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back to article Cameron: UK public is fine with domestic spying

Recent disclosures over domestic surveillance and GCHQ spying on citizens aren't much of an issue to the public, according to Prime Minister David Cameron. Speaking to Parliament on the government's National Security Strategy, the Prime Minister said that while the media has made a stink about Edward Snowden's disclosures on …

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Anonymous Coward

If there was any doubt

he has dispelled it. Well, there is still doubt: is Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?

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Re: If there was any doubt

I don't know. My money's on stupid, because that's consistent with his obsession about foreign aid, and his persistent attacks on anything that might be termed core conservative values or voters. I suppose that's what you get by electing rich boy Oxbridge twats for you party leader,

I'd like the see the smug rich fucker burned at the stake.

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Re: If there was any doubt

Judging by u-turns to date, stupid. Here's just 45 of those that the coalition made in its first 42 months in power, albeit not from the most sympathetic source: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/28/coalition-u-turn-list-full

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Re: If there was any doubt

And people wonder why evil masterminds in American 007 type films are always British

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Didn't ask me

Didn't ask anyone I know either.

So what evidence did he base this theory on?

Simple, the members of the Conservative Party, average age 67, who don't really know the implications because they don't live their lives online.

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Re: If there was any doubt

"I'd like the see the smug rich fucker burned at the stake."

"it is a dangerous world and there are bad people that want to do terrible things to us"

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Re: If there was any doubt

""it is a dangerous world and there are bad people that want to do terrible things to us"!

"terrible things to me" was what the knob end meant. I suppose I am indeed one of the "bad people", but primarily on account of my intent to vote UKIP.

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Re: If there was any doubt

A gaping, yeast infected see you next tuesday.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If there was any doubt

Oh because Ed and fucking David or Tony blair or Gordon brown were/are any fucking different.

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Big Brother

Re: If there was any doubt

Sociopaths who consider you their personal golden retriever. Who is, moreover, slightly retarded.

Now go fetch that donut, or shall I sic the dogs in blue on you?

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[I]s Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?

Never attribute to malice...

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Stop

Re: If there was any doubt @Mary

Not on this story .... compare and contrast the stories on the front of the Guardian/Independent with Sun/Express/Mail. On the one hand 'Ed Snowden announces latest spying outrage' and on the other either 'Some horror story where intelligence services didn't spy enough' or 'Intelligence service success story'.

Now think which newspapers do more of the public read?

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Trollface

Re: If there was any doubt

"account of my intent to vote UKIP"

Good on you! I'm all for women being branded sluts and not seeing any more money being wasted on Bongo Bongo Land.

Nigel Farage will lead us out of the darkness! Viva il Duce!

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Re: If there was any doubt

"it is a dangerous world and there are bad people that want to do terrible things to us, and we should keep voting them into power." said the out-of-touch Prime Minister today from his constituency on Neptune.

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Re: If there was any doubt

"he has dispelled it. Well, there is still doubt: is Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?"

Yes.

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Re: If there was any doubt

You do realise this has been going on under both Conservative and Labour governments for the past 30+ years of IT growth.

Do you really think the PM is the man in charge of everything?

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Joke

Re: If there was any doubt

"And people wonder why evil masterminds in American 007 type films are always British"

Ahh if only Bruce Willis knew who Nigel Farage is....

The possibilities are limited only by your imagination.

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Unhappy

So what evidence did he base this theory on?

Simple.

He looked up his own ass and found no trouble there.

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Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

"Nigel Farage will lead us out of the darkness! Viva il Duce!"

What options are there?

Not voting achieves nothing because there's no de minimis or quorum of voters that has to be achieved to elect MPs. The three main parties have all shown themselves incompetent and dishonest, with a happy enthusiasm for treating government as a trough at which they take turns, and there's precious little to choose between their policies when you stand back. Voting for that rubber faced champagne socialist Millitwat will leave us with the same policies as the current lot, just with some Canute style window dressing on energy bills, and the usual Labour enthusiasm for more laws, more red tape, and higher public spending. Liberals have shown themselves as only fit to be a minority opposition party. And there seems to be universal agreement that Cameron is an unelectable, out of touch arsehole. All three parties routinely make promises that they don't deliver on, all three are big-state enthusiasts who think mass surveillance is the best thing since their last pay rise.

