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back to article Brit inventor Dyson challenges EU ruling on his hoover's energy efficiency ratings

Brit inventor James Dyson is challenging the EU's labelling policy for hoovers in court, claiming that it doesn't do his vacuum cleaners justice. Dyson said that the EU's energy efficiency rating system was based on dust-free lab conditions that were completely different to the way that hoovers performed in the home. The firm is …

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Coat

It's no good

sucking up to the EU...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's no good

I'm sure it will just blow over.

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Re: It's no good

As much as I dislike the man, he has a point...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's no good

I buy a vacuum cleaner (note I do not use the brand name Hoover) to vacuum and pick up crud from my carpets and floors. The last thing I want to do or think about is saving the planet when I do.

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Anonymous Coward

A policy for "hoover in court"!

I know the general populace has demanded that the judiciary be cleaned up, but I didn't realise there was a niche market for hoovers in court - you learn something every day.

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A can of worms..

That Dyson should have left firmly closed... his filters clog up badly..on fine dust..

and if I could be bothered I'd trash his adverts with the ASA..

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Re: A can of worms..

Ahh yes and you have spotted half of the story. At no point ever do dyson ever say anything about filters. They always talk about bags. That they can not make a cyclonic filter work on the mass of dust is not immensely surprising but that they use filters and dont ever mention them till you buy one and it stops as pretty much as inefficient as any other hoover.

On the plus side they look pretty, are massively overpriced, brittle yet heavy. All you want in a vacuum.

Oh and if you phone them refer to their vacuum as a hoover. They love it......

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Boffin

Re: A can of worms..

his filters clog up badly

You could always wash them more frequently.

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Re: A can of worms..

...and the bagless containers need a bit of a wash out after a bit too.....to get rid of the dust stuck in the crevices, sides, rubber etc

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Re: A can of worms..

We had a Dyson a long time ago. I was so frustrated it's suction power was useless. We had a white cat and a blue carpet in one room. The Dyson never came close to picking up those cat hairs.

The mother in law gave us her Miele. Utterly amazing. It has variable suction power that could actually pick up the carpet on full power. It also has motorised brushes in the cleaning head which pick up the cat hairs instantly.

3rd party bags & filters available on t'internet cheap.

F*ck Dyson

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Bronze badge

Re: A can of worms..

Agreed. Dyson hoovers are terribly overpriced and poor performers. A conventional Miele cylinder type for half the price shits all over them, and the Miele's made in the EU, too.

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Facepalm

Re: A can of worms..

you mean the washable filters? how often do you clean them? or should I ask, how dirty is your house??

I've had a Dyson for 3 years, and with the regular use(probably 1 hour+ daily), that gets it is still working great, I think your either unlucky or are using it in a very strange situation...

Clean the filters once a month seems to be fine for us...

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Re: or should I ask, how dirty is your house??

You obviously don't have a blue cat with a white carpet, (or something which isn't).

ps

They arn't that great for dog hairs on stairs either regardless if they are wearing a hat or not.

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Re: A can of worms..

The best Hoover I ever had was a thirty quid Dyson Cyclone technology knockoff from Electrolux. You'd forget to empty it as it never seemed to lose suction.

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R69

Re: A can of worms..

He can stick his vaccum cleaner up his arse.

I cant understand why we fete his overpriced, underwhelming, foreign tat anymore. If he's had the courage of his convictions he would have retained their manufacturing operation in Blighty.

Shame on you, Dyson.

PS. Wanker!

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Coat

Re: A can of worms..

Looks like the Dyson Sphere of influence is shrinking.

[rimshot]

That's a joke, son, get it?

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Re: A can of worms..

We've got the DC-23 Animal, the suction is terrific, same now as it was 3 years ago and a couple of filter washes. We went through a load of cheap and expensive vacuums before that, and the Dyson is undoubtedly the best. A Great British invention!

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Re: A can of worms..

F*ck your hairy pussy!

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

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kbb

"...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Wouldn't it just be simpler to make the manufacturers make the things 'A' rated?

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Trollface

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Wouldn't it just be simpler to make the manufacturers make the things 'A' rated?
Yes, and indeed that law is coming next year:

● All TVs must consume less than 3W (The biggest screen anyone has made that complies so far is 2". Sony have plans for a jumbo sized 2.3")

● All fridges must consume less than 100Wh a year. (You will need a separate fridge per bottle of milk, any bigger and the fridges consume too much)

● All vehicles must travel 200 miles to the gallon (So far there is a choice of 2 mopeds, and yes they have pedals to go up hills again, just like in the old days)

Ah yes, one size fits all.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

The EU loves making crazy regulations to drive the Brits crazy as they are the only country with bureaucrats who are sufficiently jobsworthy to actually implement or enforce them.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

The ratings aren't always the best metric.

