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back to article Julie Larson-Green: Yes, MICROSOFT is going to KILL WINDOWS

Microsoft's hardware chief has given the strongest indication yet that Microsoft has too many operating systems. "We have the Windows Phone OS. We have Windows RT and we have full Windows. We're not going to have three," Julie Larson-Green told the audience at a UBS investor event. Larson-Green looks after the "Devices and …

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Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

Microsoft seem to have totally lost their way.

Windows 8 is a disaster for those who wish to use keyboards & mice - hopefully MS might see the light, but I doubt it.

Windows 7 is stable & acceptable, but reverting from 8 to 7 is not straightforward for the man in the street.

Hopefully vendors will see the light & offer PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed with an option to "upgrade" to Windows 8.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

"Windows 8 is a disaster for those who wish to use keyboards & mice " I really don't see this, I've been using 8 since not too long after release. The updates with 8.1 are nice, particularly the start button's return. I keep having people tell me that it's a touch OS, but both me and the wife manage to operate it perfectly well without touch. I understand that some people just don't like the menu, but I just don't see that it's not perfectly functional with a mouse and keyboard.

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Linux

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

>>Hopefully vendors will see the light & offer PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed with an option to "upgrade" to Windows 8.

I'd rather see more vendors start offering a range of GNU/Linux PC's than Windoze. There's an abundance of choice out there like Mint, Ubuntu, Arch, Fedora, and Debian. Why are consumers forced to pay the Windoze tax in 2013?

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Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

>> "Windows 8 is a disaster for those who wish to use keyboards & mice " I really don't see >> this, I've been using 8 since not too long after release. The updates with 8.1 are nice, particularly the start button's return.

What on earth's the point of a start button if it only takes the user straight back to metrosexual land? People want a START M.E.N.U, not a fricken start button for christs sake. Not that I really care anyway because I rarely have to experience the torture of using the schizophrenic Windows 8 these days (thank the gods).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

@Anon 16:10

Your anecdotal opinion is irrelevant, because all usability experts have declared Windows 8 a disaster in UI design, succinctly summed up by the word 'schizophrenic'.

Windows 8 isn't even that good for touch either, with lots of 'magic spots' and a lack of contextual cues. If people are touching anything, they would be touching Apple or Android products. Don't take my word for it, look at the market share.

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Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

All the commentators also laughed at WP's "flat" look, but now in the (genuinely schizophrenic) iOS7 it's a great thing.

The final "war with Eastasia" step will be for Apple to successfully sue Microsoft over a patent for it.

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Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

>I really don't see this [disaster], I've been using 8 since not too long after release.

As I've been dealing with 8 since about then too, I feel qualified to say it's not only the least usable version of Windows I've played with in ages, but also the least stable.

It's also the least sensible when it comes to user data - easy user creatable full system backups are gone (I know the old backup system is there, but most users don't), BSODs now suggest effectively reformatting, and if you dare to boot from anything other than the single install of WIn8 on your single HDD/SSD in the computer, you're likely to end up corrupting the filesystem in some way (that damn hybrid boot thing still scares the bejesus out of me when I'm trying to handle customer data).

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Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

I use Windows 8 every day, but I don't really see it as any sort of improvement on Windows 7, really. Aspects of it are annoying with a keyboard and mouse. e.g. trying to double lick the top left icon on a maximised screen to close the window and accidentally swapping to another app/desktop (I'm not really sure what it is actually doing) and the transitions to start and fullscreen apps are really jarring. Put it this way. I actively enjoy using OSX, iOS et al. Windows is a necessary evil in my role as a SharePoint developer. Nobody knows what RT is for, not even MS, which explains why *nobody* is buying it. "The only bonus is battery life, other than that it is a pointless version of Windows Phone with no apps you cannot make phone calls from which happens to resemble Windows 8 pro." is what I've been telling everybody I know who also has no clue what RT is for.

