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back to article Nokia's PHAB-ULOUS comeback attempt: Huge WinPho 8 mobe rumoured

Nokia plans to join the phone-cum-tablet "phablet" craze from next month to add to its Lumia line-up. Sources whispered to Reuters that the Finnish goliath's engineers have created more than one new device for a launch in late September. The new kit will include a thin phablet - a phone with a screen more than five inches …

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Meh

Band Waggon

Getting on the band wagon so late in the day could backfire on them. It will have to be exceptionally good to make an impact and that is unlikely to happen.

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Meh

Re: Band Waggon

And worse, the Windows RT bandwagon already has a flat tyre and is parked at the side of the road waiting hopefully for salvation...

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Go

Sir, I must take exception to your statement

It's not really a Windows RT band wagon, more of an out of control train barreling off a cliff.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Band Waggon

Late on the bandwagon?

Most phablets I've seen don't do 1080p screens. Which is bizarre given you need more resolution on a bigger device.

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Re: Sir, I must take exception to your statement

More like a kid's Red Ryder wagon in a ditch with the whells broke off from the weight piled on it because the user was promised that is was a new style of business lorry.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Band Waggon

It's a Nokia.. you know the hardware will be bullet proof. Chucking in four processors for Windows to chew on should keep it happy, I dare say it will be less clunky that Android on equivalent hardware. It will all hinge on how much the UI puts people off.

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Anonymous Coward

It will all hinge on how much the UI puts people off.

Not the fact you look like a moron if you try to make a call then????

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Re: Sir, I must take exception to your statement

Train implies momentum. It's more like a rusty wheel barrow with a couple of wheels missing.

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Anonymous Coward

Normally you jump on a fast moving, successful appearing bandwagon.

Not one where all the wheels have already dropped off and the driver has legged it because you're in a bad part of town.

Windows RT? no need to develop a device surely, take some of MSFTs spare RT tablets and just paint them a silly, bright, colour or simply re-box them in that bright plastic composite stuff.

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Thumb Down

You might find that building the RT device is a contractual obligation.

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Sounds nice. Now if Nokia adds pen support and maybe a N770 style case I buy four (Me, dad, mom, grandma) and play "drown the Fragmentdroids in the (e)bay"

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Anonymous Coward

Oh, because there's no fragmentation in WP? Tell that to the WP7.x victims or even the WP8.x people with so little memory/storage that they can't install the bigger applications/games in the store, thanks to 512MB RAM and some handsets with ~2.8GB available storage from factory.

Note that I'm not aware of the issues personally, as I don't know anyone with WP. I used to be a WM user though and I do listen to the AAWP podcast (to get a balanced view of what's available) which is pro-WP and still mentions these issues.

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Def
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Re: people with so little memory

"people with so little memory/storage that they can't install the bigger applications/games in the store, thanks to 512MB RAM and some handsets with ~2.8GB available storage from factory."

That's hardly the fault of the OS though. Since the dawn of time people have needed to upgrade to be able to install the latest and greatest applications on pretty much any system. Whatever you buy, you're going to run out of something (memory, storage, friends, etc) sooner or later.

My HTC 8X came with 1GB of RAM, and 16GB of storage, and it's still got about 10GB free. Apparently the OS is using just over 2GB of that storage space. (Which is still pretty crazy if you ask me, but that seems to be par for the course these days.) I'm not the sort of person who really cares too much about apps and games though, so I don't expect my storage space to drastically drop anytime soon.

My girlfriend's Google Nexus (the original one) wont let her install or update anything because there isn't enough free memory available, so this definitely isn't purely a symptom of WP.

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Re: people with so little memory

"people with so little memory/storage that they can't install the bigger applications/games in the store, thanks to 512MB RAM and some handsets with ~2.8GB available storage from factory."

That's hardly the fault of the OS though.

No. it is the fault of the OS developer not properly anticipating application requirements and communicating meaningful recommended specifications to manufacturers and end users.

Since the dawn of time people have needed to upgrade to be able to install the latest and greatest applications on pretty much any system. Whatever you buy, you're going to run out of something (memory, storage, friends, etc) sooner or later.

True enough. But Windows Phone 8 isless than one year old. By contrast, your girlfriend's Google Nexus originally came out in 2010 -- making the specification for it over 3.5 years old. That's a pretty common timeframe for an upgrade cycle in the smartphone world. <1 year is just absurd.

