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back to article Dyson takes Samsung to court in UK over vacuum cleaner

British vacuum cleaner firm Dyson is suing Samsung for "ripping off" one of its inventions for its own Motion Sync hoover. Dyson claims that the new model, which the South Korean chaebol showed off at the IFA technology show in Berlin last week, infringes on its patent for a steering system for cylinder vacuum cleaners. "This …

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Joke

Gratuitous Apple comment

I thought Apple had the patent on going round corners. Or did I misunderstand?...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Gratuitous Apple comment

Seriously, I think they should combine it with the Galaxy Gear. Then it will actually be useful, they'll only have added about 10% to the weight and the battery could hardly be made any worse.

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Anonymous Coward

Shamsung photocopier division...

must also be the R&D department

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This post has been deleted by its author

I really dislike dyson

I've read quite a few reports of them doing this over the years.

Basically when I bought a cleaner my main requirement was "anything except a dyson".

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Re: I really dislike dyson

His hoovers (yes I know they're supposed to be called vacuum cleaners) are crap too. They weigh three times as much as others, take up three times as much space, look stupid, fall apart and are clumsy to use. The only thing going for them is the lack of a bag, which isn't really a big deal as they're no better at cleaning and changing a bag's hardly a big deal.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

You missed the joke icon surely?

We have one of his upright cleaners. It's built like a tank, the suck is mega powerful and not having to buy bags all the time is great. Not only that you can practically unclip anything to remove screws and other large items accidentally picked up and blocking the thing.

It was a bit overpriced, but then we got it with some leaving present money.

Read his book: it's quite a revelation. The industry was so against bagless cleaners, now they're all "They're the best thing ever" now the Dyson cleaners are popular.

Dyson's no angel, but Hoover, Electrolux and the others are all shit bags.

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Happy

Re: I really dislike dyson

My experience is quite the contrary. I find his vacuum cleaners to be far more powerful than the alternatives, able to take a large amounts of abuse - think sucking up large amounts of plaster, brick dust, wood shavings etc, and still keep going. Not only that but they have a service policy that makes financial sense. There's no way I would call a service engineer out for a Hoover, as the cost would be the same as buying a new one, if not more. Dyson will almost completely replace your machine, including new hoses for a fixed fee of £79.

I just wish they made more home appliances. The last time my Bosch dishwasher broke, it cost me a £120 call out fee, and the guy couldn't fix it. We'd have been better off just buying a new one.

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Pint

Re: I really dislike dyson

Like others we've had Electrolux cleaners that have fallen apart after 8 months, the stubby little Dyson we have now has lasted for 4 years so far, granted it only comes out 2-3 times a week but it's not needed any new parts and is working as well as the day we got it.

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Re: I really dislike dyson @real ale is best

Next time you have a home appliance problem, get one of those "we fix it for a fixed fee or you don't pay" callouts - last one I did was £120, and for that got a new PCB for the dishwasher (list price > £120 IIRC).

Annoyingly though, I fixed the old PCB in about 5 minutes - bad solder joint on the heater circuit - problem being I couldn't find it in the dishwasher....still, I now have a spare AND I know where to find the PCB since I watched the guy fix it.

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Anecdotal evidence, but...

...I don't see Dyson vacuum cleaners in skips any more... ten years ago they weren't an uncommon sight, usually with a snapped handle. I can only assume that they have improved over the years.

A Henry... now that's a vacuum cleaner!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson @skelband

I read his book too. Also worked there for many years.

The book is no longer true nor relevant. In fact a long way from it. Form follows function is dead - the whole of R&D (In Malmesbury at least; the parts in India, China, Malaysia are different) works in a warehouse that sounds like the cross between a squash court and swimmingpool. The desks are no longer made in house, and e.g. the metal bracket just to hold your PC to the desk costs an eye watering 180€. The desks were metal, and the keyboards/mice wireless so that they didn't work unless they were touching the recievers and used a set of batteries in a month. The filing cabinets are too small to take A4 paper, and you have to lock your laptop in it at the end of the day, but they don't fit). Putting a ball on a cylinder cleaner was all about being different, not about being better.

