Feeds

back to article Microsoft: Everyone stop running so the fat kid Win RT can catch up

Windows Phone has been a success for Microsoft in 2013, thanks almost entirely to very low cost but good value Nokia devices. But the platform itself advances at the pace of a continental shelf on a work-to-rule. Will the latest platform enhancements in GDR3 help? Most certainly - but it's all WP users will have to chew on for …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

Silver badge

I don't know the Windows Phone or RT platform. But perhaps RT is architecturally and API wise, closer to where they want to be?

9
0
Anonymous Coward

"so the fat kid Win RT can catch up"

Rather misleading. Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency.

7
57
Anonymous Coward

Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

Quick, downvote!!!

10
26
Silver badge

Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

Quick, downvote!!!

I think it's more "oh dear, yet another anonymous troll" than anything else.

If you want to troll to provoke reaction, that's fine... but there's an icon for that :)

if you want to be treated as yet another paid-shill by trolling points without any facts to back them up, then continue posting as AC.

On the other hand, if you want to make a valid point, then don't do it anonymously, explain your point and your reasons and enter into discussions about it rather than name calling or blinkered copy-and-paste statements.

51
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

Can't pick an icon when you post AC.

Besides, you only have to look at the downvotes to see that there's a little glimmer of truth there. In general on this forum saying negative things about Apple or MS get you a lot less downvotes than dissing Google... I know as I regularly slate all 3.

I'll just have a look for you making similar comments when an AC slags off MS or Apple. I may be some time.

0
25
Silver badge

> Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency.

Citation required, preferably not MS funded and thus can be considered independent. I'm genuinely interested.

20
1
Gav
Boffin

"Rather misleading. Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency."

No one cares. As has been repeatedly shown in the history of tech, the best technically doesn't make it the best. In terms of marketing, RT is the fat kid left behind.

But let's not be fatist. RT is so crippled that no-one wants it. It's entire rational is to fit Microsoft's future aims, not the end users'. Amazingly, the end consumer doesn't care what Microsoft's future market strategy is.

29
0
Silver badge

No one cares.

If "the best technically doesn't make it the best" then what difference does it make that RT is crippled?

(Upvotes for "crippled" with no explanation, but downvotes for "ahead in terms of performance and efficiency" as it's got no source? Yeah, there's no pro google agenda here....)

0
10

Yes its a great performer and very efficient at swiping screens and twiddling its tiles. Unfortunately there isn't much more for it to do!

10
0
Silver badge

Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

>Can't pick an icon when you post AC.

Yeah so don't. They do that for a reason.

> saying negative things about Apple or MS get you a lot less downvotes than dissing Google... I know as I regularly slate all 3.

And again we can't tell one AC from another which since your obvious more of the troll variety means its just safer to assume they are all trolls or shills which most on here already do as stated above.

9
0
Silver badge

Re: No one cares.

Upvotes for "crippled" with no explanation, but downvotes for "ahead in terms of performance and efficiency" as it's got no source? Yeah, there's no pro google agenda here

Okay, I'll give you a couple of reasons why it's "crippled":

* Very limited selection of devices

* Very limited selection of applications

* Poor API compatibility with other platforms despite confusingly similar branding and promises made prior to launch

* Inability to side-load applications

If you look, there's a causality here. Limited selection of devices, all pretty much at a very high price tag, which means there's less potential market share. Because there's few people buying them, there's little incentive to write new applications for a platform that's got fewer users. This is compounded by an inability to move applications between platforms by simple recompilation, which might otherwise help boot-strap Windows RT.

Then, there's the ability to load applications you obtain elsewhere, which pretty much cuts out those who might be testing the waters with Windows RT and be looking for beta testers.

Windows RT is basically Microsoft trying to imitate iOS. Unfortunately, just blatantly copying is not going to cut it in this day and age. Hell, the iPad would have gotten absolutely nowhere had it not been for the iPhone… and the iPhone would have been nothing more than a minor curiousity had it not been for the iPod.

Apple came up with the iPod back in 2001. Initially it was just a digital music player with extraordinary storage. You still had to rip your albums. 2003 they brought out the third generation … a Windows port of iTunes, and a music library. Suddenly, the iPod had content that you could purchase and download with a few clicks. No apps, but content just the same.

The first iPhone didn't have apps either, but it could access the same content as the iPod. So it served as a iPod and phone in one, and could do some reasonable web browsing with a UI that was unlike other devices at the time. It otherwise rode on the coat-tails of the iPod. It underwent a few iterations, gaining an API and applications before the iPad was finally announced and released.

