back to article Microsoft, HURTING after NSA backdooring, vows to now harden its pipe

Microsoft is scrambling to encrypt its data centers' interlinks – after a fresh Snowden leak suggested the NSA and GCHQ tapped into the cables and intercepted sensitive network traffic. Documents obtained by the Washington Post from the whistleblower show that Microsoft's Hotmail, Windows Live Messenger services and Passport …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

Bullshit

Microsoft will give the NSA access to any and all data it requires. This is yet another of their typically harebrained publicity stunts.

21
3
Anonymous Coward

Go Edgar Hoover!

Definitely. They only reason they didn't do it sooner was they were too busy plumbing the new Kinect directly into the NSA's Utah facility for foreign intelligence gathering, er I mean commercial spying and blackmailing... Go Edgar Hoover!

6
1
Silver badge

Re: Bullshit

Plus they get to charge for it now.

2
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Bullshit

There's complying with the law and there's ensuring that illegal tapping isn't possible.

Much of what has been done in terms of spying has not been legal.

8
0

Re: Bullshit

Microsoft, like other companies, is supplying only what is ordered by a judge, according to laws of USA.

3
11

Re: Bullshit

And Google and Yahoo, etc, etc.

0
0
Silver badge
FAIL

Microsoft [...] is supplying only what is ordered by a judge, according to laws of USA.

FALSE. NSA and co. explicitly intercept the data outside the US borders to circumvent US law and to avoid legal review of their actions.

The NSA claims that interception occurs outside the US to maintain a superficial semblance of legality. But I wouldn't be surprised if that is another white lie. It would be a lot cheaper and easier to tap the cables right in front of the US telecom buildings as opposed to some elaborate underwater tapping or having some daily petabyte data-transfer from the friends in GB.

9
2
Anonymous Coward

Re: Bullshit

Kinda. It will give any data for a price.

So it probably is kind'a sore - it is called revenue assurance.

1
0
Silver badge
Coat

Re: Microsoft [...] is supplying only what is ordered by a judge, according to laws of USA.

I think you'll find, that there are places in New York and Washington, where the fiber cables cross the border simply so that the traffic can be collected 'because it's crossing the U.S. border".

I've got my tin-foil coat, now where's my hat.

4
0
Anonymous Coward

'Microsoft...is supplying only what is ordered by a judge, according to laws of USA.'

Yeah, we heard that argument before last century with 'the Nazis made me do it'....

1
1
Silver badge

Re: FALSE. NSA and co. explicitly intercept the data outside the US borders

There is a big difference between "Microsoft giving" the NSA data and the NSA illegally tapping the network, in that case, MS probably weren't even aware that the data was being taken.

0
1

Re: Bullshit

"Microsoft, like other companies, is supplying only what is ordered by a judge, according to laws of USA."

This is funny isn't he?

0
0

What did you expect?

Windows users get all they deserve - closed source, deliberately vulnerable, obsfuscated code, bloated, overpriced and fundamentally broken. It's obvious that this almost ubiquitous mess will be targeted by every Nogoodnik, Government spook and script kiddie.

Snowden has done the Open Source world a power of good!

Remember - Microsoft have NEVER released a properly working product!

10
32
Anonymous Coward

Re: What did you expect?

I want to quit my addiction to Microsoft products... Regarding OpenSUSE 13.1 reviewed today.. Can someone offer a quick list of Pros and Cons of switching? Can I keep legacy Office, is there a built in VM for that? cheers

3
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: What did you expect?

If they hadn't then they wouldn't be in business.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: What did you expect?

And what part of the fact that all this snooping occurred on universal, internet-based services did your righteous ranting miss?

If you used Linux to access any internet-based service - Google, Microsoft, Yahoo - then you were pwned. Your silly rant against Microsoft has no relevance here, the eavesdropping was system agnostic as it was directed to your internet usage practices, not your system per se.

So go put your tinfoil hat back on, right underneath that dunce cap, and sit in the corner like a good little fool.

23
3
Anonymous Coward

Re: What did you expect?

Microsoft have NEVER released a properly working product!

Yes, but today they're allowed - the article headline makes up for it IMHO :)

0
0
Silver badge

Re: What did you expect?

