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back to article Nokia wrings Lumia bling fling, but feature-mobes ding stings

Fallen giant Nokia continued to claw its way back to relevance in the second quarter of 2013: it sold 7.4 million Lumia phones, up 32 per cent from the first three months of the year, but losses in its legacy feature-phone business put a slight dampener on the good news. Overall revenue is down 24 per cent, year on year, to €5. …

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My left testicle...

...is what I would give for an Android phone running on Nokia hardware.

Failing that (and I haven't seen any airborne pigs lately), I have to say the Lumia 1020 is tempting me greatly from what I've seen so far. They'd have to make do with my cash for it though, rather than either of my two veg.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: My left testicle...

Really, Nokia build quality isn't what it used to be. I wouldn't want even a Nokia with Android. That said, a Nokia with Android would be a million times more marketable than the Windows Phone crap they are trying to offload onto unsuspecting consumers right now.

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@ joeW - Re: My left testicle...

halfway there . . .

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Re: My left testicle...

Not sure I'd give a testicle away, but if Nokia were putting out Symbian Belle on the current Lumina hardware, I'd have bought one over an HTC last Christmas... Prior to that I was using the cracking little 6300.

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Re: My left testicle...

Watch the phone buff video where a guy hammers a nail into wood using the centre of a Nokia 920 screen, followed by throwing 20 feet into the air onto tarmac and then hitting it like a baseball (with the same piece if 2x4 I think). Obviously, there is an iPhone video along similar lines, no baseball bat though, no nail either - the screen is already broken (albeit functional) following the standard drop test.

And, having seen a work colleague have to replace his S3 screen because it broke falling off a table onto carpet and the countless iPhones I see in the wild with busted screens I would sooner have a Nokia any day. And I am more than happy with WP8, had Maemo, very cool phone, awesome capability but nowhere near as slick and nothing like the battery life I see of 2 days. Android seems serviceable, albeit like the wild west with a million differing versions/forks/ports and whatnots. No other standard phone even comes close to the 920 as far as durability, not to mention the camera, soon to be bettered by...hmmm, another Nokia!

Can't wait!

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Re: My left testicle...

I wonder how many of the "I would buy Nokia if it would run Android" people have actually tried WP8 for any length of time. I'm no Microsoft fan, but I find the OS does its job, as far as I'm concerned. Lack of apps is often cited, but I have not missed anything there. No Instagram? There are about dozen of WP apps for making you photos look like old Polaroids if that is what you really want + a lot of actually useful image processing apps, many by Nokia itself. Technically the app store is smaller than the competition's, but in practice that is a problem only if collecting as many apps as possible is your hobby...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: My left testicle...

I guess you havn't used Windows Phone. Its a far more efficient and nicer to use OS than Android.

Android is also based on Linux, so suffers from the inherent security architecture limitations and high number of vulnerabilities of that platform....

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Re: My left testicle...

My 800 seems pretty robust. Stupidly dropped it as I was going downstairs the other day, it caught my foot, so I essentially kicked it 6m down to the bottom of the (carpeted) stairs, and it's fine. My poor N900 only died after it flew out of my pocket at 20km/h, skidded across three lanes of traffic in to a large lump of granite (it still boots, just the screen's gone awol)

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Re: My left testicle...

"That said, a Nokia with Android would be a million times more marketable than the Windows Phone crap they are trying to offload onto unsuspecting consumers right now."

They sold 7m Lumia last quarter, let's call it 25M for the full year.

You're saying that if they dumped Windows and used Android that they'd then sell 25 BILLION phones in a year?

I suspect that's not true because if it were, they'd be doing it.

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Re: My left testicle...

"There are about dozen of WP apps for making you photos look like old Polaroids if that is what you really want"

The thing is, there is more to Instagram than the silly image filters. There is also a huge social network behind it as well. There may be similar apps for WP but if they don't connect to Instagram's network, people who use and enjoy Instagram aren't going to want to buy a Windows phone no matter how good the OS may or may not be.