The iPad sitll used the same API as the iPhone, applications just needed tweaking for the larger screen size. Hence, porting was trivial. Moreover, the iPad had the same media library access as the iPhone and iPod, so it was still a useful device.

What has any Windows RT device got? Media library? Nope. Applications? Nope. DIY hackability? Nope. Cost effectiveness? Nope. Sorry, I've got nothing, I guess it is crippled after all.

5
0
Silver badge

I don't know about that, but I do know that it is very very obese. I was looking at some WinRT slabs in PC World this morning. The 32GB models only had something 4GB of free space left on them.

2
0
Bronze badge

Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

Perhaps the long-term goal is to install WinRT on phones, not WinPho on tablets. Advances in mobile CPU technology mean that today's phones are already more powerful than yesterday's tablets. I seem to recall reading that WinPho wasn't designed for multi-core processors, at least in the beginning. It may just be a matter of WinRT being the better architecture.

Of course all this means that WinPho 9 or 10 won't be backward-compatible with 8, but that hasn't stopped MS before.

17
0

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

I'm not even sure there should be 'a perhaps' in your post :-)

WinRT, what is it? It's 'Metro' api stuff + Win8 kernel + a bit of Win8 userland recompiled for ARM. WinPhone 8, what is it... It's got a subset of the 'Metro' api + Win8 kernel + WindowsPhone userland (i.e. not the same as Windows8 proper).

There's no way in hell the bits of Win8 userland (not sure about Metro because it's newer) could have run nicely on Tegra3 class ARM devices because there's too much legacy cruft in the Windows8 source tree.

WinPhone is a dead end, it has been since it's inception because it was designed to be a stop-gap solution from the start. Wasn't the Nokia 808 enough of a burning platform warning? Obviously not since people are beginning to buy Lumias now.

WinRT on the other hand is MS's real future phone OS. Which is exactly the reason why I refuse to buy a Lumia to replace my ageing iPhone4 even though WinPhone has got a good GUI running on decent hardware. I don't buy new hardware running on platforms which are soon to be buried.

9
1
Silver badge
Joke

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

But wasn't WP8 MS' real future phone OS after WP7, which was the stop-gap solution?

Don't tell me this now, you've shaken my faith in MS' phone platform.

8
0
Silver badge

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

WinRT is already on Windows Phone devices, as well as Windows RT and Windows 8 devices...

0
0

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

No, no, no. Windows Mobile 6.5 was the stop-gap. Err, I mean 6, WM6. Just good enough to get by on until they release the _real_ phone os. The new version is the one, we promise this time!

9
0

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

Why wouldn't it be backwards compatible ?

WinPhone API is currently a sub-set of WinRT + some additions.

If WinRT is the focus and is expanded so that WinPhone is at some point completely subsumed within the RT API to become WinPhone 9 (for example), then WinPhone 8 is - by definition - a subset of WinPhone 9 and there is no reason to think that a WinPhone 9 system could not therefore run both WinRT (8) and WinPhone (8) apps.

In exactly the same way that - for example - an Android 4.2 device can run Gingerbread apps.

1
1
Silver badge

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

"The new version is the one, we promise this time!"

Given Microsoft's... Uh, entire history of development;

Two months later: "To clarify: Not the upcoming new version, that's just a stepping stone to the NEW, new version, which will definitely answer all your needs and be available early in >mumble mumble<... Unless we have to release an interim before that. (There, that oughtta keep the bastards waiting until we can figure out what the Hell we're supposed to be doing here.)"

7
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

"I don't buy new hardware running on platforms which are soon to be buried."

I did! Nokia N9.

I just like to be a bit different and contrary for the sake of it :D

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Still not getting RT

Intel's low end processors are getting better, so we have a good choice emerging, between full fat Windows 8, in a hybrid tablet/laptop format, or Win RT. Which do you reckon is more useful? Don't get me wrong, the Surface RT devices (especially the new ones) look lovely, but they're awfully limited.

6
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Still not getting RT

"but they're awfully limited."

Erm - but actually they do a lot more than the competition!

6
27
Anonymous Coward

Re: Still not getting RT

My Acer Aspire with Linux Mint 13 does even more. Yet no doubt if I suggested that as an option, it would be the usual cries of 'Looonix fanboy', and I certainly would be wary of recommending a casual user plumping for that over Android or IOS.

15
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Still not getting RT

"Erm - but actually they do a lot more than the competition!"

Erm, they do MS Office, sans macros. So what? The world moved on.

24
2

Re: Still not getting RT

Erm, they do MS Office, sans macros, and you're not allowed to use MS Office commercially. So what? The world moved on.