Oh, and while there I did a fair amount of reverse engineering of all sorts of other people's kit; we had every single other vacuum cleaner, handheld and various other things. There were also requests not to write anything down, not to use email and not to save anything on a PC on the network to prevent it being found later during "discovery".

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Mine's a Miele

29 year old drag-around, never missed a beat!

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Re: Anecdotal evidence, but...

Aye, any Numatic beats the pants off any Dyson.

Cheap, reliable, effective, robust, fantastic customer support. Made in the UK, too.

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Re: I really dislike dyson @skelband

Well, I've never owned one myself, but my mother has one and so does a friend who I lived with for a few months while my house was being renovated. I guess the overall feel is sturdy. But when you want to use the hose attachment (this was an upright) which you invariably have to, not only do you have to take the hose out, but also a large unnecessary chunk of plastic it's attached to. Then the hose itself will come out the end without you wanting to, forcing you to turn the damn thing off to put it back together. The button you press to angle the upright part (in order to push it) sticks too. And trying to clean staircases is nigh on impossible because the bloody thing won't stay upright. Maybe the non-upright model is more useful.

It's a hell of a lot better than the run-of-the-mill competition, but compared to something in the same league it's not. I've got a Miele one which I was sceptical about forking out for at first but it's built well, quiet, powerful and easy to use. It's over a decade old now though and runs like it did when I bought it. I've treated it like crap too, using it for building work.

I think the biggest problem is he had such a simple, good idea, and put it into an unnecessarily over-complicated, over-sized, impractical package. The washing machine he did was even worse. Big and stupid. The rotor-less fan, however, is a fantastic piece of kit.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

Read about Dyson and you'll see that he is exactly the sort of person we need in this country.

He invented the cyclone suction system and showed it to Hoover, they didn't want it since they were making a fortune selling bags and other accessories.

So he started his own company making vacuum cleaners.

It is no surprise that other companies copied the technology when they saw it was popular and wanted by the public. So why should he roll over and let Hoover and others simply copy what he did when they weren't interested in his ideas?

Samsung make crap vacuum cleaners, so it is no wonder they are copying the successful product, just like they copied the successful phone.

If you are British why on Earth would you want some South Korean knock off company to destroy a British company?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

Not to mention washable filters, no costly filter replacements every 6-12 months.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson @skelband

Reverse engineering goes on everywhere. There's a good reason for it, companies like to work out the cost of a rival's product to work out the profit margin.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

This sucks.

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Silver badge

Re: I really dislike dyson

If you are British why on Earth would you want some South Korean knock off company to destroy a British company?

A British company that shut up all its UK manufacturing facilities and shipped the whole lot over to Asia?

I don't see the difference, myself.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

I think Dyson vacuums are great, robust & powerful, and when bit broke they just sent me the new piece free!

I have two now, the latest is very powerful yet is hand held portable!, bloody amazing I think, although his fans are a bit over priced!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

I like Dyson cleaners but don't kid yourself that he "invented" cyclone cleaners. I worked on industrial cyclone extraction systems while Dyson was knocking out Ball Barrows.

Dyson found a novel application for an existing and well known technology. Very clever and inovative but he didn't invent it.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

How often was 'all the time'? I have not used a Dyson, on a recommendation of a Vaccum cleaner repair shop a few years ago I bought a Sebo. The guy there believed it'd run for 20 years. I have since noticed several hotel operators using them as well, so can't be all bad. Pretty $$ though was around $800. It uses bags of course and I have replaced the bags a few times, always before the vaccum asked me to though(usually because it just gets pretty heavy with a near full bag and I'm lazy so want it lighter and switch the bag). I think on average it has been ~8-10 months between bag switches. So maybe 5 bags in 4 years?

My last vaccum was a hoover I think, a bag less, self proclaiming "never have to change the filter". The filter got clogged so bad it wouldn't suck at all anymore, took it to this repair shop, took what seemed like 3 months to get the filter replaced(it did not have a user replaceable filter).

I didn't buy the Sebo from the repair shop I bought it online. But it seems high quality, so far no issues. I plan to replace the brush as well as air filter too (which they claim only needs to be replaced about once every 30-40 bags or something like that so well ahead of schedule), for no other reason then I feel like it(also the component cost was pretty cheap).

It feels like the suction is just about as good now as it was new, certainly could not say the same about the hoover or the dirt devil I had before the hoover.

