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back to article Windows 7 outstrips Windows 8.x with small November growth

Windows 7 beat Windows 8.x in trench-war battle for growing market share in November. Netmarketshare stats for the month found Windows 7 had increased its share of desktops from 46.42 to 46.64 per cent of machines. This meant it outpaced the Windows 8.x family, which gained just 0.05 per cent. Windows 8 fell from 7.53 per cent …

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Not pleasant reading for Redmond

So they will bring forward the date of stopping sales and support of Win 7 to .... next week?

Their whoe thrust is to get the world onto that pile of dog poo (IMHO) called Windows 8.1

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

"Their [whole] thrust is to get the world onto that pile of dog poo (IMHO) called Windows 8.1".

It shall not work. First choice (if you need Windows): Windows 7. First choice (otherwise): Linux. The sooner you start extricating yourself, the sooner you will be using free* software and the less it will cost you in the long run.

* As in "speech" AND as in "beer".

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

And what is the benefit of "Linux"?

What distribution offers 10+ years of support at a price lower than Windows?

What distribution runs the standard software most business users need?

What distribution runs my games?

What distribution supports my hardware and my usage pattern? Voice/pen?

What distribution is better at running my developer tools than Windows? Technical reasons not "Osama bin Stallman spoke to me in a hashish dream reasons"

Oh wait - none of them. So what IS the benefit once I strip fanatism and rhetorics?

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Devil

Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

> What distribution offers 10+ years of support at a price lower than Windows?

You only need that support because you would be like a bound and gagged gimp left alone in the bad part of town otherwise.

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@mmeier Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Right.That's why I have Windows 7. As soon as Microsoft will force me to "upgrade" to 8, I will learn Linux. And this is coming from a guy with a Windows 8 tablet and who is developing for the MS stack.

Windows 8 is fine for a tablet, but I will not have that on my desktop, because my customers will not have it.

I feel like Microsoft is making my life harder, not easier, lately. What's with the lack of color in Visual Studio, the terrible UI in Office 2013 and... Windows 8? It's not the right direction... Microsoft is going to lose the exact business customers you boast about.

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Re: @mmeier Not pleasant reading for Redmond

And what is the difference in developing applications under Win8 to doing so under Win7? None or none at all? Nothing has changed there. Modern UI apps where added. If your customers do not want them - don't build them. My employer is a JAVA based company - and we don't do Android for the same reason.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

A FUD and lies from the Gnuliban, as always. Companies depend on applications and many of those are Windows only. So having a OS that does not change critical parts every 3 month and does not consider 5 years "long term stable" is a good idea for a successful enterprise.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Nothing Enterprise loves more than vendor lock in. Someday soon Microsoft will be no better than Oracle. When the new sales start to stagnate the quickest first step to keep up that growth Wall St. loves is jacking up enterprise licensing fees. Microsoft has already started.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

"So they will bring forward the date of stopping sales and support of Win 7 to .... next week?"

They have a plan for that. MS only reports Windows 8 sales, even though these sales are of right-to-use licenses, which also allow you to use Windows 7. So Windows 8 "sales" are great. It doesn't mater for their purposes if people use it. However, investors may want to ask about what the ROI on the Windows 8 development and marketing will be (probably Windows 9 will be released before they turn a profit on Windows 8). But Investors haven't been put off by the money furnace that is Live, as long as there are lots of Office dollars left at year end.

But if the Office business is disrupted, which is inevitable, because no business last forever, MS is in deep shit. The Office business supports Live and probably supports the Windows OS development too. It also keeps the XBox business healthy too. XBox makes money, but the Office covers up the fact that every 5 years, you need to add a couple of billion in R&D for a year or two, and then you get 5 more profitable years. For example, the Xbox 360 "red ring of death" debacle cost MS about $2B in the first year of release. The XBox business by itself isn't that appealing, and is pretty risky if you have some R&D screw ups.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Yep no business would ever rely on Linux in the enterprise except for the majority of the Fortune 500. Linux after all doesn't scale. What's that you say Google? Quick look over there. FUD FUD compare other options to sworn enemies of the west, etc.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

@JEDIDIAH

>> What distribution offers 10+ years of support at a price lower than Windows?