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Re: My left testicle...

You sound like a fanboi

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Re: My left testicle...

"There may be similar apps for WP but if they don't connect to Instagram's network, "

Actually, some of them do connect (like "Instance", supposedly). No idea how well, since I don't have an Instagram account, and don't even know anyone who does, Facebook seems to be the only social network that matters to the people I know (one or two use Google+). May be a regional difference.

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LDS
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Re: My left testicle...

WP8 issues are not the lack of apps - it's it is too much "consumer oriented". For example I got a Lumia to discover the mail application can attach only photos - WTF??? Sure you can attach a document from Office, but if I want to attach one from mail directly because I already typed it? THe phonebook group feature is useless, it's limited to 25 contacts and there is no multiselection to add them. And it can't be used to filter incoming calls - it's only good for teenagers to spam their friends with messages, but not to organize contacts and keep out unwanted calls when you need it.

The SD card can be used only for music and photos, you can't store there maps and documents - not even sync Skydrive there. These are not Nokia faults, but those in charge of WP8 looks now obsessed by the "social consumer" market and removed a lot of needed features by professional users - I need phone/PDA, not a "social" Phone/GameBoy. Nor I need a phone/camera, I've already better cameras to take pictures.

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Re: My left testicle...

"There may be similar apps for WP but if they don't connect to Instagram's network,"

They do connect to Instagram.

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missed opportunity with the strap line?

Disappointing ker-ching lacking zing

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Re: missed opportunity with the strap line?

throw me hat in da ring: time to fling dis ting with bing

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Anonymous Coward

It is time for Plan B.

The failure of Windows 8 means Windows Phone 8 suffers too.

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Are you suggesting that WP8 would suffer less without Windows 8? Because last time I asked, the like/dislike ratio was much better for W8 than for WP8.

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Anonymous Coward

Shipped not sold.

Nokia have learnt some tricks from Microsoft it seems when Elop joined. They stuff the retail chain with product to make reports look good.

Stockrooms are bulging with unsold Windows Phone, and it's OS marketshare is on the decline according to Comscore. Yet Nokia seem keen on playing numbers games in their market reports...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shipped not sold.

Not that old chestnut again. Do grow up and learn some objectivity.

There is always a gap between the two figures for every manufacturer as products makes it's way through the chain - but if the phones weren't selling then the middlemen (networks/shops) wouldn't be buying.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shipped not sold.

"Stockrooms are bulging with unsold Windows Phone, and it's OS marketshare is on the decline according to Comscore"

Nokia's recent report shows that channel inventory is if anything low (i.e. they can't make many models fast enough to keep up with demand).

WP OS Market share is growing over 100% year on year. The Comscore report referred only to the US (which is one of the worlds least significant major mobile markets) - and is because of a relatively high installed base of older Windows Mobile phones being retired. The market share of Windows Phone is increasing rapidly - as is clear from 32% QoQ growth of Lumia sales.

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Anonymous Coward

More job cuts to come

On page 11, another 440 to be "re-structured."

Goodness knows what and for whom the new factory in Vietnam is producing, given the drop in mobile phones (Series 40) volumes.

So much focus on North America for a laughable 500K a quarter.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: More job cuts to come

I don't understand the focus on the North American market. In fact, I don't understand why BlackBerry bother to try and make any consumer sales in the USA.

This isn't trolling. The costs of entry to that market are enormous and if you are not huge (Samsung, Apple) life will always be a struggle, whereas many expanding markets are much cheaper to enter and have the possibility of rapid growth. The EU now has a much larger total population than the USA, and the total size of the combined middle class in BRIC who can afford smartphones is probably larger too.

I appreciate that Nokia is now de facto a hardware wing of Microsoft, but one would have thought by now that Microsoft would be preparing itself for the post - US Imperial era. If BlackBerry can make keyboard phones with Arabic equivalents on the keypad, clearly someone is doing the arithmetic.

The hypnotic effects of the mantra that the US is the only market that matters when it comes to global marketing may be causing a reality distortion field.

