back to article iPhone-stroker-turned-fandroid sues Apple over iMessage text-slurpery

A former iPhone fan is suing Apple over claims that its iMessage service withholds texts sent to her new Samsung mobile by her iPhone-fondling pals. Adrienne Moore has taken the fruity firm to court in the US for a (potentially class action) suit over the messaging service, which she says fails to deliver texts to former …

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  1. Gordon 10
    Facepalm

    Oh FFS

    Yes its a pain but Apple post a clear help topic on how to avoid this and there are dozens of third party guides as the complainant notes. Basically you just de-register your mobe number with iMessage before fleeing the platform. Admittedly they could make it a lot easier to do so - an unsubscribe message or similar springs to mind but its merely an inconvienience - I fail to see how you can attach any financial significance to it in anywhere but America.

    It annoyed me when I moved but how that translates in a lawsuit is beyond me.....

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh FFS

      Are those instructions buried somewhere in one of the 247 volumes of the Apple T&C's ?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh FFS

        Don't exaggerate. Last I checked the iTunes Ts&Cs are only around 30,000 words long. Consider it a litany one must learn and then be able to recant flawlessly before the altar.

      2. Don Jefe

        Re: Oh FFS

        It doesn't matter a fucking pin if it's in the Apple T&C's or not. The way to deal with this is a user issue and is therefore found in the user documentation/help.

        You're conflating issues.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Oh FFS

          > It doesn't matter a fucking pin if

          Why has the referenced comment been received so poorly? It sounds entirely correct to me: if you provide a service, its features (including the "off" switch) should be obvious and/or thoroughly documented. At least that's how I understand the previous post.

          1. Don Jefe

            Re: Oh FFS

            Great hatred for Apple exists here. Obviously, that hatred renders some commenters partially illiterate. This whole discussion is about a technical issue. Technical issues are in no way related to T&C's, which are legal matters.

            Which was my point, you don't put instructions on how to deregister your device in the legal section of your product documentation. Those instructions go in the user documentation, which is exactly where Apple put them. Funny Apple would put them exactly where they were supposed to.

            I honestly think anti-Apple zealots are every bit as bad as pro-Apple zealots. They're all a bunch of dumbasses if you ask me.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              @Don Jefe - She has de-registered -

              The article is about a legal issue. It is even published in the Law section of El Reg.

              The plaintiff did follow the instructions and de-registered the device. Despite following the instructions provided by Apple she is not receiving all the texts sent to her. Apple says that in order to receive those texts, the senders (not her) need to upgrade iOS on their devices or have them delete her contact and then re-enter it.

              This is a legal issue because she has a legal contract with Verizon and, by not delivering SMS text messages sent to her, Apple is tortuously interfering with that contract and reducing its value. If Apple fixes it's service so that everybody who follows the instructions, and de-registers their device, subsequently gets the text messages sent to them this lawsuit goes away.

              1. Don Jefe

                Re: @Condiment

                No. She is trying to turn a technical issue into a legal issue. If her lawyers argue that Apple's solution to the problem, deregistering the device, is inadequate that will mean Apple didn't deliver on their end of the contract.

                Again, that's not a T&C's legal issue. That's a technical issue where the extant technical solution's performance may not satisfy the terms of the contract. You can't put clauses that force you to give up rights into consumer contracts and you don't put technical instructions in there either. T&C's are consumer contracts and completely, 100% unrelated to the issue.

                Wrapping up, the crux of this is the interaction of technical support and consumer contract law, which has fuck all to do with Apple's T&C's. T&C's are not where you put instructions. You lot are in way over your heads.

                Who here has been sued for breach of contract? Anybody been taken to court over technical issues? T&C's issues? Who has a lawyer on staff? Weird, I only see one hand raised.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: @Condiment

                  As has been pointed out several times before, deregistering the device does not work. Some of the messages are still not delivered.

