Feeds

back to article Kim Dotcom extradition: Feds can keep evidence against Megaupload mastermind a surprise

Megaupload founder Kim Dotcom has suffered another setback in his fight against extradition to America to face piracy charges, as the New Zealand Supreme Court denied his appeal to access the evidence the US feds have on him. The top court decided [PDF] that Uncle Sam's prosecutors are not required to disclose the evidence they' …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.
Silver badge

Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

I can't think of any other reason for the courts to reverse the decision. Unless the NSA pulled something and it's being used to persuade certain individuals to rethink things.

9
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

I wonder how many other countries were 'tricked' or coerced into signing extradition deals which require no evidence to be disclosed before extradition.

There seems to be a pattern developing here. Treaties are put in place and left to stand for a number of years. Then one day the US aggressively starts applying it's laws to foreigners in foreign countries.

I can only assume that the delay before aggressively pursuing foreigners on foreign soil was so they can get enough treaties with different countries in place before their real intent was revealed.

Now it will be too late for many countries, so the question is how many countries have similar deals with the US ? I know the UK is one of them. Whoever signed the treaty must have been blind.

18
1
Bronze badge
Holmes

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

I wonder how many other countries were 'tricked' or coerced into signing extradition deals which require no evidence to be disclosed before extradition.

To my knowledge, evidence is never required before extradition. All that is required is a valid extradition order.

To release evidence before extradition invites having an evidentiary hearing, then a pre-trial hearing, then a pre-trial in the country of residence before the real trial at the requesting country. This sort of continuous process can can clog up courts, cause never-ending delays, and bankrupt all but the most wealthy people from legal fees. it also introduces a loophole to prevent valid extraditions.

1
9
Silver badge

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

Yes he has worn out his welcome, but that is not relevant.

The judiciary is largely above public pressure.

2
4
Silver badge

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

"To my knowledge, evidence is never required before extradition. All that is required is a valid extradition order."

Your knowledge is wrong. If the extradition is contested then most countries require enough proof to show a demonstrable case (as in, criminal levels of proof) AND that it be for something illegal under local law.

And yes, a challenged extradition _does_ require evidentiary hearings.

As a background to this, it's worth noting that before NZ had the Supreme Court in place, the highest level of appeal was the Privy Council - who _frequently_ slapped down criminal cases that had been upheld all the way to that point, with harsh words for both NZ police and courts about standards of proof and poor procedures.

It's widely believed the reason for the government blocking access to the privy council is that it's easier to get the judgements you want when the judges are under your control.

New Zealand was only a few steps off being a Banana Republic and recent changes have brought it even closer there. Forget the stuff about being "non-corrupt" - the organisation which issues those proclamations (Transparency International NZ) is 100% NZ govt funded, utterly opaque and kicked out the most active transparency campaigners.

17
1
Silver badge

Pressure

I think it looks as if some back handed deals are going on.... Also I always thought that the accused is allowed to see all the evidence against him or how else can he defend himself?

Isn't it funny that the US is screaming out against Putin and the Crimea when they can't even get their own house in order when it comes down to justice.

12
0
Silver badge

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

Maybe, I can't say that he's a very likable guy but that's not the point. The USA is charging him with some nice big fat "crimes" mostly because he pissed off the movie industry by offering a service that is theoretically protected by the exclusions in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So now the world gets to see how Justice works in America ... but Kim's relatively wealthy so he can afford a better class of Justice ... this will be interesting.

"Why do *I* have to go to jail to protect *your* freedom? - Larry Flynt.

12
0
Bronze badge
Coat

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

He should have gone to North Korea.

No risk of him being extradited to their great foe.

Kim jong un. Kim dot com. Are they by any chance related?

1
6
Anonymous Coward

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

> Whoever signed the treaty must have been blind.

Don't know if they're blind yet, but my grandmum used to warn me that's the way I would be going if I didn't ease up on it. So yes, no doubt they'll end up vision impaired.

5
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

" Forget the stuff about being "non-corrupt" "

The NZ police may not accept bribes (yeah right), but try being on the wrong end of a case. Very corrupt, falsification of evidence and charges, intimidation of witnesses (including physical violence and planting of evidence), and of course denying people access to lawyers and so on, assaults in police custody (one or two have proven fatal - check if you doubt)

This isn't just rare or big cases either, this is day to day. Probably the huge bonus they get for a conviction "encourages" them to make sure they get their convictions even if it means going to lengths that may not exactly be legal.

7
0
Bronze badge

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

The last time I recall a country asking America for evidence before extraditing a suspect was a little place called Afghanistan, in 2001, asked to hand over a dude named "Osama bin Laden".

You might remember what followed that episode of standing on legal niceties.