>Windows users get all they deserve

WTF? So, users of software that is only available on Windows get all they deserve? Someone who makes components and has to use the CAD package their customer requires deserve all they deserve? People with a small business who use the accountancy software favoured by the revenue service get all they deserve?

Grow up.

11
2
Silver badge
Pint

Re: What did you expect?

@AC 22:49

Damn shame you are anon. I would like to shake your hand and buy you a pint.

2
2

Re: What did you expect?

Quote "If you used Linux to access any internet-based service - Google, Microsoft, Yahoo - then you were pwned. Your silly rant against Microsoft has no relevance here, the eavesdropping was system agnostic as it was directed to your internet usage practices, not your system per se.

So go put your tinfoil hat back on, right underneath that dunce cap, and sit in the corner like a good little fool."

Much as I detest the idea of even seeming to be applauding macroshaft et al

That definitely deserves an upvote :¬)

1
2
Trollface

Your title

I see what you did there.

3
0

The world needs more...

hardened pipes...

Free standing towers of data security.

Hardened against backdoor penetration by the NSA et. al.

May the Schwartz be with you!

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Umm...

Horse? Stable?

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Sorry they got caught, sorry because it'll affect their business. The things real apologies are made of.

6
1
Silver badge

Who is really sore here?

Microsoft supplied the air-conditioned pants, but it was us who got rear-ended.

The fact that stuff continues to come out of the Snowden leaks and companies as large and complicit as Microsoft pretend to react shows the gravity of the situation.

The fact they are attempting to apply butt-cream to this situation should have people screaming about both the initial penetration *and* the fact that the NSA still has its zipper down.

At this point, the NSA is figuring that No somehow implies consent.

Lube is an improvement, but in principle we are still being had against our will.

18
2
Anonymous Coward

Re: Who is really sore here?

That's too funny!

0
0
Bronze badge

Whats the point?

Microsoft will encrypt their traffic but keep the NSAkey so totally pointless exercise

7
1

Re: Whats the point?

What's to stop the NSA from going to its SECRET court and get a SECRET order to not encrypt private links and force MS to keep it all SECRET?

2
0
Silver badge

Re: Whats the point?

Because it's a lot of paperwork.

It's much easier to just ring up and say "You want to help us don't you? You aren't some sort of un-American pinko terrorist are you?"

0
0

Snowden is a hero. If he hadn't done what he did, anyone who accused the government of these shenanigans would be accused of wearing a tinfoil hat and being a conspiracy nut. Thank you, sir!

33
2

Calling "tinfoil hat" or "conspiracy nut"

What an intelligent and noble position that was.

Looking back on these times with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, our grandkids aren't going to be too forgiving of protestations that "it was different then" and "you don't know what it was like". The fact is: if you have *ever* called anyone a "tinfoil hat wearer" or a "wacky conspiracy theorist", you are a craven imbecile.

Yes, I did it too once. And I'm going to do what we all are going to do. Lie.

5
1

If he had only revealed extend of NSA activity in USA, then with a big dose of good will, you could say he did something defendable (although he sill violated terms of his employment). However, he is revealing foreign activities of NSA and other western intelligence agencies, and this is pure treason. I hope he will spend many years in jail.

1
32
Silver badge

Operationally, Snowden is a hero

@Slawek:

Snowden was bound by two promises. One was made to his employer, but the other was made to his country. The one to his country trumps the one to his employer.

Frankly, I am not entirely comfortable with the fact that he broke faith, but he chose the best of two difficult paths. He took a really big bullet for all of us. He did the right thing.

As a Canadian, I take a dim view of the notion that somehow my right to privacy is less than that of a U.S. citizen. To the extent that Snowden's activities acted against the U.S. state, they acted in the higher interests of the world at large. We established at Nuremberg that an individual state cannot command obedience to something fundamentally wrong.

What Snowden did cannot be treason. To be that, he would have had to betray his country and he did anything but that. In fact, it would have been treasonous to take the other course. The state and the country are not the same thing. Certainly the employer and the country are not the same thing. He exposed ongoing treasonous activities of people violating the Constitution he pledged to defend against all enemies foreign or domestic. The fact that the enemies can argue they are domestic (I have my doubts about the nationality of the ultimate perpetrators) does not exempt them from exposure.

