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back to article Internet Explorer 11 BREAKS Google, Outlook Web Access

The Windows 8.1 rollout has hit more hurdles: the new version 11 of Internet Explorer that ships with the operating system does not render Google products well and is also making life difficult for users of Microsoft's own Outlook Web Access webmail product. The latter issue is well known: Microsoft popped out some advice about …

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8.1, if its ever forced as opposed to optional, will be the final straw that will move me to Linux desktops full time.

gee, does anyone know of any Adobe Lightroom replacements that worth a darn? I shoot extensively in Canon Raw format, and /need/ lightroom for its ease in managing and easily tweaking large numbers of pictures to get optimal results.

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I'm no Microsft fan, but I've noticed Google are increasingly acting like Microsoft used to act. It used to be that Google as a service supplier, did their best to render well on every device. But as they are starting to offer a meta-OS layer on top of other OS's, they appear to be becoming more about disintermediating the underlying OS, and recently they have started playing silly buggers with standards so only life within their ecosystem works smoothly. They used to want YouTube to work on all devices. Now they have stopped transcoding many of the videos from formats that are not supported in the browser on iOS devices, it seems this proportion has gone-up (remember transcoding can be done dynamically to and/or a cached transcoded version triggered on request). They have implemented HTML 5 video player controls even for video formats that are supported by the native player in iOS, where those controls don't work as well and won't give full screen viewing. That's Google's perogative and potentially allows a standard code base to be used across devices, except the HTML5 controls are different across devices. Just as MS have come over all standards based (at least with regard to IE) Google have started playing silly buggers with non-standard coding exceptions which they say they can't be expected to disable or maintain for marginal devices (in which they include recent versions of IE). Make no mistake, from a company with the resources of Google, this is a deliberate disengenius approach and they are happy to disadvantage Microsoft. In each case it can be argued it's their prerogative and choice, saves money, etc. My point is that they are no longer see themselves as a company that should work hard to cater for the widest number of platforms as they used to do. So begins a new wave of standard wars, and Google seem to be finding themselves absorbed by precisely the mindset they were criticising when they made their "do no evil" pledge. User choice and convenience will suffer as a result.

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Linux

Here you go

http://www.lightzoneproject.org/

give it a whirl.

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Anonymous Coward

Well Google's plan didn't work on me. I moved to Bing as soon as I had problems with Google - it has improved a lot since the last time I used it. Better than Google in some ways...

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Anonymous Coward

Can you please use some punctuation signs?

I had to make an extraordinary effort to read your comment, and only the vote count made me persist until the end. And yes, you're right in what you say, but surely you could have used some commas and split things in paragraphs?

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Re: Can you please use some punctuation signs?

He's obviously a lawyer. They don't use punctuation in case the meaning could be interpreted in different ways. Either way it is still insane jibberish to us mere mortals who can't bill $200/hour.

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LDS
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Re: Here you go

Canon RAW formats support doesn't look so good for latest cameras... 6D and 70D are missing, other are copies of other profiles. Does it support lens profiles, also? DPP and Lightroom do.

If you're in photography and don't like Windows, a Mac is a better choice than any Linux. You're bound to a single expensive hardware provider (an excellent one, anyway), but at least you still have first tier image tools.

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@Pierce - Adobe Lightroom replacements?

Try Darktable (http://www.darktable.org/). I use it on Mageia 3 (it is in the repository, so no hassles installing) and it works a treat.

FWIW, I use Digikam to organise, preview and tag my photos, Darktable to convert raw to tiff and Gimp for final tweaking.

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@pierce - lightroom options

The well regarded digiKam (see for example this review).

Loads of tutorials online including this introduction

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does anyone know of any Adobe Lightroom replacements that worth a darn?

Try Corel AfterShot Pro, formerly Bibble.

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Anonymous Coward

because it has a pretty homepage?

The post is required, and must contain letters.

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Lightzone - lightroom replacement - free and open source

LightZone is a free, open source digital photo editor software application. It was originally developed as commercial software by the now-defunct Light Crafts. Its main purpose is to handle the workflow when handling images in various RAW formats. It is comparable to Adobe Systems's Photoshop Lightroom. (from widipedia)

Available for linux, osx and windows.

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@ SuccessCase

I've noticed it too, but that has nothing to do with the M$ frackup discussed in this article. MS compatibility-mode is most assuredly NOT standards compliant. And the code renders properly in EVERY non-MS browser. Which makes your rant about You-Tube in this context a red herring. If Google breaking MS things prods MS to actually fully and properly implement standards from ISO et al. I'm not blaming Google for breaking it.

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Re: Lightzone - lightroom replacement - free and open source

Ask yourself why as a commercial software it brought its company to death... and such tools should be kept updated with RAW and lens profiles. This looks far behind Lightroom in such support. Frankly, a sensible user first looks for the tools it needs, than chooses the OS/hardware to run them on - and who cares if they don't make you feel a geekie.