I think the take-up of Windows Lumia phones would be faster if Microsoft seemed to act with more confidence. Given the way they killed off the upgrade path for the previous version of Windows phones, and killed lots of other projects after launch, and how they now seem to want to merge the codebases with RT (what effect will that have on compatibility for existing software/phones?) people are understandably quite nervous, no matter how much marketing spend they throw at it, and this translates to lower sale as people wait and see what happens all the while buying alternative devices.

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Bod

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

"There's an abundance of choice out there like Mint, Ubuntu, Arch, Fedora, and Debian. "

The vast majority of consumers would be utterly lost with any of these. More so the instant they are told they have to edit some config file and browse through dosens of linux forums to find out why they can't do something they can do easily with Windows (even Windows 8), or where instructions are written for Ubuntu but they've got any one of the huge number of other distributions. Or they buy some USB gadget but it won't work without recompiling the kernel or ripping drivers from a Windows install, hacking about with this and that, etc (I speak from experience here).

And god forbid they want to do some Excel work. Open Office is okay, if you want the equivalent of Excel 97 and don't mind it taking several minutes to launch and doesn't quite do what you're used to in Excel and isn't quite compatible with the latest Excel document formats, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like linux and use it for what it's good for, as a server. I would not recommend it to my parents however (fairly representitive of the average consumer).

In fact I'm even recommending Windows Phone over Android as the former would be less confusing and less easy to get into a mess or download something they shouldn't and generate a lot of support calls.

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Thumb Down

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

windows 8 a disaster for those who wish to use keyboards and mice? really? so you've never actually used it then and are just blathering about like an idiot. tell us in detail how hard it is to use a kb and rodent on win8. i've been doing it for months with absolutely no trouble at all. I can navigate it as easy as any other OS.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

"Microsoft seem to have totally lost their way.

Windows 8 is a disaster for those who wish to use keyboards & mice - hopefully MS might see the light, but I doubt it.

Windows 7 is stable & acceptable, but reverting from 8 to 7 is not straightforward for the man in the street.

Hopefully vendors will see the light & offer PCs with Windows 7 pre-installed with an option to "upgrade" to Windows 8."

As a "techie" I find your comprehensive review disturbing.

I bet your sitting in front of a mac typing this bile!

I use windows 8.1 and I find it is great, does everything I want it too and it doesn't look like it's stuck in the last century. Yes it’s different from earlier versions of windows. It’s called progress, like it or not! Everything moves on. Users will get used to the newer way of working and start to understand why it does “things” the way it does it.

When Apple updates iOS, tech journos proclaim them to be “innovative, forward thinking”. When ANYONE else moves forward, it’s slated and proclaimed to be duff.

MS does have a problem tho; persuading the people whose minds have been poisoned by your type, into actually trying it for themselves and making an informed choice without being biased before they even start. But if you are going to slate it without even trying it, all of your other opinions are moot.

I'm not a MS lover, I make informed choices and never listen to the complete and utter bollox which 99% of human beings spout on a daily/hourly basis.

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Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

I don't have any "trouble" at all with any functional computer operating system. Knowing the concepts is most of it and I can usually figure out what I have to do fairly quickly given a list of commands and their synopses OR... a graphical user environment. They are supposed to be discoverable ("intuitive" though I do hate that particular buzzword) and I must say that Windows 8 is poor in that regard.

Note that I already know how to mitigate the undesirable aspects of Windows 8, but that isn't the point. I very much dislike working with the Windows 8.x user interface though and THAT is the point. It isn't that people can't, it's a disconnect. A regression.

Windows with no controls. Deliberate hindrance of multitasking. Direction to spammy tiles and Microsoft's products, services, software store, and their "partners" who pay for the privilege. It's designed for lock in. Everything tries to direct you to using a Microsoft account.

An email program that doesn't do what most people need, POP3 email. No, instead you're supposed to abandon the old ways that they don't want to support and move to their systems. It's smack dab in the middle of the spammy tiles, one of the first things people see, yet useless to most people that use ISP email accounts. You can also still get that crummy Windows Live Mail client of course which is what most people need because of lock in (data migrated from Outlook Express from XP, into Windows Mail in Vista, into Windows Live Mail on Windows 7 and they just kept on that train). I can't believe I'm actually recommending Microsoft Outlook, as the only decent, functional mail client that I can still get their data into.