For example, I have solar panels that heat my water (when I'm lucky) yet I can not find an energy rated washing machine that has a hot water inlet. They all have a single cold water inlet and the water is heated up in the washing machine. The reason for this is that in order to get an energy rating the washing machine has to use cold water and heat it up, it can not use hot water. Without an energy rating it can not be sold in the EU.

The EU has effectively banned me from using solar heated water to wash my clothes and is instead forcing me to heat water using electricity.

Even without solar, it is more efficient for your household water heating system to provide the washing machine with hot water than it is for your washing machine to heat it itself and therefore the EU efficiency rating forces washing machines to be more inefficient.

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

I bet there's no such EU regulation - can you point to it? - but this is the washing machine manufacturers saving a few quid on components. Slow cycle times to save water, now that's definitely the energy rating.

http://www.whitegoodshelp.co.uk/cold-fill-washing-machines/, for example, doesn't mention regulation and points out that very little hot water from the average heating system will ever make it into the machine anyway, as by the time the tap runs hot you're full.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

> I bet there's no such EU regulation

2000/45/EC: Commission Decision of 17 December 1999 establishing the ecological criteria for the award of the Community eco-label to washing machines (notified under document number C(1999) 4650)

The machine shall use less than or equal to 0,17 kWh of electrical energy per kg of washload measured according to EN 60456:1999, using the same standard 60 °C cotton cycle as chosen for Commission Directive 95/12/EC(1).

The inlet water supply has to be at 15C. If you want to read EN 60456:1999 (or its successors) yourself then it will cost you money.

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

"Without an energy rating it can not be sold in the EU."

Council Directive 92/75/EEC of 22 September 1992

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!DocNumber&lg=en&type_doc=Directive&an_doc=1992&nu_doc=75

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IR

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

"The EU has effectively banned me from using solar heated water to wash my clothes and is instead forcing me to heat water using electricity."

Then plumb in your hot water and tell the machine to do a cold wash.

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Um - that hasn't resulted in the "banning" of hot-fill washing machines, as a simple web search will demonstrate. So why else do you think they've disappeared?

Rather than ranting about your EU overlords, read an article here about why hot fill is pretty much a waste of time, even when the water is heated from a renewable source. TL;DR:

- Opening the hot fill valve fills the washing machine with "standing" cold water from the pipework before any hot water arrives from the boiler/tank at 0.7l per metre of 15mm pipe (some of which has to heat the pipe, too)

- The standing hot water then left in the pipework is wasted, unless you happen to have the heating on. Unless you have more renewably-heated hot water than you need, you will be paying money for this.

- Washing machines use far less water than they used to, so this problem is much more significant than it used to be (i.e. the proportion of heat wasted is much greater)

- Modern detergents work better at lower temperatures, reducing further the amount of hot water needed, and thus making the problem even more significant. How often do you do a wash at more than 30 degrees nowadays?

- Some clothes can be damaged by thermal shock - better to heat the water up slowly

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Oh and a point of my own - feel free to argue :)

Modern gas boilers have control systems designed to prevent them "short cycling" in central heating mode, because this is very inefficient and also reduces the life of the boiler. If you have a simple combination boiler without a thermal store, it has to fire up every time you turn on the hot tap or the washing machine fills. I imagine, therefore, that with the small amount of water modern machines use, heating it up with a combi boiler will not be very efficient. (Modern machines have recirculation pumps so there is no wasted water sitting in the pipework at the bottom, and the clothes are washed with a jet from above so don't need to be submerged.)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Sorry, but that's bollocks. I have an Indesit washing machine that has a hot-water inlet. And it's a C rated washing machine. So yes, you *do* get energy-rated washing machines with hot-water inlets.

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

So far there is a choice of 2 mopeds, and yes they have pedals to go up hills again, just like in the old days

Which part of moped didn't you understand?

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Re: "...help customers to consider environmental concerns..."

Only to true about hot fill on washing machines ,the machine is full long before the hot water arrives from the hot tank .In the case of a combi boiler it is even longer before you get any hot water . In most hot and cold fill machines the hot water was only used for wool wash.

