back to article Amazon France routes around free shipping ban with €0.01 charge

Amazon France has come up with a neat way to neuter the nation's ban on free shipping of books. The book-slinger has published a Questions Fréquemment Posées to explain its stance. The workaround is simple: Amazon France has decided on a flat rate of €0.01 for shipping. While the decision to snub France's stance is cheeky, …

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  1. Gene Cash Silver badge

    And that's cuttin' me own throat!

    So what does Amazon get out of this? Certainly they're cheaper than everyone else in France, but they're eating the shipping charges.

    Is this just a big "FU" to the French and nothing else? Not that Amazon being a dick for the pleasure of being a dick is news anymore.

    On one hand, I see the point of the French law, and I agree it's a good thing to protect local independent shops. On the other hand, I see the complete incompetence of my own local independent shops and wonder if they deserve the protection. And on the gripping hand, I like books and think it's a crime that books like Clark's "Ignition!" can go "out of print" and not at least have a digital version available. (There's a PDF available, but it's a pirate scan, and I think he deserves some sort of residual.)

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

      Isn't it a big FU by France to the idea of a common market?

      Or would they regard a German law preventing French cars being sold for more than 5% less than a Mercedes, or an British law prohibiting French wine being sold in Britain for less than British beer as similarly protecting their unique culture?

      1. Sorry that handle is already taken. Silver badge

        Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

        I don't know about your car analogy. Observe:

        According to the article:

        Book A (local store): Price = X, therefore

        Book A (Amazon): Price >= 0.95X

        You have suggested a car analogy:

        Car A: Price = X, therefore

        Car B: Price >= 0.95X

        Not quite the same thing, innit?

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

          You are forgetting that the book store can decide to match the Amazon price, in which case Amazon is 1c more expensive than the local book store...

          And Germany has similar (industry enforced since the 19th century, law since 2002) pricing of books. The publisher sets the price and any shop caught selling under the minimum price defined by the publisher is fined 6,000€ per offence.

          http://www.thenation.com/article/168124/how-germany-keeps-amazon-bay-and-literary-culture-alive

          It isn't all bad news, it means that publishers can support smaller authors with the profits from bestsellers and many publishers price their books at very low margins, where they are always on the point of going bust is sales fall.

          It isn't good for the reader, in that you can only get discounted books if the publisher discounts them - it does happen; on the other hand it is good for the reader, because there are great little book shops all over Germany, where you can pop in and read books. Many of the larger book shops (E.g. Thalia, Hugendubel) have reading corners, where you can just wander in, pick up a book and sit and read the book, drink a cup of coffee, then leave again. You don't have to buy the book. It is great for students and it is great for working out whether a book is worth buying or not.

          Where Amazon are winning, at the moment, is with self-publishing. There are some very good independent authors writing exclusively for Amazon, because it is easier than trying to get a book deal. The quality of the writing would never get them published (spelling mistakes, poor grammar, missing words etc.), but the stories are good and the text is still readable.

          1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge

            Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

            Many of the larger book shops (E.g. Thalia, Hugendubel) have reading corners, where you can just wander in, pick up a book and sit and read the book, drink a cup of coffee, then leave again. You don't have to buy the book.

            I'm willing to bet you that their profit on that cup of coffee (probably priced at around €4, with a margin of around €3.90) is far larger than the profit they would have made if they had sold the book.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

          "Not quite the same thing, innit?"

          Its exactly the same thing, but with cars instead of books. It's restricting free market pricing.

          1. Loyal Commenter Silver badge
            Facepalm

            Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

            Its exactly the same thing, but with cars instead of books. It's restricting free market pricing.

            Sigh... No it isn't the same thing.

            In the first case, it is comparing A priced at €x with A priced at €y - the item being sold is the same thing

            In your example, it is comparing A priced at €x with B priced at €y - the item being sold is something completely different

            To take your (already stretched) car analogy, lets use a fruit-and-veg analogy:

            Greengrocer A sells apples at £1 a pound (he doesn't care that the EU says he has to sell them in kilos). Greengrocer B sells his apples at 1 penny a pound, absorbing the loss, to try to drive greengrocer A out of business, and then when he is the only player left in the market, he can charge whatever he likes for apples.

            However, if greengrocer A was selling apples at £1 a pound, it has no bearing whatsoever on what greengrocer B can charge for German cars.

            1. h4rm0ny

              Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

              >>"Greengrocer B sells his apples at 1 penny a pound, absorbing the loss, to try to drive greengrocer A out of business, and then when he is the only player left in the market, he can charge whatever he likes for apples."