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@AC:

What "WP7 victims"? WP7 is still getting updates and bugfixes. No Upgrade to WP8 but unlike quite a few abandoned Androids with known bugs all WP7 units are supported. And we are talking "top of the line" from HTC and Samsung that got abandoned, not landfill units.

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Re: people with so little memory

Actually its no one's fault. The OS developer has to balance out a wide ecosystem. Not everyone can afford the Galaxy S4, iPhone 5 and Lumia 920. The Lumia 520 is the big marketshare grower for Microsoft and its the Android landfill phones that pushed Google to the number one spot.

Microsoft tried the higher RAM road when WP7 first launched when 512MB was the minimum requirement, Microsoft had to release the Tango update just so that OEMs could put in as little as 256MB to sell them at budget prices to compete in the emerging markets.

High specs gets you games and website articles, low specs get you sales.

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2 WP OS versions is hardly comparable to the hundreds of flavours of fragmented Android....

See http://allaboutwindowsphone.com/features/item/17975_What_apps_are_incompatible_wit.php

"Out of 149,078 currently live (active) content items that we are currently tracking in the Windows Phone 8 Store, 331 (0.24%) are not compatible with 512MB devices. When just looking at the games category, which has the highest proportion of incompatible content items, these figures are 65 out of 17,029 items (0.361%)

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FAIL

And we are talking "top of the line" from HTC and Samsung that got abandoned, not landfill units.

You may be right about HTC, but the Galaxy S2 and S3 are still getting updates.

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I'd live to try a Nokia phone but with an 18 month or 2 years contract running at £35 - £45 a month that's a lot of time and money invested if it turns out to be a lemon.

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Mrs Shallot just got a Nokia Lumia 920 for £25 on a Vodafone contract.

It is bright yellow but it doesn't seem to be a lemon.

I have to say that in spite of my scepticism I was quite impressed when I had a play although I won't be going in that direction myself.

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Anonymous Coward

PAYG

http://www.wpcentral.com/nokia-lumia-820-available-just-179-tesco SIM Free nice mid range phone

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That seems to be the usual response from people I know who have either had a play around with a display model or a mate's handset, or are given one as a work phone.

"It's kinda nice, but not really for me"

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Get hold of the 520 - cheap enough to have a fiddle with and not so expensive if you have to unload it at a car boot sale.

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Anonymous Coward

Big screen with WP = big fail.

"That seems to be the usual response from people I know who have either had a play around with a display model or a mate's handset, or are given one as a work phone.

"It's kinda nice, but not really for me""

It's far worse than that. It's fairly useless as a professional coms-tool. Compared to Windows Mobile which had the following features that Windows Phone lacks.

- Full bluetooth filetransfers with capable file-manager

- 2 way call recording

- full local/BT Outlook syncing including contact-categories

---> in Activesync 3.8 you could even sync over wifi

- file manager had SMB/CIFS capability build in

Plus for power users you were able to "sideload" EVERY app. Sure for dumbtwats with too much money in their wallets a central software repository is a godsend. But I loved the freedom of WM.

The problem is that these advantages were also apparent in Nokia's Symbian. Call recording was even easier, more consistent across different devices and of much better quality too. Outlook categories were converted to contact groups which is fine as well. Symbian too had a file manager with full bluetooth transfer (or alternatives with SMB/CIFS). It previously (S^3 ANNA) even had webdav for sharing data with your PC.

Windows Phone is severely crippled compared to this. So no wonder that WP runs with a smaller footprint as the "others". Most basic features aren't even build-in. There isn't even a file manager build in. there's no memorecorder-app. WP is a very basic walled-garden phone with the added value of "apps" , itonly uses faster cpu's and higher resolution screens than WM.

I'm not convinced that this wil save them (just like so many people except the morons at Nokia itself)

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Re: Big screen with WP = big fail.

@ac

What is the use of sync with Outlook? The WP units can sync with Exchange they do not need to use a client to speak with the server.

BT file transfer? Why in the days of WLAN?

Walled garden? Maybe but at least one with a gardener that takes care of the plants for more than six month. Better than the "Hippy garden" where no one looks after the stuff and more choice than the fruitpacker company

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Re: Big screen with WP = big fail.

Not everyone uses Exchange and the point of direct Outlook sync would be synchronization without some other party, like cloud or server.

How exactly do you transfer a file over WLAN? Assuming you could access a random file, which you can't.

