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back to article Vintage WINE laid down in SIXTEEN HUNDRED BC was 'psychotropic'

The people of ancient Canaan were far more bibulous than anyone has previously suspected. Boffins have dug up 3,700-year-old wine jugs from an ancient cellar in a large Canaanite city called Tel Kabri, which is not far from the vineyards of modern Israel. The wine was flavoured with honey, mint, cinnamon bark, juniper berries …

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Anonymous Coward

I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

Seriously - They should make a new batch of that elixir and force feed it it to all the kalachnikoff/Uzi waving haters in the area.... Maybe that would solve the middle east crisis once and for all!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

Sadly because drinking wine is considered by those AK-47 wielding mop heads to be really evil that is on a par with Jewish Moneylenders plying their trade on the steps of the Mosque your idea is so much wishful thinking.

Nice try though.

One can dream.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

"The people of ancient Canaan" or Palestinians as they are better known...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

"Maybe that would solve the middle east crisis once and for all!"

I think the Iranian solution is the only permanent one - The world's Glow-in-the-Dark glass car park...

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Unhappy

Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

It might solve it for a while. But only until the next day when the hangover hits...

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Facepalm

Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

> Jewish Moneylenders plying their trade on the steps of the Mosque

Mixing up your memes here?

Well, Christian economic scholars (apparently calling from the same bizarro alternate universe of crooked logic as does N.Y.T. Krugman) have condemned and fulminated against moneylending for about a couple of thousand years, which is why this particular profession was reserved to that particular class of people for a long time. Also didn't Jesus rageclean the temple back at around 0 A.D.?

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Anonymous Coward

@anon Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

> "The people of ancient Canaan" or Palestinians as they are better known...

Only someone with absolutely no knowledge of history would make that sort of statement. The area wasn't called Palestine until it was sacked and absorbed by the Romans, and it was named for the Philistines, a non-semitic culture that had all but disappeared by that point in history. Modern palestinians are arabs who bear no relation to that earlier culture whatsoever.

It was a common practice of empires to split conquered territories into pieces and rename them to break the cultural bonds of the people they had conquered, in order to discourage uprisings.

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Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

"Also didn't Jesus rageclean the temple back at around 0 A.D.?"

Son of god or not - ragecleaning the temple of moneylenders while still drinking Mary's milk is pretty damn impressive!

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Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

Not exactly. Palestine is a modern construct. They could have been Israelis, or Lebanese or whatever the area was called at the time.

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Re: I want a Technicolor dreamcoat for X-mas !

"I think the Iranian solution is the only permanent one - The world's Glow-in-the-Dark glass car park..."

Two problems there.

First, Iran is a bit of a haul from Israel, let alone where the wine residue was found.

Second, civilized people do not advocate for genocide.

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Re: solve the middle east crisis once and for all!

We could start with air drops of chocolate brownies.

If that fails to pacify the region, we can gradually increase the dose.

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Happy

Re: solve the middle east crisis once and for all!

Marmite, I believe someone once proposed.

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"The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Erm, excuse me, but during a dive in the Mediterranean, Jacques Cousteau and his crew found a *two thousand* year old amphora of wine that was intact. Thinking there would be others, they drank it (and found it tasted terrible!)

IIRC, however, they never found another one...

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Cousteau was a dick who didn't observe animals but molested them. His brother's antics earned him a trial after WWII, it seems that Jacques beliefs may not have been that different fomr his.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/20000-lies-under-the-sea-the-fishy-world-of-jacques-cousteau-1102346.html

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Most of the 'Great Explorers' were dicks to our minds. But they are directly responsible for creating the last few generations of scientists and explorers with a better sense of ethics and respect. The cultural superiority you seem to be espousing is an extremely recent development in Human civilization. Without those who had gone before we would not have room to improve.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Nope nothing to do with cultural superiority, the man was a dick. Even as a kid watching his programmes I twigged that what he was doing had nothing to do with observation of animals in their natural habitat but everything to do with playing to the cameras.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

See, you did it again...

Dick he may have been, but he and Gagnan are the reason SCUBA and underwater cinematography are a thing. They invented the demand regulator that's basically unchanged today as well as perfected the water proof camera housings that provided access to camera controls and the lighting methods that scientists use today to do their observations. He invented it, so I guess if he wanted to play it up that's OK.

I really suggest you expand your horizons beyond the propaganda site you link to. Most of the big names in any field are dicks, but you're a fool to ignore their accomplishments.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

And Hitler made the trains run on time. Oh, and is responsible for the roads that many Germans enjoy the use of to this day. Also Volkswagen. He was still a momumental penis. Or should I say "a festering sore on the anus of humanity"?

