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back to article Brazilian TV show accuses NSA of spying on oil firm based on leaked docs

Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff has said that if leaked NSA documents showing the US spied on her country's state-run oil firm Petrobras are "confirmed", then it must have done so for “economic and strategic” reasons rather than for "national security". The leaked "intelligence documents" appear to run counter to US claims it …

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Black Helicopters

Oh not to worry Brazil...

...EVERYONE is spying on EVERYONE else. Just get used to it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

Downvoted, since you're apparently OK with that.

Next: free anal probing for EVERYONE!

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Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

Indeed, everybody probably is spying on everybody and they are mostly OK with that. What no one is comfortable with is someone getting caught. That's key success metric in espionage: If nobody knows about it then it is a success. If you get caught it is as much of a failure as there can be. Doesn't matter how you got caught, you simply failed.

Traditionally there are concessions to be made as the cost of failure. The US failed and the aggrieved parties have to express outrage and indignation as their part of what is really a great big game played amongst an elite group sub-Human assholes (maybe Lizard People? :)

Devil take the lot of the cocknozzles.

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Trollface

Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

AC wrote:

"Next: free anal probing for EVERYONE!"
What kind of threat is that? You seem to be assuming everyone would find that unpleasant! :D

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Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

Already being done

It is called 'Bowel Cancer Screening'

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Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

That's not free, even with Obamacare!

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FAIL

Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

My...my...my...looks like there are 24 folks (& counting) who can't face up to the realities of life. Poor bastards.

And I never said I was in favor of spying...but it has been going on ever since the monkeys started walking upright...and isn't EVER going to stop.

So for you 24 downvoters. Have a Farcebook account? How about Twatter? Use G-mail at all? Signed up with LinkedIn by any chance? Do you have ANY cell phone? Do you use a computer? (obvious answer on the last one).

If you answered yes to ANY of the above questions...well guess what? Someone...somewhere...is most likely tracking what you are doing. And when you don't KNOW they are tracking you...that's called SPYING children. ROTFLMAO.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Oh not to worry Brazil...

Poor bastards? Where? I see 24 folks who thinks you're a cretin. Your post sort of confirms that.

Don't like to be downvoted? Don't be a douchebag.

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Pint

For the birds

Not even RfC1149 is safe!

Pint coz...well its more than popcorn!

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Anonymous Coward

wasn't there a dystopian film

about state abuses of power, spying, torture of alleged 'terrorists' etc...what was it called.. hmm.. by Terry Gilliam & starred Michael Pailn & DeNiro & Hoskins, nope, can't think of it

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Anonymous Coward

Re: wasn't there a dystopian film

The Brazilian remake is called "America".

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Silver badge

Re: wasn't there a dystopian film

There is such a film!

If for some reason you don't have access to video, your local library will have a lot of neat non-fiction works as well. Librarians go to great lengths to keep documentation of such things on the shelves. Hug a Librarian?

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Re: wasn't there a dystopian film

oook!

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Re: wasn't there a dystopian film

That's the problem with dystopian films, every time the government sees one it can't help but think, 'hey, that isn't such a bad idea'.

Of course with the war in Iraq still quite visible in the rear view mirror can anyone honestly fault President Rousseff's conclusion?

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Anonymous Coward

Function of a spying organisation?

01. Spying on people.

02. Lying about spying on people.

"The department does ***not*** engage in economic espionage in any domain, including cyber"

Then what's in those monthly reports the CIA pass onto the top corporations?

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Re: Function of a spying organisation?

They're right. It is not economic espionage. It is economic defense; according to the Cheney Encyclopedia of Weasel Word Diplomacy (3rd Ed.)

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Thumb Up

Re: Function of a spying organisation? Re: It is not economic espionage

"economic espionage"

I was about to quote some Obama NSA newspeak, but I like your reference to the 3rd Ed of the CEWWD better. Made all the more hilarious by Obama himself, while trying to distance himself from Bush's surveillance policies.......

“Some people say, ‘Well, you know, Obama was this raving liberal before; now he’s, you know, Dick Cheney,’"

-president Obama to the Washington Post 17/06/13

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/17/obama-on-nsa-im-no-dick-cheney/)

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Re: Function of a spying organisation?

"The department does ***not*** engage in economic espionage in any domain, including cyber"

"Then what's in those monthly reports the CIA pass onto the top corporations?"

There you go, The NSA doesn't engage in economic espionage, they just gather data, and pass it on to those that do, like the CIA.

Amazing what a selective telling of the truth can accomplish, innit?

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Anonymous Coward

Industrial espionage

America has always carried out industrial espionage. Remember Kissingers' words: "America has no friends or enemies, only interests".