The traitors are the ones exposed by Snowden and those traitors still hold the reigns of power largely because people like yourself defend them. The increasingly frantic damage control exercise is testament to the fact that at least in some of the corridors of power they realize they have royally fucked up and are on the verge of losing control entirely.

If, as it seems it might, the world returns to sanity and the rule of law, the people exposed by Snowden will be imprisoned and Snowden will be given a hero's welcome for braving the wrath of a powerful, murderous outlaw state.

Regardless of the unfortunate optics or what you think about his motivations, operationally, Snowden is a hero.

35
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero

There should be a matrix here.

The Rows:

People who think the government is spying on them

People who don't think the government is spying on them

The Columns:

The Government is spying on them

The Government isn't spying on them

There will always be people in B1 who alas distract the people in A2 from hearing what people in A1 are saying.

Actually, ignore that, I'm drunk and was following an idea.

0
0

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero

"Regardless of the unfortunate optics or what you think about his motivations, operationally, Snowden is a hero."

Heroes don't run and hide fromt he law. Sorry, but they just don't.

"What Snowden did cannot be treason."

You'll find its a pretty textbook definition of treason.

Regardless of what you think of the behaviour of intelligence services, the way Snowden acted was fundamentally wrong. When you have the heads of the 3 Brit intelligence agencies testifying publicly that Snowden has damaged their operational capability and that terrorists have learned & adapted from his leaks, the his actions cannot be considered justified.

0
15
Bronze badge

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero

"Heroes don't run and hide fromt he law. Sorry, but they just don't."

You do know there were NSA whistleblowers before Snowden. Oh, you don't, do you, almost noone has heard of them.

Snowden may or not be a "hero", but by running he made sure people would know what is going on. Staying in the States and trying to tell the world clearly didn't work.

":You'll find [Snowdens actions are] a pretty textbook definition of treason."

Sorry? Treason is "waging war on the US". What "war" did he wage?

5
0
Silver badge

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero@ TopOnePercent

"When you have the heads of the 3 Brit intelligence agencies testifying publicly that Snowden has damaged their operational capability "

The same people who allowed the government to lie about Iraq's supposed WMD, the same people who didn't stop the London bombings, the same people busy doing a good chunk of the NSA's dirty work in Europe and the Middle East, the same people who maintain one of their own people zipped himself up in a holdall and then locked it, and then passed away of natural causes, whilst they didn't think to ask why he hadn't turned in for work for a week....

I'm British, I don't think the UK security services have covered themselves in glory. The UK government runs the same mass surveilllance as the NSA, damaging public confidence and privacy, yet unable to achieve much useful.

If you want, go find another reason to pillory Snowden, but don't rely on the handwringing of British bureaucrats to justify the US government's utter contempt for its own constitution. The critical point of defending liberty is that the liberty needs to be there to be defended, not trampled all over in the latest edition of "The War On Something" (tm).

8
0
Bronze badge

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero

When I see people with such power laying it on thick in front of a committee that didn't so much as gently chew their socks let alone bite their ankles then I automatically get suspicious. I can work out where the weaknesses are in comms systems, so can the bad guys. Assuming that telling their techies what they already knew will affect things badly is just disingenuous.

These people have too much power and can gain access to too much without sufficient oversight. I would rather take my chance of 0.00001% of being injured by terrorism in my lifetime than have a 100% chance of having my personal information hoovered up and stored and also face a worsening risk of my banking details becoming known to criminals because the spooks corrupted the crypto and crypto systems.

1
0
Thumb Up

Re: Operationally, Snowden is a hero

Wish I could upvote twice - thank you sir.

0
0

The Arsonist

Just like Gordan Brown did when he wrecked the pensions funds (causing millions to lose the lot) and then later caused a meltdown of the economy - come back and pretend to save it like the arsonist that goes back to put out the fire and become a hero.

So MS let NSA in, and now we all know that, pretend they are the heroes to stop it.

Phfffttt.

8
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: The Arsonist

You forgot the selling off of the gold reserves. And the "Read my lips: No more boom and bust" soundbite. However, I wouldn't credit him with causing the (world wide) economic crisis all by himself.