                  She has a contract with Verizon, not with Apple (she has deregistered). Apple's actions devalue the Verizon contract since she is not receiving the text messages being sent by other people. If it was Verizon's fault then they would give her a refund or free calls/texts/downloads but it is not Verizon's fault, it is Apple's. She is suing Apple for the devaluation of her contract with Verizon. If you look at a previous comment of mine you will see what she is demanding. She simply wants Apple to give her the texts that are sent to her.

                  Deregistering is not the solution. It does not work. She has performed every action under her control that she can, including deregistering, but she is still not receiving some text messages sent by iPhones.

            2. Paul 77
              Linux

              Re: Oh FFS

              In reply to Don Jefe

              I think "hatred" is a very strong word, and I am not sure thats it. I like some of the things Apple have done. Lets take, for example, the earlier versions of the iPod. They are great products, and I have two. But *why* make it so difficult to use from Linux? Why not actually document how the database system on the iPod itself actually works (maybe that has been done now, but it hadn't when I last looked). If there is a variant of iTunes for Windows, why not make one for Linux - I doubt its that hard, and I suspect it would actually be used by quite a few people.

              Then there is the subject of the App Store Police, and (as the Reg reported some time ago) the incident where someone developed an app, which was then basically copied by Apple and then integrated into iOS.

              All these little annoyances and frustrations add up.

              Anyway, just my opinion.

      3. davidp231

        Re: Oh FFS

        And even then in the 300 volumes of addendums.

    2. Annihilator

      Re: Oh FFS

      Well yes, but once iMessage realises that the messages are undeliverable, it should really default back to SMS.

      It is a bit of a devil of a system though - I've had iMessages "disappear" despite being registered as delivered.

      1. Volker Hett

        Re: Oh FFS

        It does! Even to iPhone Users who are far away from mobile data services, i.e. here in the middle of a small rural village with just over 500.000 inhabitants where Vodafone can't be bothered with mobile data and such :)

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh FFS

      "Basically you just de-register your mobe number with iMessage before fleeing the platform"

      And what happens if you flee the platform before then?

      I assume you aren't suggesting that everybody knows about this problem before they get a new phone.

      I would have thought this has data protection issues, Apple clearly has this persons number on a database so as to redirect the text messages to it internally. Customer no longer has a relationship with Apple and wants said number removed or at the very least to no longer be treated in this particular way because it is there.

      It seems Apple must have a legal requirement here to allow the easy removal of the number from the database or similar without requiring the consumer to still have access to the apple account and/or their Apple phone (I mention this as someone the other day suggested the solution is just to put your sim back in your apple phone, a solution which obviously can have a whole host of problems).

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: Oh FFS

        And what happens if you flee the platform before then

        Then you log on to the Apple website and unregister it from there. See for example:

        http://support.vodafone.com.au/articles/FAQ/How-to-deactivate-iMessage-if-you-re-switching-from-iPhone

        1. P. Lee

          Re: Oh FFS

          The perils of OTT services.

          As I understand it, sender's iphones hold an addressbook entry tagging you as an imessage user and keep redirecting "messaging" (what everyone expects to be SMS) to apple rather than the telephone number. However, apple will have no way of differentiating between a flat battery and a migrated user.

          I think this is seamless on setup. Therefore, this should be seamless on teardown - i.e. an "offline" imessage should revert to SMS. I suspect Apple will deny that their messaging app is primarily sms and user's shouldn't expect sms.

          While I can understand how this happens technically. It is far too convenient for apple to leave such a bug in the system to make migrated users unhappy. They should be penalised for it. If setup is seamless getting you into imessage, the exit should also be seamless. If the destination imessage user is offline, it should tell the message originator app to immediately revert to proper SMS.

          I'm not sure about the fine though. It seems to high for damages but too low as a punitive measure. It just looks a bit opportunistic.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Oh FFS

            > apple will have no way of differentiating between a flat battery and a migrated user.

            The user has de-registered so Apples server knows they are no longer part of iMessage.

            The problem is that Apple never thought anybody would migrate from Apple to another phone so once somebodies phone has you registered as an iMessage user they will always send the message to Apples server. What should happen is that Apple's server should tell the phone that the contact is no longer part of iMessage and it should use alternative means (SMS) to send the message but it seems they never built this into the functionality of the app.