>You only need that support because you would be like a bound and gagged gimp left alone in the bad part of town otherwise.

I don't know anybody that's actually called Microsoft for support, with the exception of having to phone in for Activation/Licensing issues. Now, since support was the only thing you disputed, out of several reasons given why Linux is rather pointless in this discussion, under what circumstances will the average user ever consider Linux over Windows? The reality of life is that for 99%+ of users, the only debate in desktop operating systems is still Mac vs PC, and even there Mac is still a (growing) niche market.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Oh companies do use it. They either have a huge support staff (Google i.e) and can do backports in house or buy RedHat/SuSe/Oracle and pay licence fees similar to that of a Windows box so they get 10+ years of guaranteed support for the OS version they install on the server

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

"What distribution is better at running my developer tools than Windows?"

Given that you have presumably chosen to rely solely on developer tools that run on Windows... none.

On the other hand, if you were to ask (with an open mind) "what distribution provides the best array of developer tools, at the best prices?" you might well come up with a different answer.

Many years ago, I remember reading about how Indian elephant owners use tame elephants to help capture wild ones. It seems a shame that they would thus betray their fellow-creatures, but that's how they have been trained and conditioned and it's not their fault. Similarly, very large numbers of people worldwide have been sucked into the global Windows ecosystem, and now feel (in some cases rightly) that their interests coincide with those of Microsoft. Even if that is true, I feel that they should perhaps examine their consciences.

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Re: @mmeier Not pleasant reading for Redmond

"I feel like Microsoft is making my life harder, not easier, lately."

A lot of people are getting that feeling recently. It's almost like a classic Greek tragedy: first Microsoft rocketed up into the skies, then it levelled off, and now it seems to be plunging back down to earth.

"Those whom the gods wish to destroy, first they send mad".

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

As said - JAVA Developer. I do not care what OS it is as long as Eclipse, Netbeans and the other Java stuff works.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

See, to take one example out of many,

http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/operating-systems-want-be-free-229529

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Example for what? The cost of Windows on a "brand name" box (HP/DELL/LENOVO/FUJITSU) is around 20-30€ since that is what you get back if you return a licence or do not buy them. To be payed every 3-5 years when I get a new box. Oh yeah, I'll go bancrupt on that and so will my employer. After all that is around 8-10€/year/employee. Even the Win8 upgrade, the first I bought in two decades, was around that price per box. And that was a "want" not a "need" upgrade, privat units ran fine with W7.

Since price is not the reason - what are the benefits again?

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

>As said - JAVA Developer. I do not care what OS it is as long as Eclipse, Netbeans and the other Java stuff works.

Well you or more likely someone above you made a somewhat wise decision to use a somewhat cross platform toolset (write once run everywhere hahahah) to get their business done. In your specific use case yes windows on the desktop may make sense (although those tools will run on RHEL just as well) and as you say the licensing fees are minor. If however some rabid Microsoft lover manager type above had decided to bet the business on Silverlight the situation might be different. Microsoft is an ok option option as long as you say, the OS doesn't matter. Once you bet your business all in on their ecosystem though things change. They aren't the worst vendor to be locked into (cough Oracle) but vendor lock in in general is so 80s and 90s and generally is not a good idea. Granted most companies have some lock in especially on the desktop but lock in on the back end is where they grab you by the balls. That is why proprietary Unix on non x86 is dying on its ass. Even management has wised up.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

>but lock in on the back end is where they grab you by the balls.

Also should say being locked into their technology for software development is also asking for trouble. Microsoft is keen to orphan technology and even whole markets whenever it suits them. Not to mention when you play in their sandbox if you do get too successful you may well be competing directly against them and they don't play nice.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

I do not care what OS it is as long as Eclipse, Netbeans and the other Java stuff works.

Which is why you spend so much time bigging up Windows, and Windows 8 in particular.

That all "the other Java stuff" works in various Linux distros better than under a Windows environment (easier to install, easier to upgrade, just all round easier to use, at least as far as Java can be said to be easy to use) seems to completely pass you by.