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Re: More job cuts to come

Like it or not but the US market still gets much of the press and still has some glamour. This is changing to some extent but there still is only three real markets in the world for higher end smartphones - North America, Europe and Asia. Hard to forgo any of the three and be considered a global player. With feature phones yeah you can throw in the 3rd world but for Lumia not so much.

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FAIL

Damn numbers

The Toy Phone Brigade™ that comprise the 520 and the 620 its where Nokia is doing money from the Lumia range, which means that the high-end models are a flop. Limiting the 1020, the only model capable of grabing interest (not for the OS that it uses...), to the US market only, means that lots of interest will be lost in Europe for example (Andrew will buy it anyway...). So, no, Nokia its not doing good fora comeback, quite the opposite, more to the oblivion I must say.

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Re: Damn numbers

>The Toy Phone Brigade™ that comprise the 520 and the 620

Don't know about 520, but the 620 is not a toy phone. I find it better than the previous midrange 710, making it possibly the best value for money in the lineup.

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Re: Damn numbers

The Toy Phone Brigade™ it's a reference to the Windows Phone UI. The reporter and Nokia's CEO insist "ad nauseum", that in using Android the phone makers can't differentiate their offerings. Comparing Nokia, Samsung, HTC and other WPhone licensees, can anyone tell me the differences in their models?

With the 1020, Nokia now has something really different (no Nokia Maps please, their routing algorithms still stink), but the Pureview tech could have been ported to a N9 successor as well (which design Nokia used for their first Lumias and tried to pass the idea that the design was intended for the Windows Phones?) so, yeah, you have the budget appealing 520/620 and the high end 1020, but what then? People can say whatever they want about Nokia Lumias, but if we had the chance to choose between a Lumia Pureview or a N9 Pureview, I have no doubts that the later would steam rolled the former.

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claw its way back to relevance?

Well, if they are still making a loss of $155M despite a $250M cheque from their big daddy, that their average selling price is going down $40 and that their average margin per handset is now -1.2% that's certainly not clawing its way back to relevance, it's called being on its way to irrelevance.

No wonder even Mr Steve" I'd buy anything" Ballmer thrown the towel..

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Anonymous Coward

Re: claw its way back to relevance?

Read the article again.

A massive billion-plus hit this quarter for the NSN acquisition. Take that into account (as it has no relevance to the handset numbers you are discussing) and your quibbles over a loss of $155M seem rather petty.

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Re: claw its way back to relevance?

You missed part of the equation there, Nokia put $500 million from the purchase of Siemens share in their network in this quarter.

That means the $155 million loss includes a $500 million payment, taking into account the $250 million from Microsoft which means Nokia effectively made a $95 million profit. If the sales stay as hey are now Nokia would see a loss for the next 2 quarters, break even on the third and return to profit by the fourth.

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Anonymous Coward

the market continues to reject WP

... because it's shit. Only the nice hardware and Nokia brand (what's left of it) draw people in.

Elop must go!

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Re: the market continues to reject WP

It seems that Elop did a hatchet job on Nokia and then tried to get MS to buy it. Monkey boy didn't buy it.

So I suppose Nokia are now channel stuffing to make it look better to other potential buyers (Huawei? Lenovo?). For that to work they'd probably have to do a complete about-face on their choice of OS though.

Maybe in a couple more quarters Elop will finally be fired by Nokia's board and the wreckage can be added to his CV.

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Re: the market continues to reject WP

Don't extrapolate from your views to presume everyone else feels the same.

I don't get on with iOs. we've got four Android devices in the house and none of them work entirely properly.

When my wife and I bought new phones last month we *chose* Windows Phone deliberately. I like it - it works properly, it's easy to use and it's affordable. My Lumia 820 seems easily as capable as an iPhone and more capable than the Samsung Android it replaced.

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Re: the market continues to reject WP

Indeed. But it's the operators' views that count. For a start they don't like Skype.