3
1
Bronze badge
Childcatcher

Half the problem

|!¬ Kim jong un. Kim dot com. Are they by any chance related? q~;

As sumeone above mooted with banana republics.

To get a country in your pocket the way United Fruit did was to hire CIA directors to run their business. But bigger fish have larger fish upin their backs to smite them. Like Jedgar sodomising Johnson and Nixon. In every day in every way the USA is a corrupt police state.

Reminds me of England though : # (

0
0

Re: Worn out his welcome in New Zealand, has he?

"There seems to be a pattern developing here. Treaties are put in place and left to stand for a number of years. Then one day the US aggressively starts applying it's laws to foreigners in foreign countries."

Not quite true...if the US had applied it's laws, Mr Dotcom would have a bit more due process, with the right to face his accusers and the right to review evidence being used against him. It seems the opposite is happening here.

0
0
Bronze badge

"America - Fuck Yeah!"

How else was it going to go? I'm not a fan of either side, but I wouldn't be upset if Kim & his mates trounced the Feds on this one

13
1
Silver badge

Re: "America - Fuck Yeah!"

The fact is he didn't kill anyway, no one was caused physical harm by his actions, no one was proven to be out of pocket because of what he did... Is it worth extraditing him over? Not in my opinion, if there is a crime to pay, have him answer for the crime in his country...

Also we need to get precedent set for crimes like this... IF someone commits a denial of service attack on a server in the USA, but they are not in the USA, should the USA have jurisdiction?

In my opinion, cross border crimes should be tried in the country where the perpetrator was at the time of the crime being committed.

16
1
Anonymous Coward

Obama - Fuck Yeah!"

The fact is he didn't kill anyway, no one was caused physical harm by his actions, no one was proven to be out of pocket because of what he did... Is it worth extraditing him over? Not in my opinion

Obama wants Kim's ass and he will get it. End of story.

1
6

Re: "America - Fuck Yeah!"

Whomever downvoted this post and the next post just outed themselves to El Reg staffers as an NSA insider! Gotya! :D

0
5
Silver badge

a great day for freedom

Yes yes this is great news. This man is the Osama Bin Laden to corporate America and their incredibly valuable IP. Not just that but he is a security risk to all Americans or else the Department of Homeland Security wouldn't been so keen on stopping copyright violation would they? By the way I am just kidding and Americans who aren't right wing ideologues (sadly not a huge majority) are disgusted by the heavy hand tactics of our government in this case (actually a tiny minority probably because TMZ doesn't cover stories like this). Yes Kim Dotcom maybe scum but if the government spent as much time and effort going after the crooks on Wall St. as they do guys like him it would probably benefit the general public more. Of course they won't bite the hand that feed them.

20
1

Please get rid of this f**ker for us

He is building up a bad line of credit here with various individuals and companies, yet flies around in a chopper and take expensive holidays. Here is a bus advertising both his rubbish house music album on the back, and the ISP he advertises for on the side.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o257/robertosbourne69/KimDotBlob_zps2a5ab5b8.jpg

2
16

Re: Please get rid of this f**ker for us

I note your name is OzBob and not Kiwibob

9
0

Re: Please get rid of this f**ker for us

This issue is far from over. Please note the following,..

- KDC is setting up an Internet Party in NZ, to contest the election in September. As a non-citizen he cannot run but can be the party president.

- He has already fallen foul of election laws by trying to launch the Internet Party earlier with an actual party, which would have breached gifting and campaign laws had it gone ahead.

- He has claimed this weekend he has one sitting MP ready to join his party.

- The co-leader of the NZ Green Party (currently in opposition) has said he would overrule any extradition order for KDC.

- Under NZ's MMP system, a party with one or two seats (out of the 120 available) can hold the balance of power in forming a coalition government. The papers here are speculating what conditions a coalition deal with the Internet Party would involve. Care to hazard a guess yourself?

So, can anyone think of another occurence of a german starting a political party with a specific agenda and ending holding the balance of power? How well did that work out?

The mainstream media in NZ has mostly feted KDC, as have quite a few politicians. Now they are embarrassed at being caught out, so they are largely silent on the negative coverage and its the blogosphere (ironically) that is putting this information out there. Visit the excellent Whaleoil Blog in NZ for proper news and analysis.

So, thumb me down and boo and hiss me like I'm a panto villian but watch this fat f**ker try to buy his way out of his extradition with political favour.

0
9
Silver badge
WTF?

@OzBob - Re: Please get rid of this f**ker for us

> can anyone think of another occurence of a german starting a political party with a specific agenda and ending holding the balance of power?

Erm, was his name Godwin...?!

> watch this fat f**ker try to buy his way out of his extradition with political favour.