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I'd rather James Dyson bent his energies to making his cleaners less of an assault on the eyes.

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Anonymous Coward

It's not the assault on the eyes that's the problem

It's the assault on the wallet.

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Dyson have a point.

Dust-free testing would give an unfair advantage to bag-using cleaners. The tests should accurately reflect real-world conditions.

Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair.

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Re: Dyson have a point.

I second the cat hair. It needs to have been trodden down for several days, too.

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Joke

Re: Dyson have a point.

but then wouldn't the Miele 'Cat'n'Dog' model have an unfair advantage??

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Re: Dyson have a point.

"Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair."

FWIW, they have. The issue is that testing takes place once, with a new device and there isn't enough material tested to actually fill a container/bag - so all that's being measure is initial efficiency - which to be frank, is crap on all of them.

Some time back a british gentleman managed to patent a system where the exhaust air is redierected down onto the carpet/floor just in front of the suction head. The result was that the same cleaning efficiency can be achived with about 25% of the power(*). As far as I'm aware there is only ONE cleaner on the market which makes use of this innovation.

(*) It also means that the fine dust spray which all vacuum cleaners emit (even the HEPA filtered ones) is eliminated and efficiency sapping fine filtration is largely unncessary because with the air being recirculated continuously the filters have a much greater chance of catching everything.

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Re: Dyson have a point.

Having moved abroad and had houses with tiled floors I don't really notice much difference between vacuum cleaners.

While I agree that more realistic testing is a good idea I can't help but feel that Dyson is complaining because his vacuums use more electricity than the others.

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Re: Dyson have a point.

Name names, which is this mythical super-efficient hoo.. dy.. vacuum cleaner? Enquiring minds have nothing better to do during their lunch break.

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Anonymous Coward

@Brewster

Surely trodden down does not reflect a real home? surely you vacuum daily right?

I mean how can anyone live in a house and NOT vacuum daily...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Dyson have a point.

add in a few puked-up hairballs hidden away for the ultimate test.

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Re: Dyson have a point.

"Someone must define a 'standard carpet' with an exact laboratory-standard mixture of dust particles of various sizes and a measured quantity of cat hair."

Which? do this already. Here's a snippet from their 'How we test vacuum cleaners' notes:

"For our carpet test, first a machine spreads super-fine sand from Arizona over a carpet and grinds it in. We then strap each vacuum cleaner into the rig, which pulls and pushes it back and forth five times as it sucks up the dust. This is known as the ‘Arizona sand’ test.

We repeat this test several times, measuring when bags or canisters are empty, and also when they're filled with 100g and 400g of dust. Each vacuum cleaner covers a distance of 288m in this test alone. The rig springs into action again to do a similar job for smooth and creviced wood floors.

A bad vacuum cleaner picks up less than half of the dirt in the carpet, where as a Best Buy can pick up twice as much."

Miele usually spank all opposition.

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Re: @Brewster

That would take away the satisfaction of watching the container go from empty to full. I want to be able to see all the dirt I've removed from the house, rather than feel I've wasted another forty minutes losing the battle with the second law of thermodynamics.

PS, unlike the downvoters, I think you're joking. (Or maybe they're downvoting the sarcasm and they do hoover every day.)

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Hoovers???

I bet Dyson would be less than pleased to see vacuum cleaners referred to by his competitors trade name.

I thought we'd stopped doing that last century.

As it is a US brand, do you think you could try to support the home grown industry a bit more?

I'm off to do the Dysonning now...

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Re: Hoovers???

"I thought we'd stopped doing that last century."

News to me. I use a hoover to do the hoovering. My hoover is made by Dyson.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Hoovers???

A tenuous link, and I only thought of it because of the way Bubbles says "Hoover vacooom".

http://youtu.be/-q5bnwPLrxg?t=6m44s

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Hoovers???

Reminds me of some school kids I heard in town talking about their teacher "Ms Dyson":

"Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

My wife said giving them a smack on the head would be frowned upon.

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Re: Hoovers???

Completely agreed. But then I only say vacuum cleaner anyway.

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Re: "Ms Dyson. Ha! Ha! I wonder if she invented the hoover. Ha! Ha!"

Yes, I did find myself laughing at that one - AT THE IMPOSSIBILITY OF IT!

A Dyson can never be a Hoover, in the same way that a Ford can never be a Toyota.

Ford and Toyota are brands of automobile.

Dyson and Hoover are brands of vacuum cleaner.

Oh the impossiblity! Ha Ha!.

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