For someone who doesn't care what OS it is, you spend an awful lot of time insulting anybody who doesn't like Microsoft and their blatantly abusive shit. Maybe you're being paid to look the other way?

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Yawn, the old "you work for MS defence", a FossTard classic. I have a strong dislike for LINUX and the fanatics like Stallman or Kroah Hartman and the FSF "commies". Otherwise (as stated before), I love a good SOLARIS server and likely used more OS than most Linux fans used distributions. Best for each task - Linux never was.

And "easier to install" / upgrade? Where? All stuff these days come in nice packages that install easily on Windows. And some of the products needed (database - Oracle is a must) are very version dependent on Linux with the version it runs NOT the typical client kit

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

I "bought into" Java (invested privat time and money) in 1997/98 and started using it at work in IIRC 2001 (C++ / VB6 in that company before that, C/C++/Fortran/Step5/... in others). Liked the language and the environment a lot and still does. So while my current employer made the decision - I made the decision to work for him. Could have gone to a .NET/C# using company as well (had an offer) or "back to the roots" and C++.

And the big benefit of Java IMHO is not "runs anywhere" (It more often than not actually does). It is "fails everywhere". Ones a system is up and running chances are good an error on the customer side can be reproduced "in house" and debugged.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Yawn, the old "you work for MS defence", a FossTard classic.

Well let's face it, you make it easy.

I have a strong dislike for LINUX and the fanatics like Stallman or Kroah Hartman and the FSF "commies".

See what I mean? What the fuck have I got to do with Peado Stallman?

Ah yes. Nothing whatsoever. Going to call me a murderer whether I use ReiserFS or not, now? I notice you call anybody who doesn't dutifully hate the Penguins "fosstards" now, rather than "freetards". Got fed up of people throwing facts in your face about how much money those evil commie penguinistas spend on software?

And "easier to install" / upgrade? Where?

Clicky da little icon to install Eclipse. Done. Same with everything else. Of course I suppose the Windows 8 store is a completely different thing from a repository, and totally isn't a rip off of Apple's iStore which is a total rip off of.... repositories. You know, all your updates, under one icon. Click. Done. Or a "sudo apt-get upgrade" if you're the masochistic type, or talking via a 2400bps Telnet session from 20 years ago.

Best for each task - Linux never was.

See? You make it easy.

Keep on shilling.

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

What distribution offers 10+ years of support at a price lower than Windows?

---Ubuntu (LTS support + repositories still live from first version)

---RedHat/CentOS

---shall I continue?

What distribution runs the standard software most business users need?

---Most mainstream distros (LibreOffice/CIFS/Wine)

What distribution runs my games?

---You games ...? iPad? Xbox?

What distribution supports my hardware and my usage pattern? Voice/pen?

---Linux kernel has wacom tablet support, TTS (espeak) and voice recognition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_recognition_in_Linux take your pick)

What distribution is better at running my developer tools than Windows?

--Your developer tools? Eclipse has fully support for MSVC development?

Oh wait - none of them. So what IS the benefit once I strip fanatism and rhetorics?

--Really which planet are you on?

---Pot calling the kettle black, maybe?

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Re: Not pleasant reading for Redmond

Ubuntu guarantees 5 years not 10

RedHead LTS is commercial

Wine is extra effort so why use it instead of Windows? And business users need a LOT more than an office package. And quite a bit of office software demands MS Office.

Games are a non runner than, none of the ones I use run on an XBox or an iThingy

Wacom TABLET != Wacon penabled. The technology is different and drivers for the latter are "Alpha" at best. The support software is missing as well (no MS Journal etc) and the existing driver is "pen as mouse" not "pen with pressure support etc. NTrig is even less supported (and all Sony tablet/convertible units use NTrig)

The Wiki article on Speech Recognition has nice phrases like "currently a push is under way" and "It is possible, though complicated, for advanced developers to create Linux speech recognition software by using existing packages derived from open-source projects". Hmm, Win7 does a decent speech recognition OOB and if I need more Dragon Natural is quickly installed. And both work offline without Aunti Google listening in. The commercial software aims at a different target and costs extra money.