            > It seems to high for damages

            It is a class action so the 5 million gets shared between everybody affected.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Oh FFS

        "And what happens if you flee the platform before then?

        I assume you aren't suggesting that everybody knows about this problem before they get a new phone.

        [...]"

        This, for sure. Since Apple isn't able to stand at every phone store in the world and tell people how to do this, they have to figure out a fix. It is not the consumers fault that Apple built their own stores or that Apple's messenger software is so poorly designed.

        Not to mention, what if your phone falls into water or breaks, prompting your phone swap? I suppose the person is supposed to buy a brand new Apple phone, turn off iMessage, then throw the phone away?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh FFS

      It translates into a lawsuit because even after switching off iMessages (which she has done) you still do not receive all the text messages sent to you.

      Apple told her (Para 21 of the complaint):

      Apple personnel informed Plaintiff that even though she had turned iMessage off in her old iPhone she may still not be receiving all her text messages because some texters using Apple devices may not be using the latest Apple iOS version. Rather than Apple coming up with a solution to a problem created by Apple, Apple’s representative instead suggested to Plaintiff that Plaintiff get her text message senders to update their Apple iOS to the latest version, or have them delete and then re-add Plaintiff as their contact, or have Plaintiff and these unsuccessful Apple texters start a new text conversation with Plaintiff.

      1. Steve Todd

        Re: Oh FFS

        So Apple HAVE come up with a solution, but her friends haven't installed it? This is Apple's fault why?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Oh FFS

          > So Apple HAVE come up with a solution, but her friends haven't installed it? This is Apple's fault why?

          Are you serious? You think an adequate solution if for the user to get everyone who might send her a text message to remove and re-enter her contact details or to upgrade?

          Any adequate solution should only involve her and/or Apple.

          1. Steve Todd

            Re: Oh FFS

            Are you serious? You think an adequate solution if for the user to get everyone who might send her a text message to remove and re-enter her contact details or to upgrade?

            You've misread my point (admittedly it was in reply to a post several lines above it). Newer versions of iOS fix the issue of not picking up the status change (i.e. Send via SMS rather than iMessage). The set of friends that she has, that use iPhones, that have contacted her previously via iMessage and are running an old version of iOS can't be a big number. If they upgrade (which costs them nothing) the problem should be sorted.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Oh FFS

              > The set of friends that she has ... running an old version of iOS can't be a big number.

              But this does not just involve her, this involves everybody who has moved from an iPhone to a non-Apple phone (which is why it is a class action). You can not expect her (or anybody else) to force other people to upgrade their version of iOS.

              If it was her service provider who was failing to deliver all SMS messages sent to her then she could complain to them and receive compensation in the form of free texts, free calls, free downloads, money back on the contract etc all of which has a monetary value. It is Apple that is failing and so she wants monetary compensation from Apple* for this. It is not her responsibility to ensure all her friends are running the latest version.

              *Actually she doesn’t want monetary compensation. She says in the complaint "money damages are not being currently sought as redress under the CLRA". She wants her text messages and she wants any text message sent from a iPhone to reach her. She only wants monetary compensation if Apple fails to do this.

              1. Volker Hett

                Re: Oh FFS

                So it can't be fixed with a software update because nobody can be forced to install an update?

    5. Irongut

      Re: Oh FFS

      And if your iShiny dies on you, prompting its replacement with SShiny, how are you supposed to de-register it?

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Oh FFS

      My understanding was that the Apple help topic solution doesn't always work - hence lots of forum requests for assistance with this. I seem to recall reading a few posts which said that Apple were aware of the issue but had no clue as to how to solve.

      Also once you've got rid of your iPhone it was quite difficult to de-register your mobile number.

      But agree, how this is worth anything beyond maybe a months airtime...

      1. Don Jefe

        Re: Oh FFS

        I have asked, here's what I have learned. If you don't deregister your phone before you change to a non iMessage compatible device any iMessages that were sent to you after you moved your number will be lost until you deregister the phone and the change has propagated through the systems.