From sebo's website:

"Also, all SEBO bags are large capacity, so they hold about 10 times the debris volume, as compared to the debris capacity of dirt containers found on typical bagless vacuums."

Which seems on par with my experience, at least the frequency of me emptying the 'bagless' one is probably 10x more often than replacing the bags on the sebo.

Sebo's certainly aren't the most flashy vaccums out there... I had personally never heard of them until this one guy recommended them to me. Since then I have had my eyes out and see them fairly frequently in commercial environments.

Hopefully I really can go 20 years before getting a new one!

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@skelband and AC... Re: I really dislike dyson @skelband

When the Dyson first hit the states, we gave them a try. We have a house full of pets so you can imagine why we liked having a Dyson... But over the years, it wore out and it was time for a new one.

Unlike the first model, the new one felt cheaper and was a pain to use. Joints would freeze up, couldn't get the extension out of the handle. It lasted 2 years till we said the hell with it.

We replaced it with a Miele and even though its a bagged machine, it works great. Should last us 15-20 years or longer. We paid more than for other models, but we tend to buy things that last longer and want the best quality products we can afford.

If we had to guess, we'd say that Dyson cut corners on quality when they got really popular. Its a shame really.

And the AC is spot on. Gimmicks sell.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

Well you make not like them as a vacuum cleaner but some of them do look like they may come in handy if you suddenly need to fend off an alien invasion :)

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@Real Ale is Best - Re: I really dislike dyson

Wrote :- "There's no way I would call a service engineer out for a Hoover, as the cost would be the same as buying a new one, if not more. Dyson will almost completely replace your machine, including new hoses for a fixed fee of £79"

You are comparing apples with pears. The Dyson scenario you describe is called insurance, while the Hoover scenario is an at-cost call-out. You can get insurance for most appliances - in fact people like Currys fall over themselves to sell appliance insurance.

Personally, I have neither insurance nor have I ever called out a repairman on an at-cost basis. Both are rip-offs. Every breakdown I have ever experienced is either an easy repair or the signal for the end of a long hard life. For example have just scrapped a 15 yo Electrolux vacuum after years of hard work - a plasic moulding had worn through with gradual abrasion.

As for Dyson making more home appliances, you obviously would like to live in what would look like the interior of a Lego house in Toytown. Perhaps you are unaware that Dyson did start marketing some fixed appliances some years ago, but they looked so garishly silly that even Dyson Fanbois walked away. His stuff is the hardware equivalent of tecno-babble - pointless plastic-moulded frippery that looks like from a 1950 sci-fi set. I do believe Dyson himself must be colour blind, in addition to his many other faults.

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WTF?

@pPPPP - Re: I really dislike dyson

Wrote :- "The only thing going for them is the lack of a bag"

You lost me there. And the "advantage" of the lack of a bag is?

What we are talking about is actually a disposable bag. My mother had an early Hoover with no disposable bag. It had a cloth bag that you had to empty into the dustbin (remember when they were called "dustbins"?). In doing this you were lucky not to get the crap all over you, especially if there was a bit of wind at the time.

Then disposable bags came along and they were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread. No more dust in your face when you emptied the crap.

Then Dyson comes along and we are back in my mother's Hoover situation again - emptying a Dyson cylinder is the equivalent of emptying the old Hoover cloth bag. I refer to Dyson vacuums and the clones as "dust storm hoovers". Am I missing soemthing?

Anyway, WTF does anyone want to see their crap in a transparent cylinder? I thought the point of hoovering crap up was because you did not want to see it any more.

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Re: I really dislike dyson @skelband

Dyson's rotorless fan must be one of the noisiest devices known to man for the work it does. Much like the hand driers.

He should probably get a patent for the noise/work ratio.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

2-3 times a week?! Do you have OCD?

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Re: @Real Ale is Best - I really dislike dyson

You misunderstand insurance then. The Dyson charge is a fixed price if/when it breaks we'll come out and fix it deal. Not insurance.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I really dislike dyson

We've had our Dyson for about 12 years or more and it's still going strong (a DC04 I think).

I sucked up a load of building dust rubble and burnt out the motor (my fault I'd removed the filters for cleaning and forgot to replace them) but Dyson replaced the motor and I've had 12 years trouble free since.

