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back to article Apple and Samsung STILL in bitchfight over banning ancient mobes

Apple and Samsung were back in court yesterday arguing over the potential ban on Sammy products found infringing on the fruity firm's patents. Samsung claims Apple only wants the ban to strike fear into the hearts of telcos and retailers who sell Samsung products. District Court Judge Lucy Koh rejected Apple's first attempt to …

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Pint

Siri: I'm sorry I don't understand the request.

Siri, talk some bloody sense into these people.

We're doomed. Have a pint.

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I wish ...

these companies would compete by producing the best products rather than hitting each other with lawyers over trivia.

The real message is to small competitors: don't mess with us, we can afford more legal firepower than you can.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

Competing is not copying.

Apple has pushed all the boundaries only to be followed by Samsung.

Samsung are even open shops now, I wonder who did that first?

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Bronze badge

Re: I wish ...

>The real message is to small competitors

We're also more vindicitive...

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Facepalm

Re: "Samsung are even open shops now, I wonder who did that first?"

What? Are you claiming that Apple "invented" shops now?

Apple cultism at its finest, folks.

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Re: I wish ...

"Apple has pushed all the boundaries only to be followed by Samsung"

You really believe this?

Seriously, you REALLY believe this?

Jees, Apple couldn't even get a mobile phone antenna to work until they reverse engineered someone else's phone.

Apple have great OSs and GUIs, but tech innovators? Please...stop it.... I can't laugh any longer.

I wonder what would happen if all of the Samsung and Apple phones/tablets around the world suddenly lost all of the components made by the other company.

I'm betting Samsung would fare far better.

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Silver badge

Re: I wish ...

You mean who had the idea of selling their own products in their own stores?

Random example: Greggs. They make their own pastries. You can't buy them anywhere other than at a Greggs bakery. Sure it's not exactly high tech, but it's the same essential model.

The idea of product-exclusive retailers owned by the company that makes the product is about as old as the idea of, well, the entire retail industry.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

Re Greggs.

While your example is correct, i do not think there are many other mobile phone manufacturer that have their own retail outlets selling their phones. This might be true for every tech company other than Sony and Apple, and Sony probably were first because the Ginza store has been there forever.

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Mushroom

Re: I wish ...

Valid point, poor example.

http://groceries.iceland.co.uk/frozen-greggs-products

[Nuke icon because radiation is only marginally worse for you than a Greggs diet]

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

Apple do make the best products - Samsung copy them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

64bit processor - workable fingerprint sensor - soon to be seen on a Samsung near here.

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Re: I wish ...

Of course, the Motorola Atrix had a fingerprint sensor *long* before Apple did.

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Re: I wish ...

quote: "While your example is correct, i do not think there are many other mobile phone manufacturer that have their own retail outlets selling their phones. This might be true for every tech company other than Sony and Apple, and Sony probably were first because the Ginza store has been there forever."

Well, apart from the ecommerce websites, which afaik count as "online retail outlets" selling their own devices, of course:

http://www.officialhtcstore.com/uk/p_htc_store.aspx

http://www.nokia.com/gb-en/phones/all/

http://store.samsung.com/uk

and so on. I bought my last Nokia (the N93) direct from their website, prior to the iPhone being released, so that definitely predates Apple's direct retail offering of mobile phones (although only by a few months tbh).

quote: "64bit processor - workable fingerprint sensor - soon to be seen on a Samsung near here."

Both of which were seen last decade on laptops (aka "portable computing devices") from all sorts of manufacturers, including Samsung in 2002. Don't try and pretend that fingerprint sensors or 64-bit processors are innovative for 2013, please, you just look a little too desperate to prove a point that never was important in the first place.

Seriously, at some point I swear someone is going to claim that the Apple iWatch was the "first smartwatch" just because they honestly don't know any better. And that will make me sad :'(

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Re: I wish ...