1
0
Vic
Silver badge

Re: The Arsonist

> No more boom and bust

Credit where credit is due: he delivered on that promise.

How may booms have we had since he made that speech?

Vic.

1
0
Silver badge
Devil

Oh, the indignation!

"These allegations are very disturbing. If they are true these actions amount to hacking and seizure of private data and in our view are a breach of the protection guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution." Brad Smith, Microsoft's general counsel, said in an email to The Register.

Ooooh! Puff those feathers out good, there, Brad.

Although I don't seem to recall such indignation when Microsoft software was found phoning home with all manner of details about the user's machine when they did it.

7
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Oh, the indignation!

I'm happy to tell you all about my machine - in fact I often do, sorry - but more personal stuff I keep more to myself!

0
0
Bronze badge

Re: Although I don't seem to recall such indignation when Microsoft software was found phoning home

I'm pretty sure everything they did themselves was buried away in the EULA somewhere.

0
0
FAIL

Re: Oh, the indignation!

No No, Mickysoft thought the NSA would only spy on other peoples privare communications, not Mickysofts as well.....

According to attrition.org/misc/keywords.html, these are some of the phrases that the NSA like to snoop on. I'm not sure why Leitrim (a county in Ireland), Elvis, 15kg quiche or Bubba the Love Sponge would be of interest to the NSA, but there's no accounting for peoples curiosity.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Waihopai, INFOSEC, Information Security, Information Warfare, IW, IS, Priavacy, Information Terrorism, Terrorism Defensive Information, Defense Information Warfare, Offensive Information, Offensive Information Warfare, National Information Infrastructure, InfoSec, Reno, Compsec, Computer Terrorism, Firewalls, Secure Internet Connections, ISS, Passwords, DefCon V, Hackers, Encryption, Espionage, USDOJ, NSA, CIA, S/Key, SSL, FBI, Secert Service, USSS, Defcon, Military, White House, Undercover, NCCS, Mayfly, PGP, PEM, RSA, Perl-RSA, MSNBC, bet, AOL, AOL TOS, CIS, CBOT, AIMSX, STARLAN, 3B2, BITNET, COSMOS, DATTA, E911, FCIC, HTCIA, IACIS, UT/RUS, JANET, JICC, ReMOB, LEETAC, UTU, VNET, BRLO, BZ, CANSLO, CBNRC, CIDA, JAVA, Active X, Compsec 97, LLC, DERA, Mavricks, Meta-hackers, ^?, Steve Case, Tools, Telex, Military Intelligence, Scully, Flame, Infowar, Bubba, Freeh, Archives, Sundevil, jack, Investigation, ISACA, NCSA, spook words, Verisign, Secure, ASIO, Lebed, ICE, NRO, Lexis-Nexis, NSCT, SCIF, FLiR, Lacrosse, Flashbangs, HRT, DIA, USCOI, CID, BOP, FINCEN, FLETC, NIJ, ACC, AFSPC, BMDO, NAVWAN, NRL, RL, NAVWCWPNS, NSWC, USAFA, AHPCRC, ARPA, LABLINK, USACIL, USCG, NRC, ~, CDC, DOE, FMS, HPCC, NTIS, SEL, USCODE, CISE, SIRC, CIM, ISN, DJC, SGC, UNCPCJ, CFC, DREO, CDA, DRA, SHAPE, SACLANT, BECCA, DCJFTF, HALO, HAHO, FKS, 868, GCHQ, DITSA, SORT, AMEMB, NSG, HIC, EDI, SAS, SBS, UDT, GOE, DOE, GEO, Masuda, Forte, AT, GIGN, Exon Shell, CQB, CONUS, CTU, RCMP, GRU, SASR, GSG-9, 22nd SAS, GEOS, EADA, BBE, STEP, Echelon, Dictionary, MD2, MD4, MDA, MYK, 747,777, 767, MI5, 737, MI6, 757, Kh-11, Shayet-13, SADMS, Spetznaz, Recce, 707, CIO, NOCS, Halcon, Duress, RAID, Psyops, grom, D-11, SERT, VIP, ARC, S.E.T. Team, MP5k, DREC, DEVGRP, DF, DSD, FDM, GRU, LRTS, SIGDEV, NACSI, PSAC, PTT, RFI, SIGDASYS, TDM. SUKLO, SUSLO, TELINT, TEXTA. ELF, LF, MF, VHF, UHF, SHF, SASP, WANK, Colonel, domestic disruption, smuggle, 15kg, nitrate, Pretoria, M-14, enigma, Bletchley Park, Clandestine, nkvd, argus, afsatcom, CQB, NVD, Counter Terrorism Security, Rapid Reaction, Corporate Security, Police, sniper, PPS, ASIS, ASLET, TSCM, Security Consulting, High Security, Security Evaluation, Electronic