These assholes are already calling most of the programs people use "legacy software" in favour of "TIFKAM" apps, too.

Regressing to keyboard shortcuts for GUI functionality. There is nothing wrong with HAVING keyboard shortcuts, when you display them along side a menu entry, as a choice for people to use but expecting people to know them to efficiently navigate the GUI without a touchscreen is a serious mistake. I am thankful for ClassicShell, which saved me from having to upgrade my customers' Windows 8 computers to Windows 7 or Linux. Linux is easy to get set up, at least for me. Windows 7 is trickier because you have to track down drivers from the actual component manufacturers rather than being spoon fed by a PC vendor. Also, you have to employ "licensing tools" as Microsoft does not honour downgrade rights for consumer editions of Windows.

It regresses to command line utilities with ugly syntax for simple things like managing wireless networks, as well.

You shouldn't bandy the word idiot around like that, because your usage and workflow isn't everyone's. I wish I had a dime for everyone who has told me "It just takes time to learn it". It probably took me all of 10 minutes.

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Linux

Re: Which one ? Windows 8 with luck

"Why are consumers forced to pay the Windoze tax in 2013?"

Must agree. I recently bought a Lenovo, and found that the same machine was available in Germany, Austria etc, but bundled with FreeDOS, significantly cheaper than I could buy it in the UK, where the model was only available with WIndows 8. As I installed a Linux distro as soon as it was unboxed, it's reasonable to feel agrieved at this, not only for no choic,e but mainly for the UK being a patsy in this way.

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Why Windows is doomed.

Reading something unrelated, the penny finally dropped.

The reason Windows is finished is speed. They've stuffed it so full of lazy code and pointless bells and whistles that it takes an age to start compared to phone or a tablet.

So which do you turn to when you want a quick email or browse -- what most of us (mostly) use computers and other devices for these days ?

In the past I've bleated about slimming down Windows, but MS will never do that because they are stuck in Detroit mode, bringing out a bigger model each time (and we know how well that ended for Detroit). As for moving it to tablets and phones, well, I think that ship sailed with Apple and Android.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

My windows 7 box boots in about 12 seconds.

My windows 8 box in about 3 with UEFI or whatever it is called.

I don't think "boot time" is really going to kill windows.

That "lazy code" has mostly been ripped out with most developers now writing .Net applications the API's are fairly clean and fast ... the problem is crap application developers refusing to grow up and move with the times ... Micorsoft is now suffering because it finally told people with windows 8 "No more, we've moved on and so should you!".

Good on em I say ...

Merging windows phone and RT is the most logical thing Microsoft did in a long time and look at that no mention of Ballmer anywhere ... what a suprise !!!

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

7 was lighter than Vista, 8 was lighter than 7 and 8.1 is lighter than 8.

I might take you seriously if you had any idea what you're talking about.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Wardy01 & @dogged

Not everyone is running the great hardware you have and as we know Windows slows down with age unless you maintain it (and few people do).

Windows XP came on a CD, Win 7 on a DVD. I rest my case.

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Trollface

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

My windows 7 box boots in about 12 seconds.

I wonder what your definition of "boots" is?

So, win 8.1 is faster than win 8. The only time that would matter is if you were running from a bear.

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Def
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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

My windows 7 box boots in about 12 seconds.

I wonder what your definition of "boots" is?

I don't know what his definition is, but I can tell you mine.

From the second I press the power button on the front of the case, to the time I can enter my password is about 14 seconds for my Windows 7 machine. It's a fairly new machine (about a year old), but not top of the range by today's standards by any means.

The Windows Experience Index gives it the following scores:

Process 7.7

Memory 7.8

Graphics 6.8

Gaming Graphics 6.8

Hard Disk 7.9

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Filhart

Actually, Win 7 and 8 don't need 'great hardware'. I've installed both on older Core and P4 computers and they're noticeably speedier than they were running XP.