Farage may be a loon, and I can't see UKIP winning many seats. But by voting UKIP I hope to (collectively) deny the Conservatives victory until they have policies I will be happy with, and a leader who isn't an arse.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So what evidence did he base this theory on?

@ John Smith 19

Why would he look up his own donkey?

I don't know what nationality you are, but as he (DC) is English I think it more likely that he would look up his own arse!!

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Megaphone

Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

"What options are there?"

Tactical voting. Careful, considered tactical voting.

I've said some of this before, so apologies for the repetition:

A lot of MPs are only in place due to voter apathy. If turnouts were a lot higher, and people who don't like any of the big three were to follow two simple rules, the complacent big parties would receive a very bloody nose indeed. Don't think that spoiling your paper makes a blind bit of difference, by the way - it doesn't. Spoilt papers go straight in the bin.

Y'see, the argument that it's not worth voting because of the large Tory / Labour / whatever majority doesn't always hold water. If enough of the refuseniks were to do as I'm suggesting, there could be some serious upsets for all the big complacent three.

If you normally can't be bothered to vote, just forget about all the manifestos, broken promises, patronising bullshit and general piss and wind, and just follow one of these two simple tactical voting rules:

1: Vote for the most popular candidate other than the big three. Doesn't matter which party.

2. If it's only the big three, vote for the candidate that came third last time.

And remember this - it doesn't matter which party.

The last Home Secretary, Jacqboot Smith (no relation, thankfully) came in for some well-deserved contempt from El Reg. If those simple rules had been followed, she wouldn't have been elected. Here is her 2005 result. Stats are taken from the Electoral Commission's website (www.electoralcommission.org.uk):

Redditch had a total electoral roll of 63,150. The valid votes were cast as follows:

Smith, J.J. Ms (Labour): 18,012

Lumley, K.E. Ms (Conservative): 15,296

Hicks, N.S. (Liberal Democrat): 5,602

Ison, J.P. (UKIP) 1,381

That gave the Jacqboot a majority of 2,716.

63,150 - (18,012+15,296 + 5,602 + 1,381) = 22,859 people who were registered to vote but didn't.

Let us assume that 10% of these genuinely couldn't vote, as opposed to couldn't be bothered to. That gives us 20,573, rounding down.

Applying rule 1 gives us this:

Smith, J.J. Ms (Labour): 18,012

Lumley, K.E. Ms (Conservative): 15,296

Hicks, N.S. (Liberal Democrat): 5,602

Ison, J.P. (UKIP) 1,381 + 20,573 = 21,954.

So the UKIP would have won with a majority of 3,942. That's 1,226 more than Jacqboot's majority and without taking swinging voters into account.

Not even safe seats are immune from this. Here's the 2005 result for Gordon Brown:

Registered electors for Kirkcaldy & Cowdenbeath: 71,603.

There were 41,796 valid votes, cast as follows:

Brown, G. (Labour): 24,278

Bath, A.T. (Scottish National Party): 6,062

Cole-Hamilton, A.G. (Liberal Democrat): 5,450

Randall, S.R. (Conservative): 4,308

West, S.C. (Scottish Socialist Party): 666

Adams, P. (UK Independence Party): 516

Parker, J. (Scottish Senior Citizens Unity Party): 425

Kwantes, E.S. Ms. (Independent): 47

Sargent, P. Ms. (Independent): 44

Gordon Brown won with a majority of 18,216.

This time, there were 28,807 refuseniks. Taking off an assumed 10% genuine reasons leaves 26,826. All they would have had to do was vote for Ms Sargent - that would have been enough to dispose of Paw Broon.

And if that had been repeated across the country, the House of Commons would have looked very, very different. In fact, it would look like this if only half the apathetic voters had made the effort in 2005:

This was the actual result:

Labour 355

Conservative 198

Liberal Democrat 62

Democratic Unionist Party 9

Scottish National Party 6

Sinn Féin 5

Plaid Cymru 3

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3

Ulster Unionist Party 1

Speaker 1

Your Party 1

Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern 1

Respect/Unity Coalition 1

If 50% of refuseniks had pulled their fingers out, this would have been the result:

Labour 262

Conservative 192

Liberal Democrat 58

SNP 35

Green 25

British National Party 18

Plaid Cymru 11

UK Independence Party 10

Democratic Unionist Party 9

Respect/Unity Coalition 8

Sinn Féin 5

Independent 3

Social Democratic & Labour Party 3

Veritas 1

Ulster Unionist Party 1

Speaker 1

Your Party 1

Liberal Party 1

Independent Kidderminster Hospital and Health Concern 1

National Front 1

There would have been one tied vote between the BNP and UKIP.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert in political analysis. And I don't particularly like the idea of seeing fascists in the House of Commons. But the boot up the arse that a result like that would give all three groups of self-satisfied smug gitbags would force them to take a serious look at themselves and how they dealt with the people who they ask to put them in power.