I disagree, better a hippy garden with a frackton of plants in it than a walled garden, which is almost empty and inconsistent and the plants that it has are too young to be shown (used) or too simple.

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Re: Big screen with WP = big fail.

Outlook without Exchange, Notes without Domino, Rheinmetall MG-3 without a second gunner/ammo carrier are basically useless and/or too heavy for what they can do.

As for the rest - ask a WP8 user, not me

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JDX
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Nokia Tablet

Wouldn't they be better putting WP8 on it? Or does MS stipulate they cannot?

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Re: Nokia Tablet

WP8's GUI probably won't scale to tablet just like Android's didn't initially. I've got so confused by Microsoft's strategy but I think that RT is WP8 for tablets (ARM architecture, all kinds of code and app restrictions).

Can't see Nokia funding a tablet themselves. But the "Surface 2" could be be badged and rebranded as Nokia as MS tries to get away from the tarnished image. In that case expect the OS to get a lick of paint at well and be either WP for tablets or some such, even if it is RT 8.1.

Wait and see, I guess. But it's going to be increasingly hard to catch up with Samsung's UI innovations on large phones / tablets: split screen is probably already patented.

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Trollface

Re: Nokia Tablet

"WP8's GUI probably won't scale to tablet just like Android's didn't initially." -- but, but, but, Windows 8 is supposed to scale from phone to tablet to desktop. What would be the point of Windows 8 if it cant do that ... oh wait!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Nokia Tablet

" Windows 8 is supposed to scale from phone to tablet to desktop. What would be the point of Windows 8 if it cant do that ... oh wait!"

The Window 8 KERNEL does scale well from phones to multi-hundred core servers. And it's miles more secure, responsive and efficient than Android - and works better with low memory amounts...Well over 99% of WP apps and games will work even on the handsets with the smallest amount of RAM....

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FAIL

Re: Nokia Tablet

And it's miles more secure, responsive and efficient than Android - and works better with low memory amounts...Well over 99% of WP apps and games will work even on the handsets with the smallest amount of RAM....

Oh do fuck off! NT scales no better than any other modern OS, it's not more secure and, as a kernel it uses more memory. Android can use more resources because it can put an app in a VM. This makes the whole system more secure but all systems are open to abuse.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Nokia Tablet

Actually the Windows kernel IS more secure by design - It is a modern hybrid microkernel based design as opposed to the legacy monolithic Linux one. This means that you can properly isolate device drivers from the kernel for instance.

WP is demonstrable proof that the kernel scales better on a mobile device in terms of performance, responsiveness and latency than Android.

The same is true on the desktop (e.g. Windows 8 outperforms the latest Ubuntu in most benchmarks) and also on the server stack (e.g. Hyper-V Server 2012 significantly outperforms Linux as a hypervisor, and Windows Server 2012 outperforms Linux as a fileserver - including as an NFS server!)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Nokia Tablet

" as a kernel it uses more memory"

No - it has a smaller footprint than the Linux kernel. This is partly why WP devices can run smoothly with very small memory sizes - that are almost unusable with Android.

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Flame

Re: Nokia Tablet

Android is not Linux. You are comparing apples with moonrocks.

If it's so compact why isn't Windows NT running on my television, my router or my Raspberry Pi? Because the Linux kernel although monolithic, incidentally just like NT since v 4 IIRC, can be stripped down and optimised for a particular hardware configuration. Why is Microsoft still peddling Windows CE for embedded devices if NT is a low memory solution.

Of course, Symbian stomps on both Android and WP when it comes to running a full multi-tasking OS in little memory. As does QNX when it comes to it.

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Stick an Atom processor in there and ship Windows

Imagine a phone which ran full Windows 8. Now *that* would be an interesting device. It might have a 6" display and metro for phone / tablet behaviour but dump it in a dock and suddenly it's a computer too.

That's far more useful than sticking poxy RT on it.

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Re: Stick an Atom processor in there and ship Windows

Sounds great.... perhaps bundle it with a stylus to make desktop mode software usable (why else would you need full Win8). Maybe add some letters to let people know its a super duper new version. How does Win8CE sound?

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Re: Stick an Atom processor in there and ship Windows

So that you could plug in a monitor and a keyboard and only need one computer?

(I doubt this will ever happen, especially with Atom chippery, but it's a potential reason).