Surveillance, MI-17, Counterterrorism, spies, eavesdropping, debugging, interception, COCOT, rhost, rhosts, SETA, Amherst, Broadside, Capricorn, Gamma, Gorizont, Guppy, Ionosphere, Mole, Keyhole, Kilderkin, Artichoke, Badger, Cornflower, Daisy, Egret, Iris, Hollyhock, Jasmine, Juile, Vinnell, B.D.M.,Sphinx, Stephanie, Reflection, Spoke, Talent, Trump, FX, FXR, IMF, POCSAG, Covert Video, Intiso, r00t, lock picking, Beyond Hope, csystems, passwd, 2600 Magazine, Competitor, EO, Chan, Alouette,executive, Event Security, Mace, Cap-Stun, stakeout, ninja, ASIS, ISA, EOD, Oscor, Merlin, NTT, SL-1, Rolm, TIE, Tie-fighter, PBX, SLI, NTT, MSCJ, MIT, 69, RIT, Time, MSEE, Cable & Wireless, CSE, Embassy, ETA, Porno, Fax, finks, Fax encryption, white noise, pink noise, CRA, M.P.R.I., top secret, Mossberg, 50BMG, Macintosh Security, Macintosh Internet Security, Macintosh Firewalls, Unix Security, VIP Protection, SIG, sweep, Medco, TRD, TDR, sweeping, TELINT, Audiotel, Harvard, 1080H, SWS, Asset, Satellite imagery, force, Cypherpunks, Coderpunks, TRW, remailers, replay, redheads, RX-7, explicit, FLAME, Pornstars, AVN, Playboy, Anonymous, Sex, chaining, codes, Nuclear, 20, subversives, SLIP, toad, fish, data havens, unix, c, a, b, d, the, Elvis, quiche, DES, 1*, NATIA, NATOA, sneakers, counterintelligence, industrial espionage, PI, TSCI, industrial intelligence, H.N.P., Juiliett Class Submarine, Locks, loch, Ingram Mac-10, sigvoice, ssa, E.O.D., SEMTEX, penrep, racal, OTP, OSS, Blowpipe, CCS, GSA, Kilo Class, squib, primacord, RSP, Becker, Nerd, fangs, Austin, Comirex, GPMG, Speakeasy, humint, GEODSS, SORO, M5, ANC, zone, SBI, DSS, S.A.I.C., Minox, Keyhole, SAR, Rand Corporation, Wackenhutt, EO, Wackendude, mol, Hillal, GGL, CTU, botux, Virii, CCC, Blacklisted 411, Internet Underground, XS4ALL, Retinal Fetish, Fetish, Yobie, CTP, CATO, Phon-e, Chicago Posse, l0ck, spook keywords, PLA, TDYC, W3, CUD, CdC, Weekly World News, Zen, World Domination, Dead, GRU, M72750, Salsa, 7, Blowfish, Gorelick, Glock, Ft. Meade, press-release, Indigo, wire transfer, e-cash, Bubba the Love Sponge, Digicash, zip, SWAT, Ortega, PPP, crypto-anarchy, AT&T, SGI, SUN, MCI, Blacknet, Middleman, KLM, Blackbird, plutonium, Texas, jihad, SDI, Uzi, Fort Meade, supercomputer, bullion, 3, Blackmednet, Propaganda, ABC, Satellite phones, Planet-1, cryptanalysis, nuclear, FBI, Panama, fissionable, Sears Tower, NORAD, Delta Force, SEAL, virtual, Dolch, secure shell, screws, Black-Ops, Area51, SABC, basement, data-haven, black-bag, TEMPSET, Goodwin, rebels, ID, MD5, IDEA, garbage, market, beef, Stego, unclassified, utopia, orthodox, Alica, SHA, Global, gorilla, Bob, Pseudonyms, MITM, Gray Data, VLSI, mega, Leitrim, Yakima, Sugar Grove, Cowboy, Gist, 8182, Gatt, Platform, 1911, Geraldton, UKUSA, veggie, 3848, Morwenstow, Consul, Oratory, Pine Gap, Menwith, Mantis, DSD, BVD, 1984, Flintlock, cybercash, government, hate, speedbump, illuminati, president, freedom, cocaine, $, Roswell, ESN, COS, E.T., credit card, b9, fraud, assasinate, virus, anarchy, rogue, mailbomb, 888, Chelsea, 1997, Whitewater, MOD, York, plutonium, William Gates, clone, BATF, SGDN, Nike, Atlas, Delta, TWA, Kiwi, PGP 2.6.2., PGP 5.0i, PGP 5.1, siliconpimp, Lynch, 414, Face, Pixar, IRIDF, eternity server, Skytel, Yukon, Templeton, LUK, Cohiba, Soros, Standford, niche, 51, H&K, USP, ^, sardine, bank, EUB, USP, PCS, NRO, Red Cell, Glock 26, snuffle, Patel, package, ISI, INR, INS, IRS, GRU, RUOP, GSS, NSP, SRI, Ronco, Armani, BOSS, Chobetsu, FBIS, BND, SISDE, FSB, BfV, IB, froglegs, JITEM, SADF, advise, TUSA, HoHoCon, SISMI, FIS, MSW, Spyderco, UOP, SSCI, NIMA, MOIS, SVR, SIN, advisors, SAP, OAU, PFS, Aladdin, chameleon man, Hutsul, CESID, Bess, rail gun, Peering, 17, 312, NB, CBM, CTP, Sardine, SBIRS, SGDN, ADIU, DEADBEEF, IDP, IDF, Halibut, SONANGOL, Flu, &, Loin, PGP 5.53, EG&G, AIEWS, AMW, WORM, MP5K-SD, 1071, WINGS, cdi, DynCorp, UXO, Ti, THAAD, package, chosen, PRIME, SURVIAC,