              Your analogy only works if Amazon are actually selling at a loss. I don't believe they are and am interested in any evidence that this is the case. To do so would be anti-competitive. But if they're still making a product then they're not abusing their position (at least because of selling more cheaply), they're just undercutting their competitors. Which is what you're meant to do.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

        Isn't it a big FU by France to the idea of a common market?

        French idea of "common market" is "only when it is in our interest". France has yet to apply a single element of the common market which can to some extent "endanger" any of it is monopolies. SNCF is still happily operating as a state owned monopoly. The french farmers can still do what they please and get paid for that too. Anything and everything is either protected as a "cutlural institution" or via "geographical" registered marks. They are _WORSE_ than Greece and their economic results reflect that.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

          "France has yet to apply a single element of the common market which can to some extent "endanger" any of it is monopolies. "

          Many years ago a French colleague working at the then EEC made an interesting observation. "The trouble with the British is that when they agree to a rule - then they believe they have to follow it".

          The same colleague taught me to understand an expression used in the departmental meetings - which were always conducted only in French. "En principe, oui" - means "No".

    2. Rather Notsay

      Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

      Sacre bleu! Wave the drapeau blanc: it is competition!

    3. TheVogon

      Re: And that's cuttin' me own throat!

      Presumably they can start listing French book on Amazon.co.uk at heavily discounted prices.

  2. h4rm0ny

    King Canute

    That's what this sounds like. We now have the technology for near-instant communication long-distance, the infrastructure to transports goods cheaply and quickly... We're even seeing P2P delivery start to emerge with some services that just use local people to deliver the last few miles for a small cut.

    Basically, when it's Steam Engine Time, steam engines will appear. Our cities are going to look quite different in the near future with so much of our shopping being done online. Clothes will probably be the last to go because it's fun and necessary to try them on and see how they look. It's also a social activity in the way that buying a TV isn't. (You can't go out with your friends and buy TVs on a regular basis or you're going to have a lot of TVs).

    1. big_D Silver badge

      Re: King Canute

      I still buy locally when and where it makes sense.

      I much prefer to buy locally and I'm willing to pay a little extra to do so. But in many cases local businesses just can't compete.

      We bought a new bed (frame local, base and matresses from Amazon), a new TV (local) and a new washing machine (Amazon) recently. The bed and TV were almost as cheap as Amazon, even when bought locally and we could try them out for size. The matresses and base were dramatically cheaper (saved around 200€ on a 400€ order), whilst the washing machine was 70€ cheaper.

      If the washing machine had been within 20€, we would have bought it locally.

      One of the advantages to buying locally is that if it goes wrong, you can go and talk to somebody, no overseas telesupport and no waiting for email to go back and forth, you talk to somebody and you don't budge until they do something about it.

      That, to me, is worth a little extra.

      1. h4rm0ny

        Re: King Canute

        Being able to try stuff out before you buy is good. But honestly, when it comes to customer service, Amazon are about the best I've ever dealt with. I can request a callback and my phone has rung almost immediately. I used the wrong address for a delivery once and they took care of everything. And the rare returns I've just peeled the provided return sticker off and placed it on the package and back it's gone. As easier (or easier) than taking it back to a shop.

        I'm sure there are some bad stories out there, but in my years of using Amazon, their customer service has been extraordinary.

        (No, I don't work for them!)

        1. JimmyPage Silver badge
          Thumb Up

          +1 for Amazon CS here, too

          In the 15 years since I started using Amazon, I can count on the fingers of one hand the problems I've had. And each one was dealt with promptly, courteously, and [IMHO] correctly.

        2. big_D Silver badge

          Re: King Canute

          Yes, Amazon's return policy is relatively good. But if you have a leak in the coolant of your new fridge (something we had with the last one), you don't necessarily want to wait a couple of weeks for it to be repaired and returned.

          The electronics store sent out a repairman the next day to check and seal the unit and re-gas it.

          1. DropBear

            Re: King Canute

            Clothes will probably be the last to go because it's fun...

            Sorry, I think I zoned out at "fun" being used in the same sentence with "clothes", in a shopping context. Anyway - about shopping locally: even though it's not something that one would prefer to buy online, I did just get my new monitor that way. Why? Because I simply wasn't able to see the model I was interested in in action, seeing as how local stores were all either a) not selling that model b) keeping all their monitors turned off, unpowered on the shelves, or c) hook every single one of them up to their lowest common denominator - a low-res VGA signal (!) that was crappy beyond belief due to endless cable runs and infinite re-splitting (and no, there's no such thing as "ask to try" - it's uniformly "just take it home and if it doesn't work, bring it back under warranty"). When on-line price was actually better (obviously), I saw not a single reason to buy local...