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Unhappy

Re: Kissinger

Enemies aplenty rather, especially as it seems to consider its own population in that light.

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Anonymous Coward

Always remember that enemies don't happen spontaneously you have to put some effort into making them!

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Holmes

Looking for confirmation of US/UK economic espionage?

www.phorm.com.br

The clue is in the name. The .br bit stands for Brazil.

Does that help?

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Happy

Remember when your mum said that if you find a loose thread on your fave pullover you mustn't pull on it, or it'll fall apart? I think Edward pulled.

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See Forbes for an opposite opinion

This is an interesting take on the situation: "it would be more shocking if the NSA weren’t gathering every fact it could on Brazil and Petrobras, a bloated, state-controlled behemoth reportedly rife with corruption to which the United States loaned $2 billion in 2009"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/09/09/of-course-the-nsa-should-be-spying-on-petrobras/

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Re: See Forbes for an opposite opinion

Seriously. The only surprising thing to me is that someone apparently managed to imply that the actions of an oil company do not have direct implications for national security while maintaining a straight face.

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Trollface

Re: See Forbes for an opposite opinion

Well then given how much money the US owes to China, then the Chinese should feel free to do anything they want? Oww that smarts!

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Re: See Forbes for an opposite opinion

But then again, it's Forbes, a weird entertainment magazine named after its publisher, with a show on FauxNews.

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Look out Brazil your next on the Marine Corps must visit list

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Look out Brazil

"Look out Brazil your next on the Marine Corps must visit list"

Nah, the US had to dip too deep into its "strategic freedom reserve" over the last decade to ensure the success of liberty, freedom, and the pursuit of happiness in the mid east. Besides that, Brazil has the World Cup next year, so they've got enough freedom for now.

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Re: Look out Brazil

Don't forget the Olympics in 2016

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Re: Look out Brazil

Yeah, Brazil really has nothing to fear from the US. They have a fiercely nationalistic population, well trained and equipped military and security forces, manufacturing independence, technological expertise, terrain advantage and a bunch of neighbors that dislike and distrust the US far more than they do Brazil. They are closely aligned with Japan and the US would be more stupid than normal to piss them off; they'd lose all of Asia.

The US has 12 years of (losing) war experience in a completely different environment, fighting subsistence farmers and unorganized lunatics in a politically unstable region, billions in equipment that won't work there, a tired populace, and ~500,000 native Brazilians and close to 2 million people of direct Brazilian heritage inside the country. Plus, as noted above, the Democracy Delivery Fund (Freedom Fund) is low.

At best it would be a Vietnam at worst it would be an absolute slaughter both militarily and diplomatically. They've got the advantage, like the Russians do. They can thumb their noses at the US all they like. Can't say I blame them either, we sure do go pushing our weight around when we've got the upper hand. But military action is highly unlikely.

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WTF?

Re: Look out Brazil

"They have a fiercely nationalistic population, well trained and equipped military and security forces, manufacturing independence, technological expertise, terrain advantage and a bunch of neighbors that dislike and distrust the US far more than they do Brazil. "

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here but you're clearly out of your mind if you are suggesting that somehow, magically, some tricky 'finesse' would suddenly make Brazil's military force even REMOTELY comparable to ours, seriously.

I understand that they are the region's preeminent military power (well, I guess Mexicans would question that), I can see they are capable at their level - but don't kid ourselves, that insane amount of money we spend on our (clearly overkill) military might puts America in its own league, practically unchallenged in the world.

"They are closely aligned with Japan and the US would be more stupid than normal to piss them off; they'd lose all of Asia."

This is just so wrong at every level... I can assure you that the last thing Japan wants is to piss off the US and see PACOM pulling out its forces from the region - and having to face down the Chinese etc barrel alone (you know, as in "fiercely nationalistic population, well trained and equipped military and security forces, manufacturing independence, technological expertise, terrain advantage and a bunch of neighbors that dislike and distrust" etc.)

[As a side note: I firmly believe all archaic post-war regulations should be removed and Japan should be allowed to re-arm itself as they see fit.]

"The US has 12 years of (losing) war experience in a completely different environment, fighting subsistence farmers and unorganized lunatics in a politically unstable region, billions in equipment that won't work there, a tired populace, and ~500,000 native Brazilians and close to 2 million people of direct Brazilian heritage inside the country. Plus, as noted above, the Democracy Delivery Fund (Freedom Fund) is low.

At best it would be a Vietnam at worst it would be an absolute slaughter both militarily and diplomatically. They've got the advantage, like the Russians do. They can thumb their noses at the US all they like. Can't say I blame them either, we sure do go pushing our weight around when we've got the upper hand. But military action is highly unlikely."

No offense but this is borderline idiotic... you are confusing a local conflict in our backyard with en masse boots on the ground somewhere afar, perhaps?