Can I have a Godwin award now?

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

The Independent a propaganda site?

At least you agreed he was a dick. I have no problem recognizing his accomplishments I also have no problem realizing that his "wildlife" exploits are indeed exploitative and little to do with the wildlife.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Mussolini made the trains run on time... Hitler is responsible for women's rights, jet engines, several forms of modern reinforced concrete and solidarity (of a sort) in Europe as well as organized genocide. But I fail to see what 20th century fascists have to do with Jaques Cousteau...

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@ Efros

Yes. He was certainly a dick. I don't even like his writing style, he comes off as a dick in print, and that's a lot harder to do than you'd think. I just chalk it up to being French :)

By cultural superiority I was intending to point out that until very recently the world at large had a very different view on what being 'great' or 'legendary' meant. Within the last 35-40 years or so we've gotten a lot 'nicer' and the people involved and their attitudes have become as important as their accomplishments. Used to be you could be as big of an ass as you wanted, it was even expected, as long as you met your goals.

I'm glad we're moving past that, but at the same time it is difficult for me to hold the expectations of society at any given time against the people of that period. Remember when Cousteau was working in SCUBA we still officially in government announcements called the Japanese 'Japs' and 'Nips' and had propaganda in the US and UK to 'know your yellow enemies and your yellow friends' and the Germans were Krauts. It was a very, very different planet then.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

But I fail to see what 20th century fascists have to do with Jaques Cousteau...

Just pointing out that even the biggest cock-ends may have done some things that might be considered useful. It doesn't stop them from being cock-ends. Or genocidal maniacs.

In other news, Isaac Newton was also interested in the Occult, and Alchemy. Yes, the whole lead-into-gold thing. So crazy batshit insane in many ways, which doesn't detract from his quite useful (if superceded in more recent decades) theories on motion and gravity.

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WTF?

Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

Ye gods! All I fucking well pointed out was that 200 years old was *not* the oldest booze ever found...

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Re: “The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found”

Graham, listen, don’t mention Cousteau. I mentioned him once, but I think I got away with it all right.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: “The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found”

Well done everyone. I started by knowing not a lot about Cousteau. Now I know that maybe he's a dick for "playing to the camera". Very informative. Not.

That could apply to just about anyone who gets in front of a camera at any point in time. But somehow in Cousteau's case, it makes him comparable to Hitler and Mussolini. I guess he must have done something else you've not mentioned, like a minor act of genocide, maybe?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Propaganda Site? The Independent?

Hmmm, well if you are a Telegraph reader, then I suppose that both The Independent and The Guardian represent the evil undercurrents that are going to come out from under our beds and destroy society.

But anyway, you might have bothered to read the article, which fully accepts and lauds his actual accomplishments. Apart from which, he seems to have been a bit if a dick.

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Re: "The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found"

"And Hitler made the trains run on time."

I guess Germany has to pull up all train tracks, roads and bulldoze their Volkswagen plant in your strange little world.

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Re: @ Efros

"Yes. He was certainly a dick."

True enough, he *was* a showman. He brought interest into something that was, at the time, utterly unknown to the masses.

But then, I grew up while he was doing his schtick, watching each installment.

Before him, only industrial divers and the military really had any clue what was below the surface of the waves, let alone down deep.

I'll not even begin to go into what was on the Loony Tunes back then...

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> The wine was flavoured with honey, mint, cinnamon bark, juniper berries and even mysterious "psychotropic resins", which might explain why people in the biblical era spent so much time spouting prophesies and wearing technicolor dreamcoats.

.. and believing in fairies that live in the sky.

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I'm assuming you consider yourself to be an intelligent being who requires evidence in order to make decisions. I'm doubting your self assessment as it's perfectly clear that psychotropic drugs are not required for people to worship invisible entities they deem to be deities. You lose 10 Troll Points for observational failures and over eagerness. Show some restraint and thought in future attempts and your efforts will be far more valued.

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Unhappy

It looks like a few people didn't get the joke. I hate it when that happens.

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Trollface

Deal with it!

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Facepalm

> I'm assuming you consider yourself to be an intelligent being who requires evidence in order to make decisions.

It has been well documented that world religions are pretty self-sustaining once they get going.

They require only that their participants suspend logic and that they indoctrinate their children. The indoctrination helps with the logic suspension as it happens.

Someone must have kicked them off in the first place.

Either:

1) they emerge spontaneously by people "having a laugh" or

2) they naturally occur through superstition and grow from there, or

3) someone with influence (read money/power) was on drugs and persuaded people in their power that sky fairies exist with the threat of stabbing to death.