Dev tools BETTER than Windows was the request. If it is equal - why switch? Neither Eclipse nor Netbeans run better under Linux

So - No Benefits in Linux, numerous problems for my use case. I stick to Win8 for my clients and Solaris for the servers

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if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

... to some other Windows version (perhaps because everyone here uses Excel and Outlook, so Linux is limited to few desktops and server plant only), would you upgrade to Windows 8.*, or rather Windows 7? And how long did you think of an answer?

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Windows 8.1 - without the slightest hesitation.

Sorry - have I ruined your experiment?

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

W7. 1 Attosecond.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

If you had to migrate from your outdated windows to a newer version would you upgrade to the newest or the the next one down?

Its nothing to do with Windows8, businesses have always shown to be reluctant going to the newest version of Windows.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Depends.

Privat: Win8.1 without a second thought (well, actually I DID upgrade the day it came out)

Company: An upgrade needs to be tested with all configurations in use. That takes 3+ month so Win8.1 would be out right now. So I had to check if 8.0 is still available. If yes - Win8 otherwise Win7

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Anonymous Coward

Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Some of it is Windows 8 - no matter how good it is under the hood the initial screen looks like a kiddies toy. Also some of the limitations placed on 8 - such as how many windows you can have open on the desktop at once and their shape, size and orientation - were actually a huge deal breaker. Being told that you can just go to "Classic" desktop and install things like classic shell aren't really the answer - they're cludges and work-arounds.

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Linux

Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

If I had my druthers, I'd go to Linux and Libre Office and tell every one else to suck it as they are using a non standard file format for information interchange.

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Linux

Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

"businesses have always shown to be reluctant going to the newest version of Windows."

And there is good reason for that.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

There are limits on the number of windows I can have at the desktop in Win8? Where? I mean outside of Gnuliland where the liars life? Sorry the desktop behaves as it did in Win7 - open as many windows as your memory and screen size allows.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Actually there are simple reasons why smart companies do not use "newest version" of anything:

+ Smart companies TEST a new OS for compatibility issues before rolling it out

+ Smart companies keep the number of different client installations a small as possible to reduce the support problems like trying to get Olav Officedrohne to tell you WHAT OS he has installed

+ Companies that like to stay in business do not change running systems that still can be properly maintained. That's why there is a market for stuff like Red Hat servers with their "pay through the nose for 10 years support" system

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Linux

Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

> If you had to migrate from your outdated windows to a newer version would you upgrade to the newest or the the next one down?

As someone that actually does business computing, I would say whatever actually supports my applications. Despite the usual Lemming propaganda spouted here, it's not a forgone conclusion that the latest and greatest will even support your bespoke or 3rd party apps.

If it's really about those apps that aren't available for any other platform, then it really is all about the apps.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Win7, and our clients think the same. Everyone's being migrated to Win7, and it seems that the PC acquisition halt is still in place even after 12 months. Win8 has been out for a year, and it has been thoroughly rejected.

MS, give it up. Nobody except your shills like Metro. Deprecate it, after all MS is a master in deprecating stuff their devs use all the time.

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

Don't know your clients but ours (mostly small, insignifcant companies with 4 and 5 digit numbers of employees) change their computers every 3-5 years. And have done so late 2011 to mid 2012. All "new" units will get the same "clone" of software the current boxes have to keep helpdesk load down.

A limited roll-in of specialist maschines (Latitude-10 and Thinkpad Tablet 2) with Win8 has happened and Win 8.1 with some customers

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Re: if you had to migrate your business from Windows XP

It was Windows 98 actually.

Mandrake 8 (I believe)

..then Fedora (2 at the time)

..then Debian Sarge

..then Ubuntu (Fiesty was the first version used)

Currently Xubuntu Saucy

I believe Windows XP came out some time between Windows 98 and now.

I have a VirtualBox copy somewhere I use for testing.

O by the way, my clients are all windows shops.

Sorry, your point ..?

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Trollface

Er........

....So....er......Microsoft beat ....Microsoft......Go Microsoft!!

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Boffin

Re: Er........

Troll icon noted.

I did the sums. That's 87.16% of the market to Microsoft.

Or just under lucky 13% for the rest!

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Happy

Re: Er........