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Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

"Now, I don't claim to be an expert in political analysis...."

Well you're setting out a stall for some form of analysis. I think your "rule 1" falls at a fairly early hurdle because a very large proportion of people don't vote because the three party system is so broken that they can't see the point. That's not going to change any time soon.

And looking at your parliamentary analysis, the outcome of your hoped for "50% of refuseniks to vote" would simply have been a Labour led coalition including the Liberals and a handful of other generally left wing parties. Would that have been any better? I doubt it. It would have been worse because all the damage that Blair and Brown inflicted would have gone ahead, and then you'd have "golden wish" gifts to the minority members. That sort of "golden wish" shit is why Germany is carping on at the rest of Europe over carbon even as it shuts down good quality, safe nuclear power plants, and tries to ignore industry screaming that it can't compete with the ludicrous energy prices.

So I come back to why UKIP makes sense. For both parties, they've ignored voters concerns about immigration and about Europe for too long, and they still won't do anything about either. Clearly the drippy conservative leadership are not listening this time, but maybe they will after a further five years on the house of commons cheap seats. The Labour party might want to also consider who they claim to represent, because they are in a similarly poor position, and currently look set to win the next election simply by not being the current government.

If in the meanwhile we have a bit of colour added to the otherwise drab, ineffectual house of commons, that has to be a good thing.

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Re: If there was any doubt

>Nigel Farage will lead us out of the darkness! Viva il Duce!

Cameron's latest plan to appease the back woods is apparently to pass il Duce on the right hand side...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If there was any doubt

"is Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?"

I'll give you a hint: he is the kind of guy who chains his bike to a bollard

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/2453508/David-Cameron-has-bicycle-stolen-on-shopping-trip.html

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Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

"I think your "rule 1" falls at a fairly early hurdle because a very large proportion of people don't vote because the three party system is so broken that they can't see the point. That's not going to change any time soon."

Er, that was EXACTLY my point. IF enough people who can't see the point were to follow those rules, they'd see one hell of a difference. And yes, I know it won't change overnight. But it is theoretically possible if enough people got off their backsides once every five years.

You may be right about a Labour-led coalition, but who would they link up with? Another Lib-Lab pact would only have given them 310 seats - still not enough for a majority.

"It would have been worse because all the damage that Blair and Brown inflicted would have gone ahead, and then you'd have "golden wish" gifts to the minority members,"

I don't doubt that. The idea behind this sort of tactical voting is not to bring in some sort of wonderful, caring libertarian government - that ain't gonna happen - but instead to flip the bird in a big way to the complacent incumbents and (hopefully) make them realise that they can't count on us obedient little sheep to vote how they expect us to.

On that note, you might like to know that if 90% of the refuseniks had followed those rules in 2005, UKIP would have gained 205 seats, followed by the Greens with 83, and the BNP with 79. The Tories would have won 77 seats, the Lib Dems 32 and Labour would have won all of 10 seats. Yep, ten.

"So I come back to why UKIP makes sense. For both parties, they've ignored voters concerns about immigration and about Europe for too long,"

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one :-) My view of UKIP is that they combine the worst aspects of President Blair's Politburo with the more invidious policies of the BNP.

But that is just MHO, of course.

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Re: Didn't ask me

The Conservative Policy Forum did ask me and others.

OK, mostly they asked about policing matters such as CCTV surveillance and stop-and-search. But inevitably, as a free people, we discussed Snowden.

Yes, average age 67, but poking our political bugles into public forums like this one, our consensus was as Cameron stated.

As to what Conservatives think of Cameron, is that fit for the esteemed Register to print?

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Re: [I]s Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?

"Never attribute to malice..."

When you are as stupid as Cameron, making decsions that affect millions of people is a form of malice.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: [I]s Cameron a stupid piece of shit or an evil piece of shit?