FWIW it wouldn't be necessary here, we are not in a business of taking over Brazil nor they are too far away so most likely it would be a simple air superiority play if the other party would provoke us/wouldn't back down in time: quickly disable air defense systems then USAF can literally bomb them back to the Stone Age within days - and dancing capoeira fighters burning the American flag while hiding in the rainforests with FN guns wouldn't matter too much to strategic bombers... joking aside I'm pretty sure their entire military use standard NATO-issue weaponry so it wouldn't be much of challenge to neutralize them anyway.

BTW as a matter of fact I think the same true about Russians if we forget about their nukes... it is the sheer size and combined capabilities of the Russian conventional and nuclear forces that put them into the global power player game - something that most likely Brazil will never reach (and no offense but France, UK etc won't either.)

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WTF?

Re: Look out Brazil

Are you mad, or has your TV been stuck on Fox News since June 24th 1950? I'm also assuming you've never been to Brazil... In fact you've assured everyone you haven't been there.

Other than Desert Storm the US hasn't been able to meet its large scale campaign goals since WWII. Every single large scale conflict has been an absolute disaster in terms of lives lost, treasure lost and international standing lost. The only measurable thing we have accomplished is that we've created millions of new enemies to be scared of. For the last 12 years we've been in a constant state of conflict with goat herders, subsistence farmers and spice merchants and they've beaten us back even though we've deployed two million troops and spent $5+ trillion dollars trying to beat them. The US military hasn't faced another organized military force since our first trip to Iraq.

Our troops have been killed relentlessly and we have had to not only had to alter the campaign objectives mid-stream to save face because we couldn't accomplish them, we had to leave massive amounts of equipment behind in the retreat, because there wasn't enough time or resources to pull them out. The best part of all of that is that they were able to pull so many troops out alive. Even more dying would have accomplished nothing.

War has not served the US well in a very long time. It's kind of like the high school football star that still thinks he's got it except it isn't just embarrassing, it is dangerous. The troops are willing and capable but they are led by old men who long ago lost touch with the world around them and politicians that have only their own interests in mind. Until those last two groups change our military will never be able to accomplish their goals.

Lastly, Brazil and Mexico are not in the same fucking region. No more than Korea and Alaska are in the same region. Jesus.

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Re: Look out Brazil

"Are you mad, or has your TV been stuck on Fox News since June 24th 1950? I'm also assuming you've never been to Brazil... In fact you've assured everyone you haven't been there."

___

I'm sorry if I disturbed your dreams of a Brazilian superpower but I go by facts, not by your empirical impressions. Let me put it into a very simple way so even you might can grasp it: Brazil has a standing army with a size few hundred thousands, that pretty much sums it up.

___

"Other than Desert Storm the US hasn't been able to meet its large scale campaign goals since WWII. Every single large scale conflict has been an absolute disaster in terms of lives lost, treasure lost and international standing lost. The only measurable thing we have accomplished is that we've created millions of new enemies to be scared of. For the last 12 years we've been in a constant state of conflict with goat herders, subsistence farmers and spice merchants and they've beaten us back even though we've deployed two million troops and spent $5+ trillion dollars trying to beat them. The US military hasn't faced another organized military force since our first trip to Iraq.

Our troops have been killed relentlessly and we have had to not only had to alter the campaign objectives mid-stream to save face because we couldn't accomplish them, we had to leave massive amounts of equipment behind in the retreat, because there wasn't enough time or resources to pull them out. The best part of all of that is that they were able to pull so many troops out alive. Even more dying would have accomplished nothing.

War has not served the US well in a very long time. It's kind of like the high school football star that still thinks he's got it except it isn't just embarrassing, it is dangerous. The troops are willing and capable but they are led by old men who long ago lost touch with the world around them and politicians that have only their own interests in mind. Until those last two groups change our military will never be able to accomplish their goals."

___

This is all nice and dandy except this has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND, pal.

The topic was an imaginary skirmish with Brazil after you were all out and loud about their military, nationalistic country etc and I simply asked back WTH are you trying to say because any remote thought of their military would mean anything against ours is downright idiotic, a sure sign of someone utterly clueless about the topic (and no, you didn't have to have served to understand the magnitude difference)... remember?