        That's why some messages get through, and others don't, just like changing DNS or MX records. If you don't follow the correct procedure it'll sort itself out, eventually, but there's going to be some stuff that gets lost until everything is on the same page.

        Could this transition be a little easier? Sure, but there's a publicly available procedure, that works, costs the customer zero in financial outlay and less than five minutes of reading time. If reading is too much work, call the carrier and find out what's up. I just did, took less than four (4) Earth minutes to get an answer.

        Any of those solutions are a fuckofalot easier than finding a lawyer who wants to mess with a case where RTFM is the problem. But actually fixing anything isn't her goal now is it :)

        1. HollyHopDrive

          Re: Oh FFS

          Where the #£%& does the 5 million in damages come from? Has it left her unable to walk? Jesus... If she asked for $500 (and that's a lot for not receiving a text) they'd have probably just paid to shut her up. Mind you lawyers don't want to settle for the compensation for the actual inconvenience do they? You can't buy a new house/car with those winning amounts. I'm no fan of apple but I hope this gets thrown out purely for greed.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Oh FFS

            > Where the #£%& does the 5 million in damages come from?

            In order to get class action it has to exceed $5 million so the amount is for for more than $5 million.

            Since it is a class action (and not an individual action) the $5m is shared between all those who are affected by this.

            What she is actually asking for is:

            B. Damages to compensate Plaintiff and the Class members for Apple’s tortious interference with Plaintiff’s and the Class members’ contracts with their wireless carriers (money damages are not being currently sought as redress under the CLRA, but may be sought if and when Apple fails to comply with Plaintiff’s CLRA demand letter), with such damages to be awarded to Class members from a common fund Ordered by the Court to be set up and funded by Apple

            C. Restitution in such amount to be determined by the Court;

            D. A mandatory injunction requiring Apple to fix its iMessage and Messages service and application, such that these products do not continue to prevent Plaintiff and the Class members from receiving all their text messages sent to them for other Apple devices, and requiring Apple to deliver to Plaintiff and the Class members all previous text messages that were not delivered to them on their non-Apple devices as a result of the Apple iMessage and/or Messages service and application;

            E. An Order for injunctive relief requiring Apple to employ corrective disclosure that warns Class members and the public about the adverse consequences of using iMessage and Class Action Complaint Messages and subsequently switching from an Apple device to a non-Apple device, and instructing Plaintiff and the Class members as to how to remedy these adverse consequences;

            F. An order awarding Plaintiff her costs of suit, reasonable attorneys’ fees, and pre and post-judgment interest.

            G. An Order directing Apple to disseminate a Court-approved notice to the absent Class members, informing them about the pendency of this class action, and their rights in that regard;

            H. Such other and further relief as may be deemed necessary or appropriate.

            Sounds reasonable to me. She seems to be pissed off that she isn't getting text messages sent to her and wants to force Apple to fix its service.

            1. Paul 77

              Just wondering...

              How difficult it would be for Apple to make an iMessage client app for Android (and maybe <cough, splutter> Windows phone) devices... But then, I suppose they don't want to do it for the same reason they don't want to provide iTunes on Linux...

          2. Vector

            Re: Oh FFS

            "Where the #£%& does the 5 million in damages come from? Has it left her unable to walk? Jesus... If she asked for $500 (and that's a lot for not receiving a text) they'd have probably just paid to shut her up."

            And that is exactly why the $5 million (or larger if it gets class action status). This is an issue which Apple could fix but has no motivation to dedicate the resources required. If she had asked for $500 or even $5000, they would have paid her off and no real solution would be forthcoming.

            $5 million, on the other hand, is a strong motivator to fix the problem.

            I'm sure it's not all altruistic, but if she just wanted to get paid, lesser damages would have accomplished that goal.

    7. JeffyPoooh
      Pint

      Re: Oh FFS

      G10 helpfully provided a partial solution "... before fleeing the platform..."

