back to article Nokia, Microsoft put on brave face as Lumia 925s parachute into Blighty

Nokia's latest premium smartphone, the Lumia 925, is now shipping in the UK. And staff at the mobe-maker told reporters they will be working more closely with Microsoft, which is responsible for the handset's Windows Phone 8 OS, with most of the cooperation focusing on joint-marketing campaigns. The new Lumia 925 puts the guts …

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£37 a month?

Who on earth is buying these things?

Oh yeah, no one!!

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Re: £37 a month?

I was under the impression that despite all the negativity, sales were fairly good on Windows handsets. Think I even saw the figure on here somewhere.

Could be wrong.

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Re: £37 a month?

Nokia is likely to announce a profit warning to investors within the next few weeks, the Royal Bank of Canada has suggested, after worse than expected sales in Q2 2013. Lumia shipments haven’t met with Nokia’s predictions, the RBC claimed in a note to investors today, Finnish paper Taloussanomat reports, with operating margin for the smart devices division tipped to be around -3%.

Nokia had forecast a strong growth in Windows Phone sales back when it announced its Q1 2013 figures, suggesting that sequential growth in unit volumes would be “higher than the 27% sequential growth in the first quarter.” However, it still expected its Devices & Services operating margin to be around -2% (+/- 4-points).

According to the bank’s numbers, Nokia is estimated to sell 30m smartphones – down 2m from the previous estimates – while regular phone sales will drop from 218m to 193m, it’s suggested. The claimed reason for the shortfall is one we’ve heard many times before: cheap Android phones eating into the entry-level segment.

It’s not been a good few months for Nokia. Earlier this week, it was suggested that even in the company’s own home territory, Finland, Samsung was now outselling Nokia phones.

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Meh

I heard

I heard a box of two hundred fell off the back of a delivery van during transit.

They were all handed in.

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Re: £37 a month?

Nokia is famously liberal in what they consider a smartphone. The majority of those 30 million are not windows phones from what I understand.

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Mushroom

Re: £37 a month?

Yep - WP sales are not bad - 8.4% UK market share as of the latest figures (April). It overtook Blackberry long ago.

As to "Puzzlingly, Nokia will continue to sell the much heavier sibling, the 920 - but why would anyone want one" - the answer is because it has the best camera in any Smartphone other than the newer 92x handsets...

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Mushroom

Re: £37 a month?

The latest Kantar figures have shown this to be wrong - The Lumias - especially the 520 - are selling very well.

And Nokia already took back the lead in Finland from Samsung on the back of strong Lumia sales...

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FAIL

the answer is because it has the best camera in any Smartphone other than the newer 92x handsets...

If you think the Lumia 920 has the best smartphone camera then you obviously don't know the Nokia N8 or the Nokia Pureview 808.

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Anonymous Coward

Lumia 521

I picked up a Lumia 521 at Walmart the other week for $129.

It's branded T-Mobile, but I haven't bothered putting a SIM in it yet, I'm just using it on WiFi to play around with WP8. I'll probably try it with the $30/month unlimited Data plan at some point over the summer, so that I can test the Nokia Drive stuff (which can only be activated in a phone with a SIM).

It's not a bad little device for the price.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Nokia-Lumia-521-4G-Smartphone/24099994

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Tmobile-30-Wireless-Airtime-Card/15443357

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Linux

Are Windows phones still being outsold by Symbian?

No wonder the burning platform asshole wants to kill it off completely.

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Re: £37 a month?

We shall see soon enough. Nokia is not Microsoft and can't use the same tricks to bury bad news for quarters at a time. In fact Nokia is yet another Microsoft OEM that gets to eat the pain long before Microsoft ever will.

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Anonymous Coward

the answer is because it has the best camera in any Smartphone other than the newer 92x handsets...

I am familiar with those - they are good high resolution cameras - but are not as good as the newer Lumias which have OIS and an F2 lens....

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Re: £37 a month?

NO !!!!!

"8.4% UK market share" - It had 8.4% of SALES from March to April 2013, this is NOT the same as having 8.4% of the overall UK Smartphone market which your post suggests.

The latest figures from Gartner put WP Global Smartphone Market Share at 2.9%, the UK I would expect would be somewhere in or around that figure.

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Holmes

Re: £37 a month?

I was in Cambodia last week. The local had a great big Nokia sign in front picturing an "Asha Smartphone"

Personally, I think the Asha IS a Smartphone, despite its relatively primitive OS

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@Big Van Vader

"It had 8.4% of SALES from March to April 2013, this is NOT the same as having 8.4% of the overall UK Smartphone market which your post suggests."

Actually it is the same thing as he suggests. Market share is the share of the products sold in the market in a period, so rather than refute the assertion, you've just restated it. A "market" of anything implies sales, so devices that were sold last year are not part of this year's market.

The measure I think you mean is installed base, how many of the products are still in use. Over time, high market share contributes to high installed base, but it's not a straightforward integral of sales: products with a short useful life will drop out of installed base more quickly than those which provide longer service.