1
0
Silver badge

Re: Oh, the indignation!

Fourth Amendment? Surely, in the UK, what the GCHQ and NSA have done falls under the Governments much hated RIPA Act?

0
0
Silver badge

Way beyond the ointment stage

I had a conversation in the early 2000s with an IT whiz who used to work with various spooky people,

with a nod and a wink he said that he would not be at all surprised if it was found one day that Windows had an FBI back door built in.

If the Federal Investigation Bureau had a back door then it is almost certain the NSA would have access too.

An economy sized case of Preparation H please!

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: not be at all surprised if it was found one day that Windows had an FBI back door built in.

Of course it has, or at least a very simple way to install one on a target.

Windows update.

I think it has been established the MS can force updates, they just don't usually.

We know they have to do what they are told.

Therefore if an agency wants access to a machine, at the very worst they just need to identify the machine and order MS to update it with a backdoor.

(And this assumes of course, that there isn't already a backdoor installed on every windows machine installed since the anti-trust case mysteriously vanished).

This would also apply to all American controlled OSes. Apple's OS X and iOS, and Android.

Although, because those companies haven't had such a huge legal case vanish, I would expect a slightly more conservative attitude of their legal obligations.

Funny what happened to all the non US controlled OSes. (Billion dollar bung to extinguish one.)

0
0
Silver badge

The US claimed Snowden's revelations damaged its ability to fight terrorism

It is probably this type of loss of access that the NSA was whining about. Previously no one really thought about encrypting data traversing their intranet, now everyone will be doing it. Sorry NSA, but I don't feel sorry for you!

Now if we can just stop the US government from having "secret" laws. If you can't know the law, how are you supposed to know if someone telling you to comply with something is lying about there being such a law in the first place? Maybe there are no secret laws, and the NSA just lies and tells companies there are.

At least we'd know who to blame if Congress had to pass such a law openly and Obama had to sign it. The PATRIOT Act may suck, and I don't agree with it, but at least it was passed openly (only the "interpretations" were done secretly)

4
0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.

Forums