You mean as opposed to US Big Media trying to buy his extradition with political influence over a foreign country's judicial system?

7
0

Re: Please get rid of this f**ker for us

Although I do think it would be nice if he could also pay the people he owes money to before we put on the plane out of here.

I wonder what the flag for the Internet Party is going to be? That red and black one he has stashed away in his basement that Whale Oil mentioned?

1
0

Re: @OzBob - Please get rid of this f**ker for us

so you're saying he's on a level playing field in terms of influence? Then it just makes him look like a bitch whose whining cos he's losing.

0
2
Bronze badge

I note your name is OzBob and not Kiwibob

They have to employ someone to put the lights off.

0
0
Bronze badge
Angel

Don't mention the Americas

> So, can anyone think of another occurence of a german starting a political

> party with a specific agenda and ending holding the balance of power?

George III do you mean?

> How well did that work out?

Someone was poisoning him.

0
0
Terminator

New Zealand is not a real country ..

"The top court decided [PDF] that Uncle Sam's prosecutors are not required to disclose the evidence they'll use to attempt to secure Dotcom's extradition from New Zealand to the US at a hearing in July."

It's not as if New Zealand was a real country anyway ..

4
1
Silver badge

Re: New Zealand is not a real country ..

Sadly, that's my impression now too... I used to wonder at Australia, that how is it possible that Aussie pols are SOO ready to serve any foreign interests over their own country's, even to openly abandon their own citizens (Assange), I mean it was downright disgusting, what a real scumbags Australia's political elit is made of...

...but now I have to admit, NZ is practically the worst developed place to live if one is counting on his/her own civil rights, protection from foreign powers etc - as you said, it hardly seems to be a real country at all.

1
0
Silver badge

Re: New Zealand is not a real country ..

They are states of a sort. Just states within a United States!!

That's what happens when you allow a country to get too big and powerful. No matter how good it starts out, greed and corruption soon turns them into the local bully boy.

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Kafka - The Trial

Basically they want to prosecute him but they are not letting he see the evidence they have against him.

Also like those secret UK Court Orders protecting Celebrities and Politicians where the existence of the Court Order is itself not allowed to be disclosed.

11
0

Star Chamber business, obviously. McCarthyism of the 21st C.

8
0
Anonymous Coward

Wrong country?

If I were him I would have fucked off to Russia instead, like everyone else.

Quite a nice country, when it's not gobbling up the odd neighbour, with politicians that, for right or wrong, at least have some spine.

Pretty women and the absence of an extradition treaty with the US are a bonus. :)

6
0
Anonymous Coward

Disgusting..

Come one come all.. Watch Shon Key become the cuntry's most sexually active person.. While he and his cronies are bending over to take it from Uncle Sam (who touches all sorts of inappropriate things, never seen an uncle with so many wandering hands before!) they're screwing the rest of our once not-too-bad nation.

Can I register my shame at still being here in this land, or my sorrow and shame that we as a nation allow Shon key and his bunch of freaks (including those in that particular court (there is nothing "supreme" about it, more to be ashamed of!) to remain here? (Please customs/immigration guys, don't let him back in! Please, do the nation a favour and refuse entry to them!)

1
1

As a NZ'er

Guilty or not, likeable or not, I'm glad these processes and systems are getting a rigorous testing. I'm pleased that he has access to the funds to contest these things so that us peons will know how it works and what's valid and what isn't. Too often are these laws dropped like the proverbial ton of bricks onto some poor sap who has zero options to fight it. Governments have come to expect meek compliance from people and it's heartening to see him make them work for it.

9
0
Anonymous Coward

No news

Some in the media like to shape public opinion. The fact is that Dotcom's attorney gets all of the evidence once he has been charged. There is no conspiracy or denial of rights. He knew that blatant violation of copyright law was going to land him in prison. He's just trying to buy his way out.

0
0
Silver badge

Re: No news

Bearing in mind he won't be charged until he's in the USA, how does that help?

It was always convention (until recently) that the country seeking extradition had to show enough evidence etc. to convince the host country there was a reasonable case to answer. Exact wording changed from agreement to agreement, but the same basic principle. Now, extradition agreements often ask for no evidence. Just extradite because another country is asking.

Of course, European Warrants are just as bad. Greece says they want you, off you go. No real process, no real evidence, just a one way ticket. Once you're there....................

All these extradition agreements are going the same way as it helps the executive (of whatever country) and makes life easier. Justice? What's that?

1
0

Re: No news

Buy his way out? Who is he paying? His lawyers? Whaat a sneeaky trick!

0
0

nsa's role

could be blackmailing the decision makers ... in this case either the judges or those who control them

0
0
This topic is closed for new posts.