Despite its death-notice in 2011, it is still Symbian that's the third-most-used OS, and iOS only overtook it in late 2012. Android has been #1 since about 2011. A lot of those Symbian devices are very old, however, so don't contribute to the "app economy" which is the main reason why a rational person would even care about whose phone OS is most popular. By that measure, iOS had an early lead, Android has caught up, but not pulled away. Or in other words, one can prove any pet theory with statistics just by framing the query.

Anyway, these WP8 devices are at the higher end of the market, which implies a longer working life, so if MS/Nokia can keep this share up, they will have a viable userbase before too long. I think that's good. A monopoly or even a duopoly is bad for customers in the long run: it just breeds complacency.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: £37 a month?

but it 'feels expensive'

pity all they did was shove last years phone in a smaller case.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @Kristian Walsh

> A monopoly or even a duopoly is bad for customers in the long run: it just breeds complacency.

Must be why nobody wants a Microsoft phone.

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Re: £37 a month?

*boggle* It's only a smartphone if it runs Windows?

Yes, those figures may include low end devices like Asha, but these are full touch phones with Internet, apps etc - how are they not smart? They may be low end and low spec, but you could make the same argument about low end Android phones.

Apple got away with calling a phone a smartphone even when it *couldn't* run apps. If anything Nokia have been famously conservative about what they count, as most of their Internet/app phones are still not counted, when really all "feature" phones should have been counted as smartphones (there's no qualitative difference, it's just a marketing label). I don't understand why people are so keen to manipulate the stats to make Apple look better (counting 100% of their sales) and Nokia look worse.

The real point is that sales and profits are different things. 30 million is good going for sales, and Apple have mostly had poorer sales. Yet Apple will overcharge and more easily make more money, whilst Nokia devices are more likely to be lower cost lower profit ones. Personally as a user, not a shareholder, I care more about popularity than who makes the most money off of me.

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Re: Are Windows phones still being outsold by Symbian?

No, they're not, unless there's been some bizarre reversal in Q2 Symbian sales. So it does seem the right time to discontinue the sales altogether (whether it was right to end Symbian at all being a separate debate).

It is amazing that Symbian sales went on so well for so long, even after marketing, distribution, etc was almost all cut. Never mind mocking WP, I find it funny that it still took the iphone platform another six months to overtake it.

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Re: £37 a month?

The media has long used "market share" to mean sales rather than installed userbase. If we look at the latter, sure WP does worse, but then so would have iphone for years, and the global installed userbase of Symbian would still be massive, possibly still on par with the iphone platform.

Also I think the UK's WP market share (by sales) is higher than the global average, so presumably the installed userbase is likely to be too.

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Re: @Big Van Vader

I agree with your post, but:

"A lot of those Symbian devices are very old, however, so don't contribute to the "app economy" which is the main reason why a rational person would even care about whose phone OS is most popular."

Actually, even if we limit installed userbase to just phones in the last few years, one can get an estimate that still puts Symbian in 3rd place, only recently overtaken by iphone, and that's still a time period well in the timeframe when phones were shipped with Nokia Store, and support Qt etc, so well supported by Symbian application developers.

(From my own personal experience, the large installed userbase of Symbian, even with older phones like the 5XXX series, is partly why I see 50-100 times as many downloads on Symbian to Android.)

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You may need to check these comments again. I would put money on the 808 camera being the best available in a phone still today. This may change in the next few months though with the new GS4 and potentially the Nokia EOS coming to market.

The 920 camera is really good but I don't think its on the same level as the 808.

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Re: £37 a month?

@TheVogon - going to be sure to quote you when their next quarterlies come out or sooner if the guidance is issued.

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Happy

Re: the answer is because it has the best camera in any Smartphone other than the newer 92x

The best if you leave out the HTC One, the Galaxy S4, etc. Check the comparison between the S4, the One, the iPhone 5 and the 920 - http://connect.dpreview.com/post/9219904986/shootout-samsunggalaxys4-vs-htcone-vs-iphone5-vs-lumia920.

The only thing the 920 is slightly better at is flash photography, for all the rest the S4 is the all around best smartphone camera. Sorry to burst your bubble...

Of course, they left out the 808 and the N8, it would be interesting to see how these fare. I really like the 808 approach, and would by a Jolla or Android phone with that kind of camera.

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Again with the carrier exclusives? Didn't Nokia learn anything from limiting the supply to EE last time round with the 920?

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exclusive

I'm not sure who's being 'exclusive' - Nokia or the carriers.

The punters certainly are.

This is WinPho and the punters have spoken with their £££s: they don't want WinPho.

WP8 = WinPhail 8

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It's not the handset manufacturers who want the exclusives, the last thing they want is another SKU to worry about, it's the operators who need to find some way to differentiate the sale from just price.

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Vimes,

Surely a carrier exclusive on one colour is harmless enough? I don't think that many people really care if they get the black or white one. But I guess it makes some numpty at the network feel 'important' and that they've 'driven a hard bargained' with Nokia.

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@I ain't Spartacus

Except that it's storage that's different here - 32G in the exclusive as opposed to 16GB - not just the colour of the handset.

Personally if the phone is good enough then I couldn't give a crap about the colour.