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Phones slumped 32%, In total an operating loss of €115m.

Dying more slowly is not recovery.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Phones slumped 32%, In total an operating loss of €115m.

Reread the article.

Phones slumped 32% because of the drop in feature phones. This has no relevance to the growth of Lumia.

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FAIL

Re: Phones slumped 32%, In total an operating loss of €115m.

Phones slumped 32% because of the drop in feature phones. This has no relevance to the growth of Lumia.

Feature Phones net sales dropped 39% YoY, -12% QoQ.

However, Lumia net sales dropped 24% YoY/flat QoQ.

Lumia ASP is down 18%, with a margin that is negative 1.2%.

Lumia volume is up but net sales (income, which is what matters) is down thanks to an ASP in free-fall as Nokia has next to no high-end volume. Lumia is only really selling at the low-end (520, 620 etc.) where Nokia makes a loss on every sale.

The Lumia ASP is falling at a faster rate to head off landfill Android than any increased volume of sales can counteract.

Nokia needs to become more competitive at the high-end and achieve significantly higher ASP. Is the Lumia 1020 the device for this? If it's not, nothing else will be. We'll know soon enough in another 3 months.

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Is Windows Phone the new S60?

I know someone that bought a Nokia Windows Phone because he realised he didn't use Android Apps or Widgets any more and thought maybe better camera and battery life. He thinks the GUI is like a toy though. But how much GUI do you need for phone calls, photo taking, music playing, maps and Browser?

Problem is that a Desktop PC needs more than that. Even a tablet needs better than the Zune GUI Ver 2013.

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Re: Is Windows Phone the new S60?

The title you used doesn't correlate with the post itself very well. In any case, I'm quite sure that such comparison is out of place.

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Smart Devices volume (million units) Q2 2013: 7.4, Q2 2012: 10.2, YOY Change = -27%. So Nokia's smartphones sales have reduced by nearly 30% since the same quarter last year. And other figures are mostly negative volumes and growths, so it paints a rather bleak picture of Nokia's future.

I wonder what Elop's supposed plan B is? Sell to Microsoft?

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Anonymous Coward

"it paints a rather bleak picture of Nokia's future."

When you consider that the Smartphone drop was due to the retiring of legacy Symbian handsets, that Nokia are basically making a profit when exceptional items are removed, and that Lumia sales are currently growing at 32% a quarter, or 300% a year, then I would say that Nokia has a great future....

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Facepalm

7.4 million phones = 5 days for Android

A quarters sales is being touted as a success when Android activates that number every 5 days?

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Re: 7.4 million phones = 5 days for Android

Comparing a single phone manufacturer to many others, TVs, tablets and who knows what else - all of which combined? Are you sure?

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Re: 7.4 million phones = 5 days for Android

"A quarters sales is being touted as a success when Android activates that number every 5 days?"

Android is an operating system. Nokia is a manufacturer. Do you see the difference?

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Roo
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The sad thing is ...

Nokia could have quite easily shipped Android with their own UI, plus a suite of Nokia apps/utilities that are locked to their phones for the USP. They could have skinned Android to mollify the Landfill snobs as well without the joy of having MS to tell them what hardware they are allowed to run the software they paid for on.

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Re: The sad thing is ...

I'd rather go with MeeGo / Sailfish than touching anything Google is behind. In fact, I'd rather go with Symbian, but that's just me.

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Re: The sad thing is ...

"I'd rather go with MeeGo / Sailfish than touching anything Google is behind. In fact, I'd rather go with Symbian, but that's just me."

The problem is that you're in a tiny minority which is why Nokia ended up in such a bad place. No-one bought the smartphones running their own OS.

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Re: The sad thing is ...

MeeGo was universally praised, Symbian in its Belle incarnation is quite usable.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The sad thing is ...

@TerryBarnes

Are you forgetting that Elop refused to sell the N9 in almost all the major markets?

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Pint

Micosoft similarly bling, fling, ding, springs etc

Funny headline, but not as funny as this :-)

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