But 3) would never happen would it?

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened.

Certainly in England and many other places. Either be a Christian or die. Your choice.

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The engine of (most) religions self sustaining nature is my real only problem with organized religion. I don't like management through fear. I don't like it at all. You're either a believer or you are doomed for all eternity to be burned, frozen, trapped in a rock, etc...

All those those things, from a reward to the punishment(s), imply that a God has an ego. An all powerful entity that created everything is somehow so petty that if you don't join his fan club you'll be punished for all eternity? Or even punished at all. That makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying dogs can't open checking accounts because some birds are flightless.

It's also the same tactic shady politicians use, they toss some issue out there and if you don't support them, then you must be a terrorist, paedo, witch, Commie, etc... and are deserving of punishment. It's taking advantage of people and that's simply awful. I have real trouble believing that if there is a God that he's got the same mindset as a politician...

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".. and believing in fairies that live in the sky."

Naw, they *started* from that, went all psychodelic and moved into warp speed.

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For the religions at the time that that wine was still fresh and fermenting, it was:

2) they naturally occur through superstition and grow from there, or

3) someone with influence (read money/power) was on drugs and persuaded people in their power that sky fairies exist with the threat of stabbing to death.

In that order, over many generations. Once some bright folks figured out how to make a racket out of #2, it quickly turned into #3.

Though, Europe turned that into a hard science, with fire, impalement, etc.

Though, other regions had other religions that did much the same thing.

What can I say, greedy assholes are very, very creative.

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from memory it is not an ego thing, merely a consequence of action, it is not a god punishing a person, just a statement that if A then B it is not personal.

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Which resins exactly?

Give us the recipe then!

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Re: Which resins exactly?

Araldite!!!

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Pint

Bring in Dogfish Head!

There is an American microbrewer who has already worked with molecular archaeologists to re-created several ancient brews, which they later sell. Like this one:

http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/occassional-rarities/chateau-jiahu.htm

I've tried several. Unusual, but interesting. Good stuff! And what the hell is science good for anyway if not for re-creating ancient beer?

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Re: Bring in Dogfish Head!

i keep waiting for the day, if some secret lab has not done it anyway, when a scientists will put the THC gene in regular lawn grass. not only would you never have to pay anyone to cut your lawn but milk and cheese would maybe be found to have increased demand therefore helping the dairy industry!!!!!!!

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Coat

Re: Bring in Dogfish Head!

Molecular archaeologists? They must have very small trowels.

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Coat

Re: Bring in Dogfish Head!

Well, if I were living in America then I would hope that the research into ancient ales would finally create something drinkable.

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Carlsberg?

'The 200 year old booze, which was the oldest ever found, tasted "fresh" with notes of "yeast, honey and ... a hint of manure".'

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Re: Carlsberg?

I think you have the wrong end of the stick; this was booze for the Hooray Henry's of the day.

Even today, sticking a bit of poo into something seems to be de rigor for the well heeled Hoorays, just go read the review on "Which" regarding Fortnam&Masons mince pies.

(Or look here for a brief news report on the tests http://www.bitterwallet.com/which-reveals-the-best-mince-pies/70022 )

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Decant

> This wine's recipe was strictly followed in each and every jar

Surely the ancients were savvy enough to make their "special recipe" wine in a large batch and then store (or sell) it in more manageable portions. That's the simplest explanation for a consistent mix in each jar.

But I suppose when the researchers want to "big up" their discovery (basically, a load of empty pots), then any little helps.

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Re: Decant

Whether fancy drink for the upper class or swill for the proles, standardized booze production has been around a long, long, long time. The chief expense in modern booze production (other than marketing) is equipment/automation that simply isn't a concern when your labor force will literally, work for booze and bread. It requires no skill and everyone who can't participate in other labors can help. Children, women, infirm or battle damaged can all find work. It's simply silly to think that consistency is a modern invention when knowledge of the processes involved was ingrained in every child born.

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Pint

Re: Decant

But if, as you say, they brewed their wine in significantly sized batches, then it doesn't take a big leap to assume they had a strict recipe and quality control to ensure they could turn a good profit to afford large-scale wine production.

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Re: Decant

Dunnol. Have you ever bought a really large pot? Have you ever tried cooking a really large meal? There's a reason why big pots are so much more expensive to buy:: they are so much more expensive to make and transport. And the extra labour in cooking large batches is requires more strength, more organisation, and more care. And is matched by the risk that when it fails, it all fails.

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Re: Decant

But wine is commonly brewed today in tanks that are basically like covered swimming pools, dug into the ground and lined to make them watertight. I dare say the ancients could have mastered that technology.

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