There, fixed it for ya.

18
0
Bronze badge

Re: Still not getting RT

Unless the competition is a Baytrail tablet pc running Win8. And THAT is the main competition to RT.Similar weight/size/endurance but a lot more options and possibilities. That is IMHO the problem of Win/RT. They are sturdy, useful systems with a good chance of updates/patches past the 9-12 month time of a Samsung Android. But they will always be compared to the Atom based Win8/x86 units and the price difference between the two is small enough that "runs the same software as your home pc" of the Atom wins over the "costs 50€ less" or the RT.

1
2
WTF?

Glacial?

It's true that many of these features are catch up, 'rotation lock' can't arrive soon enough for example. Yet there is a killer feature too 'driving mode'. So, we ought to praise MS when opportunity arises and slag them off terribly otherwise (as is the fine tradition).

What I do think is completely misleading is the pace of development. OK, lets forget about previous incarnations of WP (different architecture altogether). WP8 was shipped in August 2012 (iirc), GDR 1 in December 2012, GDR 2 in July 2013 and now GDR 3 in Oct/Nov 2013 with 8.1 expected in Q1 2014 (subject to slippage of course). Hardly glacial. Of course they have needed to, to catch up with the others but they are the 'new kid on the block' (again, ignoring previous architectures).

Look back on less than 18 months and recall the almost universal predictions that WP8 is a waste of time, it would crash and burn and 'why bother' as it has such small market share. Now it is about 10% of the UK market and still growing (ok still 5% of worldwide, but growing there too).

So yes, MS have some ways to go... WP8.1/Blue in 3-6 months time will be most welcome but when it comes I think it stands a chance of being an overall leader/setter of features rather than a follower.

13
5
Gold badge

Re: Glacial?

Jim McDonald,

You've got a point. But, and I think this is a very big but, almost all the goodies in Windows Phone 8 were under-the-bonnet stuff, not shiny user-interface stuff. Now it's also true that the under-the-bonnet stuff allows for shinier hardware, but there wasn't a great deal of extra niceness for the users to play with in the upgrade from 7-8. So yes, they're getting the technical advances in, but I think one of the frustrations at Nokia was just how slow MS were to improve the UI stuff.

The really stupid thing is that some of this stuff was dead easy! I liked the simplicity of Win Phone, and it's the last phone I bought. Now I'm on a work iPhone - but if I buy again it'll be a Nexus device or a mid-price Nokia. But there were really simple tweaks that would only take a few days of programming work to do, that really should have been done. A torch should have been built into the OS, you should have been able to link menu options on the home screen (it allowed some but not others) - or had a shortcut menu that gave access to WiFi/volume/brightness etc, rather than burying them in the settings. All this is really simple stuff that it would take an idiot not to notice. And with all Microsoft's resources it's criminal stupidity that they didn't fix. I suspect that the managers weren't listening to criticism and all use iPhones themselves, hence weren't picking up on the everyday annoyances.

7
0

Re: Glacial?

It's not market share, it's sales share in the last quarter. Given that most people keep a smart phone for 2 years (contract length) the market share is roughly the phones sold in the last 8 quarters.

The increase in the EU, which is the figures I presume you're talking about (http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/global/News/Windows-Phone-nears-double-digit-share-across-Europe - I've not seen the 5% world wide mentioned anywhere else and my guess is that's a little high), is encouraging for Windows Phone, but as a developer they need several more quarters like that before they're considered as a requirement along with iOS and Android.

5
0
Silver badge

Re: Glacial?

Spartacus:"with all Microsoft's resources it's criminal stupidity that they didn't fix"

The idiocy is much deeper because they locked down the OS+UI enough to stop 3rd party fixes for even simple flaws. Users are hostage to Microsoft and Microsoft haven't been hearing users for a long time. Listening intently but only hearing what they want to.

12
0

Re: Glacial?

Agreed, sales not market share... my bad.

I would have thought the average might have moved from the 24 month point now though. Contracts are/can be shorter (12 or 18) but on the other hand the days of very large steps forward in power/usability are behind us for the most part. They'll always be people who buy the latest and greatest but the unsung majority are likely to hang on to a smartphone bought in the last year or two longer if it continues to meet all their needs I suspect. Perhaps those two factors keep the average around the 24 month point. Still Unlocked/SIM free is much more popular now (indeed mine is an Unlocked/SIM free Lumia 920. I also have an Unlocked/SIM free Sony Xperia) and I plan on hanging on to both (probably) for a total of 36 months IE two more years as things currently stand.