I see lots of Dysons at our local refuse tip, but they are about the most popular vacuum and one of the guys there told me most of them are fine and just have bunged up filters - 10 mins cleaning and they're good as new.

Yes it's heavy, yes it's ugly (in a functionally transparent way that I like) but they work well and are reliable.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

There's nothing stopping a cyclonic cleaner having a bag, if designed correctly. By the time you add enough filtration to stop fine dust being sprayed around the room the level of suck is equally poor on both types.

Most blockages I've encountered are in the hose and that will happen anyway.

Interestingly, you can more than double the effectiveness of a vac by venting the exhaust downwards just ahead of the suction nozzle. The patent is held by a nice UK gentleman in his 80s (I've chatted to him a few times) who seems determined to hold out for a UK maker to implement it (I told him not to bother, he'd live comfortably in his retirement on royalties if he licensed it worldwide)

If you really don't want a room full of fine dust, fit a house vac system, or get a large shop-vac-style system and park it outside, with a long hose.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

"think sucking up large amounts of plaster, brick dust, wood shavings etc, and still keep going. Not only that but they have a service policy that makes financial sense. "

One of my friends has had 3 warranty claims denied by Dyson because they'd been "sucking the wrong kind of dust."

Needless to say she doesn't buy 'em any more.

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Re: I really dislike dyson

" just wish they made more home appliances. The last time my Bosch dishwasher broke, it cost me a £120 call out fee, and the guy couldn't fix it. We'd have been better off just buying a new one."

No you don't. Look at the Wikipedia article about their washing machines. They weren't particularly reliable.

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Re: @pPPPP - I really dislike dyson

"Anyway, WTF does anyone want to see their crap in a transparent cylinder? I thought the point of hoovering crap up was because you did not want to see it any more."

When you see little jimmy's legos in there you can fish 'em out.

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Coat

El Reg in Duster Buster Generic Trademark Fluster

"Dyson is suing Samsung for "ripping off" one of its inventions for its own Motion Sync hoover."

hoover... Surely that should be Motion Sync vacuum cleaner?

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Headmaster

While we're on the subject...

Let's not forget

a) Dr Frankenstein's monster; and

b) Tanoy's public address system.

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Re: While we're on the subject...

Watching Alan Partridge the other night were we?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: While we're on the subject...

Portaloo

Biro

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Can't stand the man, but he has a point

James Dyson is an 'orrible little man with a history of thrashing the crap out of the talented designers that work for him, but here the simple fact is that Samsung ripped him off. Anybody with half an eye can see this. I wish him luck with his lawsuit, if only for the team of dedicated professionals working for him who deserve better than this.

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@Lord Elpuss - Re: Can't stand the man, but he has a point

Wrote :- "James Dyson is an 'orrible little man"

Agreed/ My wife has dealt with him personally, as her company is a supplier of materials to his. He is a piece of shit. His real character is quite different from his public image.

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Re: Can't stand the man, but he has a point

Samsung are photocopier engineers to a man.

In this case, my sympathy falls with him, as the least obnoxious party in the case.

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Trollface

This whole thing sucks...

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Anonymous Coward

Yes - it's a cock up.

Hang on, stuck.

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I read the Dyson Patent, seems like they took an idea like a kids tricycle and modified into a vacuum steering mechanism. I'm sure it's not that simple, maybe someone can explain how the Dyson design patent is so revolutionary.

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Inspiration comes from many things. As long as it hasn't been done before or is obvious to those in the industry, it can be patented.

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Bah!

Well, you've had years to fix the potentially lethal and poorly engineered hose on the DC 25 Mr Dyson. Where is it?

Downvote away. I have a DC25 and know the unpopular truth.

Also: Never looses suction, true, but won't clean so much as a paper punching off the floor if the carpet beater gets clogged, as it will in a real house.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Bah!

on the other hand I have a DC04 upright that is still going years after I received it as a hand-me-down

and on the other other hand the DC05 cylinder model that was another hand-me-down had to be junked when the switch in the handle went. But until then it could suck the carpet off the stairs if I wasn't careful.

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Re: Bah!

> ...the switch in the handle went.

I would have fixed the switch.

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