Going the other way round is usually silly. It's just like buying a camera and some lenses and then see if they are good for the kind of photos you need to take - if you're clever you select the right lenses and cameras for the pictures you need to take. Oh wait... just go to any camera store and you'll see how many don't do this...

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@ Tom 13

The problem is, or was, Google not sending standards-compliant code to IE11, when IE11 sends its latest User-Agent string. Therefore Microsoft added Google's domains to its Compatibility View list.

This list does not necessarily do the same as clicking the Compatibility View button. The button forces IE to emulate IE 7 (which is useless, in my opinion - it should emulate IE 6). The Compatibility View list can cause a custom User-Agent string to be selected for a given site, it can turn other features on or off such as back-forward caching, it also lists domains that are known to require ActiveX controls (and therefore have to load in the desktop browser rather than the 'immersive' mode), and which GPUs and drivers are known to have problems with hardware acceleration.

IE11's User-Agent string is deliberately very different from IE10's, in order to cause more sites to send it standard-compliant code rather than code designed for IE 6. Google's code must have been detecting it incorrectly. In the current version of the compatibility list that I just retrieved, the only feature disabled for Google's domains is the back-forward cache. It's also excluded for microsoft.com.

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Re: Can you please use some punctuation signs?

"He's obviously a lawyer. They don't use punctuation in case the meaning could be interpreted."

There, FTFY.

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> gee, does anyone know of any Adobe Lightroom replacements that worth a darn? I shoot extensively in Canon Raw format, and /need/ lightroom for its ease in managing and easily tweaking large numbers of pictures to get optimal results.

You could always give Wine a go. YMMV but it's getting better every day.

Go for the most up-to-date version you can.

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Anonymous Coward

Won't be long before only Chrome renders many Google sites properly.

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Re: @ SuccessCase

"Recommended options" is the 1st thing to disable when setting up Windows system and IE (obviously MS is trying to make it more difficult and forces to go through all the same hoops every time they push IE update, registry fix - as usual - resolves this). Signing up for compatibility list is like giving up once rights to big brother (yeah, cause good MS will protect you). Doesn't this also mean that IE is not standard compliant? MS, please just play by rules and just render the pages as coded (and let Google or whoever just fix them if there's really a need).

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Re: @ Tom 13

>The button forces IE to emulate IE 7 (which is useless, in my opinion - it should emulate IE 6).

I should emulate Firefox or Chrome ... IE6/IE7/IE8/IE9/IE10/IE11 still have lousy SVG support and lack xpath support .... in one word: useless.

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I had a search yesterday and found that Bing's results were MUCH superior to Google's - until I noticed that either Microsoft or Firefox had replaced my default search engine with ask.com. Fixing that put the world back in order with Bing giving very good results but Google's slightly, but noticeably, better.

But I will be upgrading to Windows 8.x when I replace the laptop with a new one that doesn't come with Windows 7 downgrade rights and a factory installed Windows 7. I never have understood those who fork up good money to Microsoft (or Apple) to upgrade a perfectly usable and currently maintained OS; or, for that matter, the businesses who, even if the new OS is covered by an enterprise license subscription, incur the internal expense and user pushback.

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Re: Can you please use some punctuation signs?

Strange. I read it without problem at all.

Maybe it's because I am slightly under the inebriative effects of a very fine Italian drop?

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Re: @ SuccessCase

All good web developers know what works properly in which browser. If Google wanted to work properly in IE it would.

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Headmaster

disintermediating?

Your description ("they are starting to offer a meta-OS layer on top of other OS's") sounds like they are adding an extra middle-man, not removing one. Hence, not disintermediating, but rather intermediating.

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Have you looked at http://rawtherapee.com/

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Re: @ Tom 13

You completely ignored the bit that the compatibility list is itself, NOT standards compliant. It is a kludge of duct tape, bailing twine, and bubble gum holding together the last vestiges of a very, very bad and failed policy from MS. Other systems which ARE standards compliant did not have the problem. If I created a subset of my webpage that was optimized for IE10 (or any other version for that matter), I should set a flag for that and regardless of how new the browser is, it should render with the IE10 engine. Not that I think this is EVER a good thing to do. Web pages should always be optimized for web STANDARDS. It's why we agree to them.

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One word. DigiKam.

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Anonymous Coward

Junk is

what junk does

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Re: Junk is

And what an incredible piece of junk is Microsoft's testing regime if they find out an issue with Google's websites after the release? Are all Microsoft drones obliged to use Bing? What were they testing against, an old cache of Geocities?

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Re: Junk is

Why would you think they found out about it after release?

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JDX
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Re: Junk is

How do you know Google didn't change something after the release?

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Re: Junk is

I'm pretty sure Google didn't change something to break it *on purpose* after the release; Google wants as many people as possible to use their search.

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Add some citrix portals to the broken list

I tried logging in to one of our clients this morning on IE11.....had to switch it to compatibility view (after I found the damn button) to get the site to render anything.

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Yeesh!

Ballmer's certainly setting a high note for his exit from MS, ain't he?