To correct another wrong assumption quickly: such a hypothetical scenario is NOT a large-scale campaign. Moreover even in the very-highly-unlikely case of several South American states joining their anti-US effort it will be still just a theater-level operation, not to mention that their additional force would still mean practically jacksh!t in terms of military force. I bet SOUTHCOM w/ Fleet Forces Command would be able to handle it just fine, they wouldn't pull home anything from other theaters - though we might would invoke Article 5 of the NATO Charter as we did on 9/11, just for fun, to make sure the enemy gets the right treatment everywhere in the world where he runs into any allied NATO forces. :)

Again, if you want to rant about US military and/or its expeditions etc that's fine, there are plenty of reasons for that, I agree with you and I can even give you more grievances, but that's a different topic and still won't make Brazil into any kind of military challenge. ;)

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Lastly, Brazil and Mexico are not in the same fucking region. No more than Korea and Alaska are in the same region. Jesus.

__

Ouch... it was a simple example of a similarly-sized, fairly well-equipped military force within operational distance (for Brazil), nothing else. Jesus, I mean Jefe.

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Yeah, Brazil really has nothing to fear from the US.

We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; but then again there were some nice looking, almost naked ladies on the beach, the sun was great and there were those carts selling coconut water and sugar cane juice all over the place and someone brought a volleyball and we sort of forgot what we're supposed to do.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Look out Brazil

"I understand that they are the region's preeminent military power (well, I guess Mexicans would question that),"

I am quite sure they will question if they're on the same region at all -- unless you consider the US of A one region and the whole world south of the Equator as another.

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Re: Look out Brazil

"[As a side note: I firmly believe all archaic post-war regulations should be removed and Japan should be allowed to re-arm itself as they see fit.]"

What, like how Germany was "allowed" to re-arm prior to WW2?

Unlike Germany, after WW2 Japan has never properly apologised for the atrocities their troops have committed, even worse they are denying those atrocities. The postwar generation are not taught about the real events of WW2 and hence many of them are genuinely puzzled as to why other Asian countries have such strong anti-Japanese feelings. When a prominent politician comes up with shit like this, about the use of forced prostitution :

---

“In the circumstances in which bullets are flying like rain and wind, the soldiers are running around at the risk of losing their lives. If you want them to have a rest in such a situation, a comfort women system is necessary. Anyone can understand that,” Hashimoto, also the Osaka mayor, told reporters in a building of the Osaka city government.

---

... you can understand why most of Asia doesn't want to see Japan "re-arm". Even though the Japanese military is officially a "self-defence" force, their budget is very similar to that of the UK or France and are already one of the best equipped forces in the world.

To be rehabilitated into the "civilised" world, Japan needs to at least:

- apologise sincerely, without reservations and qualifications, to the people whom the crimes were committed against, for the crimes they have committed from the beginning of the 20th century through to the dropping of the 2 atomic bombs,

- teach their children the real events concerning their quest for Asian dominance - all the atrocities and crimes committed needs to be laid bare and discussed in detail

- hunt down and bring to justice the remaining war criminals, most don't need hunting down since they're well known figures living in comfortable retirement.

- make it unlawful to deny that the Japanese have committed heinous war crimes

- pay reparations to the victims of their crimes, starting with those who have been forced into prostitution

Basically do what Germany did after WW2.

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FAIL

It's all business

US government is bought and payed for by the US corporations. The US diplomatic branche around the world spends most of it's time on greasing the inroads for US corps. The NSA is just making that job easier.

BTW. How can they guarantee no industrial espionage if the raw data is shared with Israel, who has no reservations whatsoever in this regard.

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Anonymous Coward

YAWN

Get media exposure any way you can...

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Gold badge

Don't blame me...

Don't blame me, I voted libertarian. Ron Paul would have been dismantling the NSA by now. The activities of the US government are ill-thought out, and an embarrasment both within and outside the United States.

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Re: Don't blame me...

Why would you believe that? There's no precedent for any President throwing away perfectly good advantages over their enemies.

Regardless, he couldn't do shit without Congressional approval and they hate him worse than Obama. He'd be completely bound up and out the other side would come Ron Hussein Carter: An amalgam of very smart men who were unable to hold the reins of their own governments.

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Employment opportunites ?

I was amused by the sits vac advert for GCHQ situated beside this article, but surely the slogan 'Explore another World' is incorrect ?

Should it not read 'Explore this World' ?

Chris Cosgrove

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Alien

Re: Employment opportunites ?

No, see in their parlance, the contents of your families email is another world. The beings that spy on the populations they manage are unable to understand Hu-man needs for things like respect for their fellow man, the need for privacy and this obsession with small tribal units called "families". Much like the Borg they cannot understand why Hu-mans are unwilling to share their innermost thought with the collective. They explore our world in their attempts to better understand us.

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Re: Employment opportunites ? @Don Jefe

Brilliant post! Thank you for making a serious point with great humour!

Just the other day (whilst avoiding actually being bored to death by "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy" by retreating into my interior world), I decided that, if I ever had to make a choice, I'd be an assassin rather than a spy. Spying is far dirtier than killing people for money ...

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