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Re: Stick an Atom processor in there and ship Windows

Depnds on what the Baytrail units deliver when they come out. IF they got 4GB of memory and a decend boost in graphics and cpu speed they can replace the average privat/office system except for games. Current gen C-Trails are restricted by their 2GB and "pseudo SSD" limitations, both gone on Baytrail

OTOH as soon as I go above 5inches I need a bag/attache case for the unit anyway (unless you are into cargo throusers). And if I get at that point units like the Sony Vaio Duo (13 or 11+Sheet) or Lenovo Helix look very tempting.

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Re: Stick an Atom processor in there and ship Windows

"So that you could plug in a monitor and a keyboard and only need one computer?"

Yes. The dock could be a port replicator.

The concept isn't new either - the Oqo and other computers tried it but didn't have the benefit of low power CPUs or a UI which was designed to work with a touch screen.

"(I doubt this will ever happen, especially with Atom chippery, but it's a potential reason)."

It's already possible. The latest generation of Atom processors are capable of powering tablets and phones with similar performance envelopes as ARM.

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"strength continues to lie in its cheaper models"

Now remember that sales only crept upward when Lumia prices shot down with multiple budget builds. Nokia already played the 'budget' card and it's moved them from 'totally insignificant' to 'insignificant' in the smartphone market.

At some point it's time to give up pretending Nokia can compensate for the buyer repelling use of Winphone with better hardware and lower prices. It's visibly not working for them.

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Re: "strength continues to lie in its cheaper models"

Nokia need to get out of the budget smartphone market where they are losing money on every sale (negative 3% margin according to most recent financials, and likely to increase as the ASP sinks lower) unless they can start shipping MediaTek or Rockchip based hardware.

Relying on relatively expensive Qualcomm gear to stuff into your budget Lumias is commercial suicide. Of course this requires that Microsoft introduce platform diversity, and since this doesn't seem likely any time soon it leaves Nokia up a creek without a paddle.

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Not a problem with WP8 itself

It seems like a perfectly nice smartphone OS that's bright, attractive and responsive. It also runs admirably on low-end hardware, better than some of the Android crap.

It could have been a runaway success if it was released around the same time as Android. But it wasn't. So it's fucked.

Most people are already tied to the iOS or Android masts (or both like me.) What would persuade me to jump to a new ecosystem? Nothing I've seen. Being as good as, or even marginally better than, existing systems will not persuade any great numbers to jump ship. Indeed, the ship has sailed (to switch nautical metaphors clumsily.)

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Next from Nokia

Automatic stable door locks. Detect when a horse has left the stable and automatically locks the door.

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FAIL

E-flop

The only way this device could possibly be successful would be for them to dump Vista RT and install Android on it instead.

Stephen E-Flop needs to be sacked, along with all of the Microsoft loyalists at Nokia. Any other action will cause Nokia to cease to exist.

No one wants Vista Phone. No one wants Vista RT. No one wants Vista 8 (or Vista 8.1) on their desktops. It's time for Micro$oft to realize that, and correct their course.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: E-flop

Erm - maybe you havn't noticed but Nokia Lumia sales are growing at over 30% a quarter, Nokia just bought the outstanding 50% of the profitable NSN for a cheap price, and they are forecast to be back in overall profit by Q3 or Q4 this year, and Windows Phone is about to cross 10% UK market share.....

Apple are apparently getting so worried about the seemingly inevitable taking of their Second Place spot by Windows Phone that there are rumours that they are considering trying to compete on price!

Elop has successfully turned Nokia around - unlike Blackberry which is still dying.

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Anonymous Coward

The final death-throws

sounds like the random moves of a final death throw, the last roll of the dice, finally putting Windows Phone out of it's misery? Sounds much like it.

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Headmaster

Re: The final death-throws

throe. Not throw.

Yet another reason not to take you seriously.

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Too late, Microsoft.

I wanted a Windows phone, and had been waiting since last winter to get something bigger than Nokia's smallish phones (by today's standard), only to give up and get the 5" Sony Xperia Z, the main selling points being the 1080p screen, and 13mp camera.

This new Nokia however, would have been perfect. I'm tall, and have fairly huge hands, so the 6" screen would have fit me to a T.

But really, how and why was there ever even a question as to whether a large phone would sell?

Does Microsoft not do the same marketing research that Samsung does?

Well, maybe I'll try out a Windows phone when it's time to upgrade again.

Hopefully they won't be so late to the party again. That's if they're even still in business then.

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