Thank you Velv, your calculations will now ensure that i slumber peacefully tonight......have an upvote.

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Re: Er........

As a Linux user, I bought Windows 8 (forced purchase) last week on a new laptop, to go with Vista (another forced purchase) on the previous laptop. I actually like Windows 8, just have no use for it.

Wonder what percentage of these figures were compulsory purchase by people who never boot the software.

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Re: Er........

Few. The number of Linux users on the desktop is around two percent and stable. So the number of "forced to buy the OS" people is likely very small.

Actually I should be zero since the oh so smart people using Gnuliban OS surely would know how to buy a unit WITHOUT a pre-installed OS.

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Re: Er........

"Actually I should be zero since the oh so smart people using Gnuliban OS surely would know how to buy a unit WITHOUT a pre-installed OS."

OK - I'll buy this one. Like, for every laptop and desktop model out there, there is a version with Windows and one without, right? Might be different in other countries, but in UK you might be lucky to get a handful of pc models offered without Windows. I'm not going to buy some random hardware combination by some random manufacturer of some random build quality - just so the machine has no pre-installed OS. So yes - I end up paying the MS tax because I am quite specific about what laptops (in general) I want and need.

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Re: Er........

In case of Notebooks: phone DELL/Lenove/HP/Acer/Asus/Sony/<Company> and ask for one. Business customers can order units without OS and do since many have a volume licence and build a special "master image" in house that they put on all boxes. And to those who ask the same service is delivered for privat users.

Sure, you won't get OS-less versions in MediaMarkt or the basic online configurator, they cater to Joe Average or small companies and that guy uses Windows in 90+ percent of the cases. And after the netbook problems they won't touch Linux with a 10 foot pole, the return rate of the Linux netbooks was extremly high

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M_W

That'll be the sound of the rush

Of people moving off XP and onto W7 before April.

In a large corporate, we have to realise that not everyone who uses a computer will have the skill levels we all have as IT Pro's. It may take us a couple of hours to get used to it, but many regular joe users will find Win8.1 daunting unless you give them lots of hand holding. WinXP to Win7 is less of a leap from a user perspective and allows a business to (I hate this phrase, sorry) have a "quick win".

Once Win8.1 becomes popular in the home environment - self 'consumer' training, and people are used to it, it will be an easier process in the corporate environment.

IMHO Win8.1 is very nice (Am typing this on it right now) but there are some very quirky problems with it due to the consumerisation of the OS. Such as it asking for Windows live accounts even in a corporate environment and the metro apps problem.

So - until Microsoft fix the own-goal apps issue (Metro apps can't use authenticated proxies like Microsoft's own ISA or TMG due to them using the WinHTTP stack rather than the WinInet stack - it is a known bug and was meant to be fixed in 8.1) most large corps will stick on W7 rather than get a deluge of calls saying 'it doesn't work'. Putting in a non-authenticated proxy isn't an option btw :)

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Re: That'll be the sound of the rush

In my experience the "non IT" people are the ones with the least amount of problems. Just like they had the least amount of problems adopting stuff like the iThingy.

The next easiest group are real IT professionals who consider operation systems a mere tool to be evaluated based on needs / use cases not on dogma.

The problem groups are Muscle Memory Mike and other "IT experts", the same people that moan and bitch when you change office versions etc because their "experience" gets invalidated.

And the biggest problem group are the FUD-boys from sector Penguin and the flat out liars from the Gnuliban movement that never tried but throw around "knowledge"

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Re: That'll be the sound of the rush

Skip over 8.0, install 8.1, set the user's preferences to boot to the desktop and set the start button to go to the app list instead of the Start screen, and continue using desktop apps. You're not forced to use Metro apps and they did back off on forcing the start screen down your throat.

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Re: That'll be the sound of the rush

Utter rot. As someone who has had to support users who have had to deal with Windows 8, most of them don't even know what Linux is, and those who do, just think it is something to do with programming. They hate the interface and find it a complete bane from their own experiences, not because Linux users told them it was rubbish. An install of Classic Shell + altering all the file associations so Metro doesn't appear generally sorts them out. They certainly aren't moaning 'experts' by any stretch of the imagination.

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