            1. h4rm0ny

              Re: King Canute

              >>"Sorry, I think I zoned out at "fun" being used in the same sentence with "clothes", in a shopping context"

              You spend a few hours drifting around town with your friends, chatting and having fun and trying out new looks and getting their opinions, spending a bit of time having a coffee together. You like hanging out with your friends, don't you?

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: King Canute

                You spend a few hours drifting around town with your friends, chatting and having fun and trying out new looks and getting their opinions, spending a bit of time having a coffee together. You like hanging out with your friends, don't you?

                Sorry, without meaning to be sexist, that is definitely a female thing. Still, I didn't downvote you like all the misogynists here!

                Oh, and King Canute never thought he could control the tide.... His followers did. look it up! :-)

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Joke

        Re: King Canute

        I buy local fruit and veg in my local shop here in good old blighty.

        I can't put up with all those carbon footprints killing us, so I insist all my oranges, lemons, kiwi fruit ,limes and bananas are of local origin.

        I also insist the local co-op only stocks fair-trade coffee and tea, grown no further than 30 miles of Birmingham

        1. Nuke
          Holmes

          Re: King Canute

          Wrote :- "I also insist the local co-op only stocks fair-trade coffee and tea, grown no further than 30 miles of Birmingham"

          Makes me think how odd it is that "fair trade" is only ever about foreign farming produce. Perhaps because people find it charming to see pictures of smiling black farmers standing in fields of lush green crops? More charming no doubt than dirty miners toiling underground, clothes makers in sweatshops, or assembly-line workers in mindless Chinese factories. When did you ever see a "fair trade" patch cable?

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: King Canute

        I love buying locally.

        Tesco's, Aldi, Sainsburys, Morrison's, Asda...all pretty local

        1. Piro Silver badge

          Re: King Canute

          My local is a Waitrose...

    2. Nuke
      Meh

      Re: King Canute

      Wrote :- "Our cities are going to look quite different in the near future with so much of our shopping being done online.

      OK if it works, but I'd rather see things before I buy. I recently bought some electrical connectors from CPC's website, and the moment I opened the package I could see they were such rubbish that they went straight into the bin. I could have tried returning them, but such hassle and postage.

      I have just bought some guttering over the internet. There are three dominant brands, A, B and C. The seller's website pictures looked like Brand A, but I phoned to check and was told Brand B. That was fine, I prefered Brand B. They came and were Brand C.

      Acually, they look like Brand C but lack trade marks, so I'm wondering if they are actually rip-offs of Brand C patterns.

      So why do I buy from websites? As you say, the local shops and suppliers are disappearing.

  3. Alan J. Wylie

    Bastille Day - good day to bury bad news

    This body text intentionally left blank

  4. Velv

    Surely the law is ultimately counter-productive

    Amazon sells at roughly the same price as a shop.

    Amazon enjoys bulk discount from the publishers so on any given book it's profit margin is larger, so it can invest in quicker delivery and more customer service (and potentially other "benefits"). At the very least it would cover the delivery charges and then some.

    Or does the law mandate that the publisher must sell to each vendor at the same price (wouldn't that encourage a cartel and be against EU competition law)

    1. h4rm0ny

      >>"Or does the law mandate that the publisher must sell to each vendor at the same price (wouldn't that encourage a cartel and be against EU competition law)"

      Question - how would mandating all vendors get to pay the same costs encourage a cartel? I would have thought the opposite. I.e. if a dominant player can't leverage their position to get better deals than smaller players, isn't that good for the smaller players?

  5. Random Q Hacker

    Money isn't everything,

    Only the autistic think a free market will solve all of life's problems. In the US we are racing to the bottom thanks to the free market. It sounds like the French value their culture and leisure time more than making a buck, which is kinda refreshing!

    1. h4rm0ny

      Re: Money isn't everything,

      >>"Only the autistic think a free market will solve all of life's problems. In the US we are racing to the bottom thanks to the free market"

      I'm not sure autism inclines one to any particular political leaning.

      >>It sounds like the French value their culture and leisure time more than making a buck, which is kinda refreshing!

      This isn't "the French", it's the French Government - a different thing. Clearly if "the French" didn't want to use Amazon in place of local retailers, then the Government would not have to institute such a law to try and stop them. I'm also unclear as to how impeding Amazon is an indicator of the French valuing their culture and leisure time. Using Amazon typically saves time over going round lots of different shops.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Money isn't everything, @ h4rm0ny

        >Using Amazon typically saves time over going round lots of different shops.