His pet project seems to have turned from Metro to Modern, to Merde!

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Re: "from Metro to Modern, to Merde!"

Meltdown?

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Headmaster

Re: "from Metro to Modern, to Merde!"

"alliteration" - the repetition of a particular sound in the prominent lifts (or stressed syllables) of a series of words or phrases.

-- wiki

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FAIL

Standards compliant

IE 6 is dead!

LONG LIVE IE 11!

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Anonymous Coward

Fortunately I have never used Explorer on a regular basis because it has a long-term history of not following standards. Over many years I have encountered websites which would not display properly when using other browsers and concluded that those websites had been written for Explorer specifically using MS methods. If the website creators had followed industry standards for HTML etc. then the pages would have been fine in all browsers except Explorer !

It would be interesting to make a list of all the standards that MS has broken over the years - just take Word for example which even breaks its own by changing formats every few years !

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Well it used to be that only new and "fringe" technologies broke compatibility or were discontinued. Examples of that were "Windows for Pen Computing" or "Silverlight".

The important stuff used to be backwards compatible for decades. Some companies still run DOS-based software for business critical things. It just works. Win16 and Win32 were other examples of technologies which were taken for granted.

The point is, Microsoft gained a bad reputation for all their "new stuff" while they gained a decent reputation for keeping a base win16 or win32 program running for years. Now they throw out the old stuff with good reputation while not providing any alternative with a decent reputation.

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Anonymous Coward

"just take Word for example which even breaks its own by changing formats every few years "

Word has just Doc and Docx as native formats as far as I know - and still supports saving in both. As Docx is now extensible, I doubt you will see a new format anytime soon.....

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"The point is, Microsoft gained a bad reputation for all their "new stuff" while they gained a decent reputation for keeping a base win16 or win32 program running for years."

I think you have that backwards. MS deservedly gained a reputation for punting rubbish APIs and ABIs with Win16 & Win32, the only people who claimed they were good were people who never used anything else. ;)

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@07:47 GMT Anonymous Coward

MS change their file formats regularly to force business users to upgrade to the latest version of office (so they can read new versions of old formats). Extensibility and other capabilities of the format has nothing to do with it.

".doc" is not a format, it's a name. The format has changed frequently.

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FAIL

I take it you haven't come tried to open many complex word documents created in Offce 2007 in Office 2010 or Office 2013, then. The results can be unpleasant and it occurs far to frequently for it just to be corrupted documents.

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You assume the interpreter for that "new format" doesn't change, making that "new format" just another old format.

http://xkcd.com/927/

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"I think you have that backwards. MS deservedly gained a reputation for punting rubbish APIs and ABIs with Win16 & Win32, the only people who claimed they were good were people who never used anything else. ;)"

Absolutely, I should have put that more precisely. Win16 & Win32 weren't good, but they were stable. That's what I wanted to say.

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The .Doc underlying format change many times over the years. Pre-Office 2003, nearly every version of Office changed the formatting of .Doc files. While the file extension stayed the same, the actual format of the file was different and wasn't always able to open .doc files saved in older versions of Office.

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Multiple doc formats

"Word has just Doc and Docx as native formats as far as I know - and still supports saving in both. As Docx is now extensible, I doubt you will see a new format anytime soon....."

Yeah, that is mistaken. .doc is just whatever format Word happened to use at the moment. It had one format for Word for DOS, one for Word <6, one for Word 6, one for Word 7 and 95, then for Word 97 they switched to the 97-2003 format. Then they switched to docx.

I'll ignore the DOS format. Word 5.1 for Mac came out in 1992, so 4 incompatible file formats in 5 years. They then managed 10 years of compatibility, although 2003 supported docx it was not default until Office 2007.

Anyway... if Microsoft's true interest were compatibility (rather than sticking it to Google), they should simply take google's properties off their (in)compatibility list since this is breaking rendering.

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Re: Multiple doc formats

"Anyway... if Microsoft's true interest were compatibility (rather than sticking it to Google), they should simply take google's properties off their (in)compatibility list since this is breaking rendering."

Anyway... if Microsoft's true interest were compatibility (rather than sticking it to any competitor that encroaches on the monopoly turf),...)

FTFY.

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Re: Multiple doc formats

Exactly what monopoly does Internet Explorer command?

And defending Google is laughable. The primary reason they want to drop support for older IE versions is so they can get those people to switch to Chrome.

If anything, Google are using their near-monopoly position as an internet search site to try and strong-arm people into using their other products - their browser, their email and their social networking site.

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Truly PRICELESS...

..., seriously, it's just PERFECT as this crazy, unstoppable Ballmerian train wreck is running towards the station at full speed, just perfect - because it perfectly shows the level of utter incompetency under Ballmer, originally stemming from the top, now reaching so far into the roots that the company is practically delivering BROKEN PRODUCTS ALL THE TIME, ONE AFTER ANOTHER, not even being able to maintain compatibility with its own core products...

..priceless, indeed.

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