Thinking ahead then, given that WP8 is only just over 12 months old now it's market share is being depressed by the large volume of older phones yet to be replaced. If the sales share each quarter remains strong and growing then in another 10-12 months time that will convert to market share of the current user base in a much more dramatic way. IE market share is a trailing indicator.

0
3

Re: Glacial?

Indeed, very frustrating and arguably inexcusable.

0
0
Silver badge

Re: Glacial?

I've got news for you JIm, that driving mode killer feature has been part of Android for years. My S3 has it.

The latest update to WinPho just adds features that have been part of Android and iOS for years. When I looked over the list of additions recently I was astounded WinPho didn't have most of them already.

7
0
Silver badge

"features that have been part of Android and iOS for years."

Yeah, so? I was perfectly happy with my Series 80 Communicators when Apple announced they had added [drumroll, audience gasps] COPY AND PASTE! [applause] I was astounded that this much vaunted phone hadn't already had something so pitifully basic, that Nokia had had for years. But, turns out, the thing is, most users don't much care if the feature already exists on some other platform. They want it on their platform.

Part of the reason for this, of course, is that there is a significant price difference between getting a new feature as part of a free update and getting a new feature by going out and buying a whole new phone.

1
2
Silver badge

Re: Glacial?

@Jim McDonald:"it's market share is being depressed by the large volume of older phones yet to be replaced"

...and maybe in 12 months, everyone who will convert will have upgraded and done so, most new sales will be existing WP users upgrading and growth will stutter to a halt...

2
0

Success???

3 years after going on sale a share of about 3% is a pretty poor success in my book.

13
8
JDX
Gold badge

Re: Success???

Where do you get that number from, did you just make it up to look cool?

5
6
Bronze badge

Re: Success???

The figure is closer to 5% which means one in 20 people use a Windows Phone and that is being driven almost solely by one OEM.

To get any form of traction against two entrenched ecosystems (Android and iOS) is a success.

3
6
Anonymous Coward

Re: Success???

5% of smartphone of the market is not 5% of the population - so one in 20 people do not in fact own a Windows phone...there are maybe a billion smart phones in the world, so that would be way less than one in a hundred people, but then MS market share is closer to 3.5% not 5%, so I reckon it would be fair to say that for every 200 people, you may see a Windows phone. Maybe.

14
2

Re: Success???

Gartner state 3.3%

10
0
Silver badge

Re: Success???

While it is true that market share isn't the same thing as user base, so, yes, 5% market share doesn't equate to 1 in 20 people actually owning one, it is also true that vendors don't give a damn. What they care about is market share. The fact that someone out there still owns an iPhone 2 or a Nokia 808 is of absolutely zero interest to them. What matters to them is sales.

1
1

Re: Success???

3.3% was Windows Phone market share in Q2 2013 according to Gartner (http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2573415). As it was Windows Phone's best quarter to date, the actual share of Windows Phone devices in use is probably significantly lower.

6
1

Re: Success???

@JDX "Where do you get that number from, did you just make it up to look cool?"

Latest number in Wikipedia, since you asked so nicely.

6
0
Silver badge

Re: Success???

In the UK and Germany, it is over 10% and in Germany it is only about 4% behind the iPhone.

1
5

Re: Success???

> In the UK and Germany, it is over 10% and in Germany it is only about 4% behind the iPhone.

Source please.

4
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Success???

http://www.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-kantar-9-percent-eu-decline-china

0
5
Silver badge

Re: Success???

From your ref.

"while in Germany the platform sits behind iOS on 8.8%" - but that's sales for the previous 3 months NOT it's penetration of the German market

3
0
Bronze badge

Re: Success???

> To get any form of traction against two entrenched ecosystems (Android and iOS) is a success.

Given that it was the replacement for a successful system from a leading manufacturer, and the sales are now perhaps reaching half the figure that Nokia were dissatisfied enough with to pull the plugs on Symbian, I don't think I would agree.

5
0
Silver badge

Re: Success???

> What matters to them is sales.

No, what matters is profit. Nokia's rise in sales in Europe is in the low priced ranges and these (according to Nokia's reports) are selling at a loss. The price would have to rise about 15% just to stop the loss.

Of course many businesses can sustain losses for a short time in order to gain sales volume but it seems that Nokia had enough of losing money on their phones and were either going to dump them all (ie stop making WP phones) or switch to Android when the current agreement runs out early next year.

MS bought Nokia phones to save face instead of losing their 90% OEM.

6
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Success???

So iPhone has around 10.5% market share in Germany?

(Math challenge)

0
0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.