        If the government is fixing the price so that all shops have roughly the same price then there will be no need to go round lots of different shops looking for a better deal effectively taking price out of the equation You will choose the place you buy from based on the friendliness and courteousness of the staff, something the French are not noted for. So Amazon should still win. However, part of French culture seems to dictate that the customer likes to be either ignored or insulted, as price is no longer a factor maybe culture will win and the French will continue to go to the book stores.

        1. h4rm0ny

          Re: Money isn't everything, @ h4rm0ny

          >>"If the government is fixing the price so that all shops have roughly the same price then there will be no need to go round lots of different shops looking for a better deal effectively taking price out of the equation"

          Actually, I was thinking about finding what I want, not saving money. Sitting on the sofa looking through products for the one I want is a lot more time efficient than visiting lots of different shops. I also have extra information available in the form of reviews.

          If I want to go shopping as a form of social activity, that I do with friends and I do with clothes. For movies, books, electronics, I do that online. The less mainstream something is, the more efficient that becomes.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Money isn't everything,

      "In the US we are racing to the bottom thanks to the free market."

      And to your lack of cultural values plus generally high levels of US consumer gullibility.

      "It sounds like the French value their culture and leisure time more than making a buck"

      As do most of the rest of the EU.

    3. Glostermeteor

      Re: Money isn't everything,

      Money isn't everything, but one thing I do admire greatly about your country is you put the consumer at the heart of everything that a business does. I don't see what is best for the consumer mentioned once in this argument, its all about the book sellers not the book buyers, and that is where the French are going wrong. Treating your customers badly but having laws to protect firms that treat their customers badly is bad for the economy and bad for business.

    4. Tom 38

      Re: Money isn't everything,

      Only the autistic think a free market will solve all of life's problems.

      Obviously, when people think thoughts politically different to your own, they must have a neurodevelopmental disorder.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I say let them try to project their book sellers, perhaps this time they will learn that all they can do is delay the inevitable failure. I'm sure this story has been played out a million times through history and the conclusion is always the same - the better solution wins.

    Projecting a market is a good idea if there is a short term shock that could kill it suddenly. Long term protection though just results in a strangely distorted market which eventually collapses under it's own weight and normally not in a controlled way.

    I wonder if the cave man making clubs tried to get his market protected when the pointy stick was invented?

  7. Nigel Whitfield.

    Booksellers do deserve protection

    I'm sure some rabid free marketeers will be along to vote down in their droves, but I do think book sellers are a class of shop that we should be doing more to protect. A good local store is an great resource - I'm lucky enough to have two nearby that do things like readings with authors, events for children, promote books by local authors, or about the area, and also have knowledgeable staff who can help with many things. Frankly, they're good enough that I feel guilty when I buy e-books.

    There are still some things that I prefer to buy in hardback when they first come out, and for that I go to the local bookshop; sometimes it costs me more. But I think it's worth it.

    You might not think this, if all you ever buy is the latest blockbuster novel or recipe book, but for many people, books are a lifeline, and an important resource; and so too is the ability to walk into a bookshop, pick something up, and pay cash for it. Even if they don't have it in stock, I can do that in my local store, and while they'll ask for a name when they order in, they don't ask me to prove it.

    Why is that important? It's important because when the local booksellers are all gone, and the only alternative to online suppliers like Amazon is the supermarket, you're not going to find anything much beyond the blockbusters in places like that.

    You may lead a blameless life, confident that you have nothing to fear. But there are people who may not have mainstream political views, or sexual tastes, who find being able to access, for instance, gay literature, an important aspect of their lives.

    Drive the small bookshops out of existence, and there will be many people, I suspect, who will not be at all happy that the only way to get hold of, for example, The Carnivorous Lamb, is to give your name and address to a large corporation and trust they'll never hand over records as part of the next moral panic.

    1. Werner McGoole

      Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

      No matter how "good" they are, why would I go there to buy something they don't stock? Small places inevitably don't have as much stock. When buying books, the range available is quite important. That's why Amazon is a better solution, quite apart from the price.

      1. Nigel Whitfield.

        Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

        I go there to support a local business, because I think that's important. If they don't stock what I want, they will usually get it for me within 48 hours.

        When buying books, for me the range available right now is not the most important thing. What's important that they can get the thing I want, in a reasonable amount of time.

