldn't worry, if your predictions about heavy industry come true then it'll be a massive shot in the arm for rUK Labour :)

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@SuccessCase RE: The Rant That Line-Breaks Forgot

>"oh, sorry but, we are just expecting our banks to be underwritten by a currency union, sign here will you"

Currency union != having the BoE as lender of last resort, not to mention that those decisions are made by government anyway and I'm sure Westminster would relish saying "No". [Sidebar: I also think currency union's a dumb idea, for the above and other reasons.]

>"oh, sorry, sorry to interrupt again, ha, it just seems we seem to have forgotten the additional 4% of Scotts employed by the UK national government above the average public sector employment rate, just sign here to guarantee their jobs will you?"

SELECT * FROM civil_servants WHERE firstName = 'Scott'; [sorry, couldn't resist]

Two things: firstly, yes the Scottish public sector is pretty disproportionate, but you make out like it's orders of magnitude larger than that of the UK as a whole, which it really ain't. Secondly, quite a lot of those jobs are doing data-processing for non-devolved Westminster ministries/depts (HMRC is a massive one). And if you want to "repatriate" all those jobs, then rUK's public sector will swell accordingly. The cool thing is that, whether you do that or "contract out" the work to the existing staff, since all those Scottish pork-guzzlers will have dual citizenship, they're free to take the jobs whichever side of the border they're based on :)

>"sorry, sorry, we really are leaving, but it seems, ha, this is really quite embarrassing, it seems we are no longer in the EU and, you see, that means we need special treatment re: immigration. We've been left a bit short of jobs and were just wondering if we could have freedom of movement to take some of yours.

Yeeeeeah, about that? You may have missed this, but we're actually quite keen on immigration, because we actually need more working-age folk to care for our wrinklies and keep the lights on. (Actually you do too, but the press seem not to talk about this much...)

>Oh, and that whole charging for education at Scottish colleges thing, when anyone else in the EU got free places and we could go for free to yours? Clerical error. Sorry won't happen again.

It wasn't an error ;) It was a response to progressively socially divisive fees regimes south of the border, hand-in-hand with a bit of bribery to encourage our own bright young things not to fuck off to London for such things. Remember, government funding (or not) of higher education is about the student, not the institution looking to fatten its wallet.

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Put it on Youtube

Isn't this of interest to an international community? I'm in Canada, but this debate is still relevant here and would probably be a good way to understand the issues.

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Re: Put it on Youtube

I thought politicalbetting.com had a link to the debate on Youtube.

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Childcatcher

Watch it on STV Player or BBC Iplayer

Re: Put it on Youtube

It was available on STV Player by midnight. And it will be on BBC Parliament (and Iplayer), without adverts, at 7o'clock this evening.

I thought it was typical boring politicking -- continual repetitive asking the same question that was unanswerable; either because it was designed to be unanswerable or because the answer would be self-incriminating.

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Coat

Re: Put it on Youtube

Does Canada want to leave the USA, then?

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Re: Put it on Youtube

"Does Canada want to leave the USA, then?"

I think Canada just wants the US to leave...

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Re: Put it on Youtube

Some people in Quebec want to leave Canada.

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Re: Put it on Youtube

And more people in Canada want Quebec to leave

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Unhappy

Double edged sword...........

"Salmond insisted that Scotland would be better off ruling itself than being subject to the whims of politicians in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."

That works both ways. A number of laws were passed during the Blair/Brown years that affected only English citizens but were passed because of the support of Scottish Labour MPs whose constituents were not affected.

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Re: Double edged sword...........

For a more accurate sentence, try this:

"Salmond insisted that Scottish thieving bastards would be better off ruling Scotland than being subject to the whims of thieving bastards in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."

If the answer is politicians (the current mob of self-serving, morally dubious sons and daughters of unwed mothers), then maybe people aren't asking the right question...

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Re: Double edged sword...........

You mean like how English MPs voted on Scottish only issue for the 300 years up to devolution. Scotland never voted for Thatcher but she still gave the Scots the poll tax a year before England even though the Act of Union forbad the introduction of taxes in Scotland that was not matched by equal measure south of the border.

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Re: Double edged sword...........

I didn't vote for her either but you don't see me trying to form a republic.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Double edged sword...........

Scotland didn't vote for Thatcher... So what? Many counties could sat that too. Somebody living in, for example, Glasgow has exactly the same say as someone living in Truro.

I can't see that Scotland is any more disadvantaged than Liverpool. The houses of Parliament may be located in London but the MPs come from all round the UK. It may be true that for one reason or another, the government is a bit London centric but every area outside of London has the same complaint.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Double edged sword...........

I don't follow this "we didn't vote for the government we got" argument. It is democracy, you voted, but more people voted for the parties you didn't vote for, and they won, or in this case got into coalition. However small the electorate is, there will always be some who "didn't vote for the government we got".

Drawing a boundary around an area that happens to contain people who are of a politically different persuasion than the current lot in power and demanding independence is weak because not everyone inside that boundary agrees, although a majority may do. So if independence happens, many people didn't vote for that either, so perhaps they should seek independence from an independent Scotland? Where does that lead?

What if post-independence, the SNP were in power but Aberdeen "didn't vote SNP?" Should they take the oil and become independent from Scotland? What if post the independence of Aberdeen, part of Aberdeen didn't vote for whoever was in power, should they seperate further? All you end up with is isolationism.

IMHO we need to all stick together and don't fall for divide and rule. There is safety in numbers and we should focus on changing the current system and government to be more representative. If all the people who can't be arsed voting got off their backsides and did so, we could get a fair and representative government. We should be looking there.

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Re: Double edged sword...........

After independence the Orkneys won't be ruled by some distant parliament in Edinburgh and will vote for independence taking the oil with them

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Re: Double edged sword...........

"Salmond insisted that Scotland would be better off ruling itself than being subject to the whims of politicians in Westminster whom Scots themselves hadn’t voted for."

Typical Salmond. That statement isn't even true. Scotts did vote for SOME of the MPs in Westminster.

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Headmaster

Re: Double edged sword...........

Are you by any chance related to SuccessCase? Only I notice you share a fascination with the doings of people called Scott...

Given that the correct spelling is in the passage you quoted, you must not think much of the Reg's copy-editors (I don't either, but that's besides the point).

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Unhappy

No surprise

STV Player has always been crap. The fact that it couldn't handle the load comes as no surprise.

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