> Never attribute to malice...

They're not mutually exclusive.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

> So I come back to why UKIP makes sense. For both parties, they've ignored voters concerns about immigration

Aha. A bit long winded but you finally came to the point.

But I do agree with you: we're not getting anywhere enough immigrants to maintain a viable economy as the population ages out of working life.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

It's far worse than that, the choice is a illusion for most if not all parties; it is just a game of musical toilet seats on a broken system (sewer). This political sewer needs to be replaced with something which is not a turd statute transport; where career politics, party politics, and lobbying are regarded as disgusting treason; where people who pay for the support structures actually have say, so pay a far less via taxes (including inflation and red tape), not the illusion of say via self-interested 'representatives', con artist, fraudster, career politicians. We need proper law, not this fraud called legal. We also need to replace the deeply linked fraud based financial sector, so that never again can politicians have debt based fiat currency to bribe people to stupidly vote in bankrupt socialist ideology, corrupt politicians, and corrupt government, while ripping them off with inflation, fraudulent state debt, and attached debt taxation!

The only time I will vote is when I think it will lead to replacement of the current sewer with something better, otherwise it is a pointless waste of my time; I consider, but am wary that the UKIP could be another fake option.

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Re: If there was any doubt @Ledswinger

"'Nigel Farage will lead us out of the darkness! Viva il Duce!' What options are there?"

Well, personally, I'm probably going to vote "Yes" in the Scottish independence referendum if only because it will mean there will be no significant Tory influence in the running of the country I'll be living in for the foreseeable future (and longer than that if the Yes vote is successful, so that I don't have to worry about what the Tories are going to take away next, unless Yorkshire decides to go for it next).

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Pint

Re: If there was any doubt

Do you really think the PM is the man in charge of anything? Fixed :-)

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Pint

Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

"Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one :-) My view of UKIP is that they combine the worst aspects of President Blair's Politburo with the more invidious policies of the BNP."

So very much a "protest vote" strategy.

But it sounds like an effective protest vote strategy. I salute you (with a beer).

Next question is of course do those generally hacked off non-voters know where to find what the order across the finishing line last time was?

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Pint

Re: If there was any doubt@Mike Smith

Thank you :-)

I think a website or a book may be in the offing. Or both, plus a MyTwitBook plug. In the meantime, here's where to look:

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0020/105725/GE2010-constituency-results-website.xls

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Re: If there was any doubt

Not everything.

Most times not anything.

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All Politicians are liars

Just watch them lie every time they open their mouth to speak.

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Anonymous Coward

Just write your MP.

And tell them what prick DC is on this.

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I get the impression...

...Cameron woudn't recognise a 'man in the street' if he stepped in one.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I get the impression...

He'd get cleggers to wipe it off

You have to read private eye to get that one, Dave Snooty and his New Pals

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A "robust" understanding of evil

"Cameron woudn't recognise a 'man in the street' if he stepped in one."

Yes he would.

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Re: A "robust" understanding of evil

You're either lying or you're a politician yourself.

Now, which is it?

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Anonymous Coward

Oh really

So why are politicians up in arms over the antics of the News of The World spying on them ?

Don't like it do they when the shoe is on the other foot.

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"My sense is that"

He doesn't have any sense...

I know he would like to think that we think he and his minions are doing a really good job saving us from those awful terrorist.

The reality is the terrorist threat barely exists, if it were more significant he still wouldn't be able to save us from it and overall he is just pissing away vast amounts of our money, privacy, and liberty to support those lies.

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Anonymous Coward

the general public is largely in favor of the government

otherwise, they'd be storming the blokes next to that funny clock tower by the river, and knocking at my door, eh? QED.

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Re: the general public is largely in favor of the government

If HITLER had invaded and taken over ...

.... there would have been protests for WAGE INCREASES.

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Re: the general public is largely in favor of the government

The Secret State Police knew how to deal with your sort.

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Anonymous Coward

the pub reaction

I wish we could have the policies governed by the pub reaction! Er, it appears, we DO, as professed by the honourable gentlemen at the front...

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Childcatcher

Re: the pub reaction

the pub reaction!

Is he talking about the time he left his kid behind in a pub and everyone was horrified?

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Well if they have saved lives, and Snowden had really done damage, I'm sure the PM can point to some events that have been foiled

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