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JDX
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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Filhart

Have you timed how long your phone or tablet takes to do a cold boot? It is by no means instant.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

The reason Windows is finished is speed. They've stuffed it so full of lazy code and pointless bells and whistles that it takes an age to start compared to phone or a tablet.

Have you used Windows recently? It's not my primary operating system, but what you've said here is plain wrong. Of the three systems installed on my Macbook Pro, Windows 8.1 is by far and away the fastest, easily outstripping the OSX that the machine was made for. It boots faster, runs faster, and just feels damn quick all around. Similarly, on my various phones, my Windows Phone is way quicker than the others. Microsoft even made a big deal when WP7 was launched about how blazingly quick it was. I remember being at Mobile World Congress, where they had a challenge set up; if your phone can do anything faster than ours, we'll give you money.

And you can accuse it of being bloated, but my Windows 8 install was smaller than the previous Windows 7 one, and when I installed 8.1 I somehow gained back 10GB of space. It's still far bigger than my Linux install with everything thrown in, but then OSX isn't exactly tiny!

Given how diametrically opposed your claims are to my experience, I have to ask if you've actually used Windows on a day to day basis, or whether you're repeating FUD from the safety of another camp?

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Wardy01 & @dogged

Windows XP came on a CD, Win 7 on a DVD. I rest my case.

That's a really shitty case. Windows originally came on floppy disks, Windows XP comes on CD, therefore XP is bloated.

See? Really stupid reasoning, isn't it?

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @JDX

Of course, you have a point.

My bloody Blackberry takes 3 minutes from reinserting the battery. But its normal mode is standby which doesn't seem to use much power and starts it instantly.

You could leave a desktop PC sitting in sleep mode but my experience of exploding PC power supplies forces me to turn off at the wall.

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Pirate

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Oh, wait, do you have your hard drive encrypted, too? Sure it only takes about 10 to 20 seconds for the pre-Windows environment to ask for credentials, but I'm pretty sure any time you see "pre-Windows environment", it's probably Linux. After I authenticate for that, it's another minute or more before I get the Windows 7 login. And my Win PC is a gaming beast. That's pretty much all Windows is good for. IMHO

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

"And you can accuse it of being bloated, but my Windows 8 install was smaller than the previous Windows 7 one, and when I installed 8.1 I somehow gained back 10GB of space. It's still far bigger than my Linux install with everything thrown in, but then OSX isn't exactly tiny!"

I just tried to delete everything from a Windows 7 computer to get it ready to sell. It never had that much stuff on it in the first place since I was using it as an HTPC. I went to add/remove programs are removed all the 3rd party stuff. Then I created a new admin account and deleted the old one (deleting the files, too). The end result is that 80 GIGABYTES (?!?!) of the hard drive was still in use after my effort to delete all non-Windows stuff.

Meanwhile, I'm only using 60GB of space on my Mac's main drive, and that includes 30GB of non-stock software and 15GB of my documents, pictures, etc. If I wanted, I could spend less than 5 minutes to delete all the software and files and end up with a perfectly good, clean-ish install of OS X that takes up less than 15GB, i.e., 20% of my "cleaned" Windows install.

It seems that even if Windows doesn't start out bloated, that's where it ends up.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

>> The reason Windows is finished is speed. They've stuffed it so full of lazy code and pointless bells and whistles that it takes an age to start compared to phone or a tablet.

Case in point, my Arch Linux install boots to XFCE desktop in approximately 4 seconds from grub. Windows 8 takes considerably longer despite turning off half the services, disabling prefetch / indexing, etc. Probably about 10 seconds before the desktop is usable. That's from an SSD of course.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

>> My windows 8 box in about 3 with UEFI or whatever it is called.

Using a cached kernel. Try dual booting or updating Windows, It'll triple that time easy. I'm running on a i5 3570k @ 4ghz, 8gb dual channel 1600mhz ram, a Vertex 4 SSD, and 10 seconds is average to boot Windows 8, not including post / bios delay. So I call BS on 3 seconds.

>>I don't think "boot time" is really going to kill windows.