        I can't think of any occasions where my need for a specific book simply has to be sated within 24 hours or something calamitous will happen. And even if they don't have what I was after, I don't think I'd ever regard time spent in a bookshop as wasted.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

          @Nigel W our local book store will order for you and get it delivered directly to your home, if you want, usually within 48 hours.

    2. h4rm0ny

      Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

      >>"I'm sure some rabid free marketeers will be along to vote down in their droves, but I do think book sellers are a class of shop that we should be doing more to protect."

      Online selling, however, has done more to protect niche publishing. There are perhaps many books that would be out of print or perhaps never printed at all, if they had to go the traditional route of printing enough to be present in many bookshops in the hope they'd be found by the few who want them. Books are ultimately what needs protection, no?

      >>"Drive the small bookshops out of existence, and there will be many people, I suspect, who will not be at all happy that the only way to get hold of, for example, The Carnivorous Lamb, is to give your name and address to a large corporation and trust they'll never hand over records as part of the next moral panic."

      Tracking, I agree, is a valid concern.

      1. Al Jones

        Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

        "Online selling, however, has done more to protect niche publishing. "

        I'm not sure that I'd agree with that. For a start, Amazon is pretty useless at categorizing books (apparently, it doesn't need to be good at it, because it has made zero effort to improve it's search engine). So finding that niche is often harder on Amazon, than in a bookstore (especially a specialist bookstore that deals with that particular niche).

        And in the case of France, French language publishing is also a (fairly large) niche - protecting French Bookstores may also be a factor in protecting French language publishing over the long term.

        Amazon has certainly made self-publishing easier, which is definitely advantageous for certain types of non-fiction niches, as well as for fiction, where a certain gold-rush mentality exists, with lots of stuff thrown out there with the hope (or for the more deluded, the expectation) of wealth and fame.

        But there's no curation, which makes finding the worthwhile stuff harder.

        1. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

          Online != just Amazon

          I've bought a few books that would never have been written, if it wasn't for crowd funded publishing. Unbound is very good in this respect.

    3. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

      Maybe internet-only businesses should sponsor local stores to be "try-before-you-buy" locations. You wander in, try out a device, try on clothing, read a chapter or two of a book, then go and order through the cheapest online portal. The shop-front gets a cut of the transaction.

      1. Nigel Whitfield.

        Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

        I've pondered before the possibility of a "white label" e-book store, which could be simply skinned for local bookshops; a way to allow them to compete more equally - and to offer a value added service, helping those customers who aren't so technical, eg by allowing people to bring in their reader and have the latest book installed on it for them. A co-operative type model for that might also provide enough leeway though a mutally owned bulk purchase system for some of the independents to be more creative on pricing than they can on their own.

        Wouldn't it be good, for example, if a local bookshop was able to offer deals on a local writer or decide that they want to have a crime week, accompanying a reading by an author with a deal that gets you the new hardback, plus electronic versions of the preceding books in a series?

        I'm not against competition per se in the world of bookselling; I think that things like this could actually be very useful for both shops and readers - but it's unlikely Amazon, for instance, would allow that sort of thing to go on; they're not above strong-arming publishers, as we've seen. And, I do agree with h4rm0ny that online publishing has enabled lots of things to be published that previously would not have been, or would have languished largely unknown.

        Ultimately unlike many other areas of commerce, I do believe that books, knowledge, literature are so important, in so many ways, that it is worth seeing what we can to do ensure that they're available to all who want them, with as few strings as possible. And independent bookshops are, to me, a very important part of that.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

          > I've pondered before the possibility of a "white label" e-book store,

          It probably already exists.

          Another option, might be for Amazon to agree to allow local bookstores to become collection points for book orders. The advantage for Amazon is that they get more delivery flexibility. The advantage for the bookstore is that they get bibliophiles through the door and can hand a leaflet or a discount voucher to them.

        2. big_D Silver badge

          Re: Booksellers do deserve protection

          In Germany the larger chains all seem to use Adobe DRMed readers and their own stores (again Thalia and Hugenbubel).

  8. Nifty Silver badge

    The French have enough living space

    to own physical BOOKS?

    I've given up wanting to own physical anythings considering the cost of upsizing my home in the UK

  9. Bob Hoskins
    Facepalm

    Amazon should pull out of France

    Let the 5% of French people who can actually read go and try to find what they want in one of those quaint little corner stores. Maybe they can pick up a baguette on the way. Or order from Amazon Germany.

    1. ShadowedOne

      Re: Amazon should pull out of France

      Let me guess, you still call french fries, 'freedom' fries right?

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