Best at what?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

The thread addresses specifically and unequivocally physical retail outlets. So, that would make your response misdirection and wrong.

There is a word for what you just attempted to do, and I will let you go figure out what it is.

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Re: Fruity antecedent

"Samsung are even open shops now, I wonder who did that first?"

Not sure, but it wasn't Apple. I think the first manufacturer owned and branded technology shop I remember was ACT (Apricot) when they bought up the Tandy computer specialist shops in the 80's or early 90's. There were probably others.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I wish ...

"Apple do make the best products - Samsung copy them."

Maybe Samsung copies them, but Apple do not make the best products. That's like saying that The Register has the best words - absolutely meaningless.

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Gold badge

Re: I wish ...

"Competing is not copying."

Actually, yes it is. Competing is copying but offering products at a lower price. Competing can also be copying but with a twist so as to offer a slightly different product/service/experience such that people can choose between different realizations of the same concept and thus have the market decide which is best.

Competing is absolutely, 100% copying someone else's idea and doing it differently so that the market can decide which is better.

One vendor per market is called "a monopoly" and is the exact fucking opposite of competition.

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Re: I wish ...

"While your example is correct, i do not think there are many other mobile phone manufacturer that have their own retail outlets selling their phones. This might be true for every tech company other than Sony and Apple, and Sony probably were first because the Ginza store has been there forever."

So your statement is that "because it involves a mobile device" it is somehow a different idea worthy of protection for being "unique".

Get the fuck off my planet.

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Re: I wish ...

"Apple do make the best products - Samsung copy them."

Having used products from both companies: you're full of shit. Apple sometimes make a better physical casing. Samsung almost always have a better UI with more features, better multitasking and greater user freedom. Not to mention little things, like user swappable storage and batteries.

Samsung make the better products. Apple sue them in terror. Blackbeery makes better widgets than both of them, but they fucked up so hard in the past that noone will give them a chance on what they've got to market today.

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Re: I wish ...

"64bit processor - workable fingerprint sensor - soon to be seen on a Samsung near here."

64 bit ARM CPUs will be standard on almost every ARM device within the next two years. There is nothing about that which is "copying" Apple. It's a natural evolution of the market which was not started by Apple, but instead by a little company called ARM. Samsung's expertise will be needed to make sure those 64 bit CPUs get designed properly for a production process and then produced. Apple are the ones willing to take the market risk and put them in phones first. That is all.

As for fingerprint sensors, Apple arent' the first with a fingerprint-enabled mobile device, they won't be the last. They may be one of the few I can make work by swiping my penis on it, however. The fingerprint readers in my Windows, ChromeOS and Linux notebooks all seem to be able to tell when I am trying to swipe something that's not a finger. I suspect authentication-by-penis will be a feature Samsung don't copy.

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Re: I wish ...

"Maybe Samsung copies them, but Apple do not make the best products. That's like saying that The Register has the best words - absolutely meaningless."

Twatdangle.

That'll be you eating your hat, then.

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Roo
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Pint

Re: I wish ...

"One vendor per market is called "a monopoly" and is the exact fucking opposite of competition."

Trevor, say what you mean, please ! (kidding, it came over loud and clear - have an upvote and a crafty Sunday beer) :)

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Re: I wish ...

"They may be one of the few I can make work by swiping my penis on it, however. "

... bacause enquiring minds need to know!

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Pint

Re: I wish ...

No.

I was just pointing out that not many tech companies have flagship phyisical outlets. Sony has a lot of products, so it is more obvious for them. Apple's range is significantly smaller. Nor was I suggesting anything needed protecting, though judging by the articles published here about "perfect copy" Apple shops in China some time back, there is apparently be a need. Will "copy" Samsung shops appear in China *before* Samsung actually rolls one out, now that is the real question.

I find it interesting that Samsung has decided to get into phyiscal retail at a time when slmost everyone else is getting out of it. Will Samsung stores sell their PCs, laptops, refrigerators (I have one of those actually), insurance etc. as well in their stores?