No but system requirements will. Take a look at the 32gb Surface 2 tablet. Guess how much of that 32gb is used by the OS? Then there's battery life, lack of app ecosystem, and dearth of features and customisation.

In 10 years or less I reckon the only place you'll see PC still running Windoze will be in the enterprise, and even they'll be phasing them out by then.

>>That "lazy code" has mostly been ripped out with most developers now writing .Net applications the API's are fairly clean and fast.

Nobody uses .Net unless they want to be locked down to proprietary Windows platforms. Both in development, and in distribution. That's not to mention the fact that it's dog slow.

No AAA apps or games use .Net - That's a fact.

>>Merging windows phone and RT is the most logical thing Microsoft did in a long time

Yes I agree. Those Fisher Price tiles should be kept on Micro$haft's Phones and Tablets, not on the desktop.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

>> From the second I press the power button on the front of the case, to the time I can enter my password is about 14 seconds for my Windows 7 machine

That's not booted. The desktop isn't even loaded yet, let alone usable. Turn on automatic login, then time it again. All Windows versions are slow including 8 once you discount kernel caching and such nonsense.

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JDX
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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @JDX

"You could leave a desktop PC sitting in sleep mode but my experience of exploding PC power supplies forces me to turn off at the wall."

Yes, and the reason you need to do a full shutdown rather than hibernate is? Rebooting from hibernate is near-instant in many cases. For me it's a sluggish kind of instant, but then my storage isn't entirely solid state like a phone/tablet.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

AC from 19:16 25th November.

What? You don't know how to delete non-Windows stuff from a disk? My Win 7 machines, with Office and some third party apps are at about 12GB.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @ Greg J Preece

" Windows originally came on floppy disks, Windows XP comes on CD, therefore XP is bloated."

Thanks. That's precisely the point I was making.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

"What? You don't know how to delete non-Windows stuff from a disk? My Win 7 machines, with Office and some third party apps are at about 12GB."

Apparently I don't. Where did I go wrong? I used the "Add/remove programs" tool to remove all my 3rd party software (i.e., I kept all the hotfixes and updates and patches and whatnot, for fear of ruining the system if I uninstalled them). I used the account management control panel to delete my account and all its files (after creating a new one and switching to it, obviously).

I admit, it's been a long time since I've used Windows as my primary operating system and I'm not the expert I might have once been, but what else could a person with a reasonable level of computer competency be expected to do?

I have a genuine interest in this since the computer isn't sold yet and I'm somewhat worried that the 80GB of data that's left over on the machine might include some of my personal information.

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Windows

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

That definition of boot is just plain incorrect. That's the time it takes for the machine to be usable from a warm condition [basically reloading a memory image]; the time boot to boot is the time for a complete startup of the operating system. This matters because you're not comparing apples with apples; you can hibernate/suspend most operating systems and get similar times to 8's "boot" aka resume. FWIW, my desktop [not W8, which OS doesn't matter] takes about 1-2 seconds for a resume. It was a great MS marketing trick though.

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Re: Windows XP came on a CD, Win 7 on a DVD. I rest my case.

and Windows 8 on a BD.

Completed that for you!!!

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

>>That "lazy code" has mostly been ripped out with most developers now writing .Net applications the API's are fairly clean and fast.

Nobody uses .Net unless they want to be locked down to proprietary Windows platforms are gluttons for punishment. Both in development, and in distribution. That's not to mention the fact that it's dog slow.

FTFY!

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Remove the hibernation file and the index... That'll buy you back a LOT of drive. Especially the hiberfile.... It takes as much space as you have installed ram (Duh...)

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

"The end result is that 80 GIGABYTES (?!?!) of the hard drive was still in use after my effort to delete all non-Windows stuff."

very poor effort then, if I clean out everything , win7 uses about 20gb.

you are holding it wrong.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

amazing stuff ! saving 6 seconds of your precious time waiting for Windows to load.

I bet you drink your coffee in record time too. Life in the fast lane .

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Remove the hibernation file. Remove the index file. Remove the System Protection files. Remove the installation files. That's a start...