      What if your iPhone went 'plop' into the Lobok River, and you had to run out to buy a new smartphone with zero time to plan ahe?

      Apple has failed. The lawsuit should get their attention.

    8. Benchops

      Re: Oh FFS

      > I fail to see how you can attach any financial significance to it in anywhere but America.

      This is in America so there's no problem.

  2. Randy Hudson

    Prediction

    The right to replace your cell phone with a new one every 18 months, regardless of manufacturer, will soon be known as Moore's law.

    1. Don Jefe

      Re: Prediction

      You've got the right to replace your phone every 18 hours if you want.

      1. davidp231

        Re: Prediction

        Technically you can upgrade whenever you like... you just have to pay through the nose if you aren't due for an upgrade, to the tune of whatever is left on the contract.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Prediction

      Apple's law is roughly every 12-months.

  3. jai

    is she sure?

    Could be that, now that she's left the church, none of her apple-wielding friends want to send txts to her :)

    But seriously - claiming $5m seems a bit excessive? If she's expecting to recieve messages that are worth that much money to her, shouldn't she be relying on a different method of communication than txting?

    And also, $5m for not researching how to switch phone beforehand - it's a lot of money to claim for what is essentially user error.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: is she sure?

      "But seriously - claiming $5m seems a bit excessive?"

      That figure will have been derived for her using a *very* complex formula by her ever-so-helpful legal team, and resulting (should they win) with 20% for her and 80% for them == kerchiiing!!!

    2. Tenacal

      Re: is she sure?

      $5m for attention.

      If you're looking to start a class action lawsuit then you're going to have a lot more people join you if they think they can get a slice of $millions rather than a few thousand.

      Also makes for better headlines for various articles on the topic.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    But seriously - claiming $5m seems a bit excessive?

    You don't understand a txt msg is a vital form of communication. Due to this shocking lock in business tactic from Apple this woman has missed critical messages that have left her a social outcast amongst her friends, because of her failure to reply to texts that were sitting on a dead mans server in Cupertino. You simply cannot put a price on emotional distress like that, but $5m is a good place to start

    1. Steve Todd
      Stop

      iMessage users get delivery and read confirmations. Such friends as she has who are using iPhones know that the messages are not being delivered and can use alternate methods like email. This is plain and simple greed, not compensation for actual hurt.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "iMessage users get delivery and read confirmations."

        Except, moron troll, if you bother to actually read anything you'll see that those notifications are actually created by the server and have no bearing on whether the message was actually delivered or not.

        All of the thousand or millions of texts that have been swallowed up by this black hole read as "delivered" on the iMessage service, despite not being delivered.

        Kind of like how Apple had their signal set to always show as 4 or 5 bars on AT&Ts network a few years back.

        1. Steve Todd
          FAIL

          Except as someone who actually USES the product in question I know that the server DOESN'T create those messages. They are triggered by the receiving app. What were you saying about trolling?

          1. Annihilator

            "Except as someone who actually USES the product in question I know that the server DOESN'T create those messages. They are triggered by the receiving app. What were you saying about trolling?"

            See my post above, had exactly that situation just last week - iMessage sent to wife was "delivered" but never received. It may well have happened to you - unless you expect a response, you don't know if it wasn't delivered or not.

            A quick google retrieves other examples:

            https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3443722?start=45&tstart=0

            1. Steve Todd

              @Annihilator - you're going to have to do better than that

              A link to a (not very large) forum thread, where most of the posts are from 2012 and such recent post as they are mostly say "resetting the network settings on the phone fixed it". That doesn't constitute proof that it's either a widespread problem or that the issue is at the server end not the phone.

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "But seriously - claiming $5m seems a bit excessive?

      You don't understand a txt msg is a vital form of communication."

      Not really the point. Apple is engaging in anti-competitive activities in a medium designated as a common carrier. Highly illegal.

      1. Frankee Llonnygog

        Re: Highly illegal.

        YANAL

        1. Don Jefe

          Re: Highly illegal.

          HTFDYK?

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