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Re: @I ain't Spartacus

Yep, first thing I do is put I protective cover on it anyway, if I don’t like the base colour I don’t get a cover the same as it!

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FAIL

Re: exclusive - Sorry, the punters don't care

The issue with Windows phones is, and I know a lot of people on here don’t want to hear this, the rest of the phone, the majority of people who buy phones don’t give a flying fox what OS it’s got same as what processer is in it.

Can it ring people? Can it text? Use the Internet? Play Music? Does it have a (some people care - decent quality) Camera? Is it simple to use, does it look nice?

Most people buy phones the same way most people buy cars, in other words, can I afford it, does it work, what colour is it, and sometimes what badge has it got on the front, everything else is just stuff that makes it different from others.

In other words, to the majority of people -

This Car is a Ford, this is a Vauxhall

This Phone is a Samsung, this is a HTC

Is more important then

This car runs on diesel this one on petrol

This Phone is a Windows Phone, this is an Android.

Its down to the phone, and while iPhones are iPhones and Samsungs are Samsungs Nokia's last couple of phones have just been 'other phones'

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Anonymous Coward

one reason

one reason you'd want the 920 over the 925 is that it comes with builtin wireless charging, the 925 needs a clip on back plate

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Re: one reason

yep a silly move - the wireless charging is cool and it doesn't add too much bulk... there are Chinese add-on qi charger coils for the Galaxies which fit under the standard battery cover...

32GB as an exclusive? its not as if mediocre flash is expensive! im not sure how winpho8 deals with memory, but my 32GB 920 certainly doesn't have as much storage as my old 32GB iphone4... 16GB wouldn't last long at all - even with the tiny amount of apps for winpho8!

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Coat

Article's title needs correcting

It should be

Move on...Nothing to see here. Move on. Move on.

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Anonymous Coward

Obligatory

Nokia? I remember them, they used to make some pretty good handsets. Are they still around?

I'm going...

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Re: Obligatory

They still do make good handsets - this looks great and ticks all the boxes except for the OS.

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Re: Obligatory

The shame is that Nokia did make some damned good mobile phones. In fact they were so good I am still waiting for someone to come up with something to replace the one I am using. Nothing comes close to its usefulness. It's small, fits in an inside pocket has bluetooth and does what I need, which is more than the current dummy phone bricks can achieve. They are all show (why?) and no useful go, (why again?).

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Re: Obligatory @ Richard Jones

Let me guess? N8?

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FAIL

Re: Obligatory

"except for the OS."

How you insult me Microsoft and Nokia. You are like two old impotent farts sitting by the river trying to catch a fish without a bait. Damn you both. When Google plays Android not Linux, you think your slack and dead MS thingy name is worth something. Damn you both, for stupidity.

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Anonymous Coward

Squee

£34 a month on Vodafone...

Had mine since last night, all I can say is "squee", it's just beautiful and it is so pleasant to have moved away from iOS.

Still getting used to SmartCam, but it works like a dream. Only thing missing is Snapchat... *cough*

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Windows

Re: Squee

check out the 3rd party app called swapchat for what you are missing in the wp store, you will find that there are some really good 3rd party apps for many of the things people like to point out as missing e.g. for instagram too (instance)

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This post has been deleted by its author

Re: Squee

No, no and again no..

Sqee is for when your name is Rose and you get pashed on by Brad Pitt and Eric Bana in the space of 10 minutes...

In conclusion, they were cousins...

It is not, repeat not, to be used; in any description of a smartphone especially one of Elops finest..

I now have a message from group....

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Anonymous Coward

please no...

... not more of these "I'm a second rate celebrity who is so effing desperate for TV time that I'll whore myself out to anyone" adverts. ..

Or maybe I'm the only one who isn't influenced by "celebrity" endorsements

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(Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

Re: please no...

Not even Stephen Fry??

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Paris Hilton

Re: please no...

I used to think the way you do. But then I was persuaded that I was wrong by a piece written in crayonThe Guardian by Jordan...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: please no...

Especially not Stephen Fry.....

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Happy

Re: please no...

I go out oif my way to avoid any product that endorsed by a celeb ,star or sports personality and it seems there is a growing band of brothers doing the same.

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Looks good, sounds great but…

does it have Öffi, The Economist, Podcatcher, Fritz!Fon, etc. for it? (feel free to add to the list). No? Then I'm not interested, Mr Microsoft.

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Windows

Re: Looks good, sounds great but…

While I do not know for sure if these are the same ones you mention I took a second to look at what was available....

Podcatcher: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/podcatcher/5d5cebe9-420a-4566-a468-04c94aa34d93 (not sure if same but same name)

Fritz!Fon http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/fritzbox-calls/f8352e82-85b0-48c8-8103-7a745573c70b

(Fritz!Fon how popular is this really?? Real Question)

Öffi? Is this information for public transport? if so Nokia provides: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/here-transit/adfdad16-b54a-4ec3-b11e-66bd691be4e6 and there are others too.

The economist does not seem to be an available app however windows phone does have Zinio which I believe includes the economist and a ton of other publications: http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/zinio/236cc9f0-a250-4f1a-8f3a-b532d7a60b23

Do you have more apps that you are missing???

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