Beer, ommmmmmmm

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Happy

Re: I wish ...

"Will Samsung stores sell their PCs, laptops, refrigerators"

...and printers, TVs, mining equipment, cameras/camcorders, BD players, washing machine/dryers, microwave ovens, life insurance, vacuum cleaners, ovens/hobs, ships, hard disks, ram, oil refinery plant, steel making plant, water treatment plant, credit cards, fighter jets, helicopters and heavy artillery.

Apple really really ought to consider those last three products before getting too heavy handed :-)

On a more serious note, if the bottom drops out of the consumer electronics market, Apple are just some company with a lot of money and no product or other expertise, while Samsung are into so many business areas it would pretty much need the end of civilisation for them to go under.

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Re: I wish ...

"open shops now, I wonder who did that first?"

Cough......Sony.......cough

(Not a clue if they did it first, but I just picked an example of a hi-tech retailer selling their own products in their own shops on the high street years before the Apple resurgence on the back of the Ipod....let alone being first with the idea of opening their own stores)

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Gold badge

Re: I wish ...

I remember "IBM" stores in my local mall when I was a teen...

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Bronze badge

Re: I wish ...

> They may be one of the few I can make work by swiping my penis on it, however

Seems like perfectly "fit for purpose". It does an excellent job of identifying dicks....

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FAIL

Re: I wish ...

"Samsung are even open shops now, I wonder who did that first?"

Shops: Anyone before Apple existed as a company.

Mobile phone shops: T-Mobile, Three, Orange, Virgin, Carphone Warehouse (this is just in UK of course, more abroad I suspect)

If your talking about ONLY between Samsung or Apple, then yes, obviously Apple opened stores first.

In a similar vein, Apple do telecoms now. I wonder who did that first?

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Re: I wish ...

quote: "The thread addresses specifically and unequivocally physical retail outlets. So, that would make your response misdirection and wrong.

There is a word for what you just attempted to do, and I will let you go figure out what it is."

So tell me, since you appear to have forgotten to add all your refutations of my position in your reply. If you explain why it is misdirection, and explain why it is wrong, then I'll be compelled to have a cry at being out-debated on the internet and you will win :)

Here's a starter: I am contending that retail as a term includes distance selling, thus "retail outlet" includes "e-commerce website" (as in your statement "i do not think there are many other mobile phone manufacturer that have their own retail outlets selling their phones."). Note that this is actually a comments section on a patent litigation story and thus any assumptions made should probably be stated specifically in order to avoid confusion.

Alternatively we can agree to disagree, which is also fine by me, or we can agree that Samsung are copying <whoever was first> the way Apple copied <whoever was first>. All are equitable solutions :)

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Roo
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The amount of time, effort and money Apple are putting into banning obsolete phones is awesome, Apple must be convinced that they are unable to compete in an open marketplace on the merits of their products.

Also it doesn't bode well for future innovation from Apple if they are aiming for bans on new phones that are largely the same as the infringing obsolete ones...

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Permit me to re-phrase that last sentence:

"Also it doesn't bode well for future innovation from Apple if they are aiming for bans on new phones that {Apple} claim are {not "colorably different" to} the infringing obsolete ones..."

But yes I don't doubt that Apple's lawyers would try and claim that any new touchscreen smartphone from Samsung running Android was largely the same as the infringing obsolete ones.

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Anonymous Coward

If you think it's all about these old phones you're wrong. It is about enforcing the fact that Samsung copied Apple.

Once you have that precedent you can expand it to include other products.

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Roo
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In support of AC...

"Once you have that precedent you can expand it to include other products."

I suspect people are registering their dislike of that cruel fact with their downvotes. Have an upvote for stating the unpleasant truth clearly. :)

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Devil

WTF......