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

You should take a read through minimsft sometime: his focus was on slimming down Microsoft itself. He argued that Microsoft was bloated; I guess the software took on the behaviour of its development environment.

My pet peeve about MS Win7 is the way it'll take time out to scrub through memory and halt everything while it flushes the (unchanged) video buffers ... it treats 2 gig of RAM the way MS WinNT 3 treated 12 MB - insufficient memory for uninterrupted running.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Yeah, under the hood Windows 8 sounds like a bit of an improvement over Windows 7. Unfortunately they've lumbered it with that shitty, annoying, hard to use fucking interface, which is why I am sticking with 7 regardless of the underlying improvements.

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@Fihart

Use hibernate instead of sleep, or the hybrid method where you just use sleep and don't worry about turning off at the wall. It will just switch from sleep to hibernate when the battery runs lower than a threshold value. Waking up from hibernate is only a second or two with a conventional disk and virtually indistinguishable from waking from sleep with a solid state one. This way, I reserve reboots for patch Tuesdays as it does take a while. Around a couple of minutes in my case until I get a browser home page up or another application loading - time to password entry is much shorter, but I don't regard that as a useful measure as it is obviously still booting as the password is entered and well beyond.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Filhart

That's interesting as the Corporation I work for has gone from XP to 7, and the thing we noticed most was on the same hardware our computers needed more RAM to perform the same with 7 as when we were on XP.

Office and IE were upgraded during that process. Nonetheless, Microsoft has full control of the OS and Office software for about ever and if they can't increase code efficiency while adding new options with all the system designers and programmers they pay then Microsoft is doing it wrong.

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Boffin

Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Proof of bloat:

VM running Windows XP is between 3 and 5GB

VM running Windows 7 is between 10 and 15GB

VM running Windows 8 is between 14 and 20GB

Most of this is due to the laugh-a-minute WinSXS directory.

Installed Visual Studio 2013 on a new Windows 2012 server install. This is now 55GB - and has never been fully used in anger. Whereas the Windows 2003 server running Visual Studio 2005 for the last five years has only grown to 22GB.

Conclusion: later versions of Windows are bloated.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed. @JDX

>You could leave a desktop PC sitting in sleep mode but my experience of exploding

>PC power supplies forces me to turn off at the wall.

Really? I've run all my PCs in auto-sleep mode for years. It's a functional requirement for my HTPC, for obvious reasons.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Years ago MS 'fixed' their slow boot by dumping the user at a non functional desktop while the rest of the services cranked the disk, It's cynical but it works, most users consider their machine to have booted as soon as they see the desktop.

That's not why windows is doomed though, mobile is why they're doomed and they've only themselves to blame, they were mobile computing not so long ago.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

I was going to say something similar; instead, I posted two videos - shutting down my laptop and booting it from cold to usable desktop - http://youtu.be/WCBt-LZLpno and suspend/resume of the same laptop - http://youtu.be/RBoQMUgrrJc . Whatever one says, this is not slow. Videos taken with my Blackberry (9900), held by hand.

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Re: Why Windows is doomed.

Also I've setup 8.1 deployment machine here - takes me about 5 minutes to do a clean install over the network with a pixie boot. Here you are. My sideload of KitKat 4.4 on a Nexus 7 2013 yesterday took me may be 15 minutes...

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Bod

Re: Why Windows is doomed. @Filhart

"That's interesting as the Corporation I work for has gone from XP to 7, and the thing we noticed most was on the same hardware our computers needed more RAM to perform the same with 7 as when we were on XP"

Likely because Windows 7 installs will have been 64bit, which naturally uses more RAM. RAM is cheap however and more to the point 64bit Win7 lets you use all that 8GB of RAM whereas 32bit XP will barely let you use 3GB. Suddenly it's free to do far more at the same time and faster also.

Anyway, all this rubbish about boot times - the major audience for Windows now is corporates. Who aside from touch being ludicrous for a productive environment, generally leave their PCs on overnight or at least sleep / hibernate them. Boot time - non issue.

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