Apple stop wasting the courts time with this crap. Theres most likely some poor slob who's maybe innocent sat in a cell waiting for a court to hear his case whilst you waste millions chasing after more when you have already won more cash than you deserve.

The court should set a time for this and all pending cases of say 90 days court time including appeals etc, any time over that would incur a fixed penalty of 1% of the companys takings in the previous 12 months. They would soon focus then and sort it all out real fast.

Either that or the CEO's given a set timescale to come to an agreement or the same penalty imposed......

How could they possibly work that fast ? for a start sack the patent lawyers and take one lawyer who is an expert in corperate law only for each side.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: WTF......

What motivation has Apple or any other inventor got for producing something new if Samsung will just shamelessly rip it off?

It is telling that the first big Samsung product flop for some time (their watch) was something they produced without copying some other company's product.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: WTF......

Samsung, stop wasting consumers time by stealing others work and attempting to pass it off as your own. Stop gaming benchmarks to make it look like you poorly made tat is better than it actually is...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: WTF......

What motivation do Samsung or anybody else have to submit new patents to the standards-essential set if Apple will just deliberately and knowingly rip them off?

Apple have already been found guilty of actual patent infringement and got off scot-free by presidential veto. Why not do the same here?

They've both burned ridiculous sums on lawyers, maybe that's a fair punishment for this spat?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: WTF......

This post is false. You have no fucking clue what you are writing about.

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whack-a-samsung-hammer

So a ban now will basically get Apple a nice rubber hammer to whack any Samsung phone on the head with?

If Apple thinks any Samsung phone needs to go away then all they need to do is argue it is like theirs and use this case as precedent?

I'm sure something here isn't right

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Re: whack-a-samsung-hammer

Samsung vs apple will end up badly for the consumers of their phones,

but hopefully it will mean others like HTC, Nokia & Sony have a chance to get back into the game... they just need to sit down and design a phone with the three features that made me buy a Samsung phone.... Large vibrant screen, Removable battery & micro-sd support. Style wise I preferred both HTC & Sony. but practicality wise neither hit the mark so I got an S4 and don't regret it at all.

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jai
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Re: whack-a-samsung-hammer

end up badly for the consumers

but, this has been going on for some time already, and yet, given the choice, you still picked an S4 over the competition, and you're happy with it.

so far, then, consumers are unaffected - it's only the people working in the law courts that must be sick of hearing all the technical jargon again and again each week.

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Re: whack-a-samsung-hammer

@ jai - not quite... yes, we have decent stuff now, but imagine what products might be out had these companies pushed the investment into R&D. Maybe the same, but maybe something even better, we'll never know.

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Re: whack-a-samsung-hammer

Fuck, another false dichotomy fallacy!

R&D at Apple AND Samsung is completely unaffected by how much budget legal department has. These two things are unrelated logically and in fact.

This is a regular and stupid argument proposed by netizens constantly, proving the thesis that many people are not astute enough to recognise their own stupidity.

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Trollface

Re: whack-a-samsung-hammer

"but imagine what products might be out had these companies pushed the investment into R&D"

But Apple are pushing the money invested in the legal wrangling into R&D. The research is into how to eliminate the competition, and what they are aiming to develop is a precedent.

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"The natural, inexorable result is an injunction,"

Suspect Apple's "legal eagle William Lee" is just playing dim, to see how far he can push his luck.

Yes Samsung may have been found to infringe, but the products have been withdrawn from the market and Apple have presented no evidence to show that Samsung are disregarding the courts decision, therefore he is totally wrong to suggest that an injection is the logical next step.

The worrying aspect of this is that this case has arisen because "The US Court of Appeals ordered Koh to reconsider her decision.", so it would seem that others in the legal profession have a poor grasp of things. So we can expect this case to rumble on...

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TBx

first to open shops?

If you are implying it was Apple, it wasn't. My dad says there were shops about when he was young, and he is much older than Apple.

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And the lawyers laugh all the way to the bank.

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