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back to article You've seen the Large Hadron Collider. Now comes the HUGE Hadron Collider

The scientific world is preparing for the arrival of a even larger Large Hadron Collider, after the publication of blueprints for a next generation proton-punisher. A five volume report containing the plans for the International Linear Collider has been handed over to the International Committee for Future Accelerators (ICFA) …

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Is that the best site?

"likely to be sited in Japan"

This thing is going to be huge, and need extremely accurate alignment. Isn't Japan rather too prone to earthquakes to be a suitable site for it?

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Happy

Re: Is that the best site?

True, but it's the only known location of the Godzilla Quark.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is that the best site?

Up from the depths

Thirty stories high

Breathing fire

His head in the sky

Collider

Collider

Collider

And Godzuki*

* (the new name for higgs boson)

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Re: Is that the best site?

Earthquakes were my first thought too. The second was, as I understand it, Japan's already a financial basket case, with a demographic time bomb on top of that like a fat toxic cherry.

If so I can't see how their offer to pay for half will mean anything in the medium to long term. Anyone here with any financial insight care to opine?

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Re: Is that the best site?

takes some "genius" to select a high seismic hazard area. just look up plate tectonics and relevant fault zones in japan.

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Mushroom

in the antiproton collector at CERN

with a stable beam in the PS, we could see the Mediterranean but mostly Atlantic tides slightly moving France on our beam diagnostics. And that was on the other side of the country, behind an Alp or two.

With linear colliders, they're rather less subtle than stochastically cooled circular ones - you generate a current, and launch/accelerate it in a straight line down an evacuated tube for a single 'bang', each run might well be different, whilst with synchrotron colliders like LHC you get to see nearly the same bunch of particles 27km/c =~ every 90 microseconds and can so prepare the beam 'density' a bit better?

I suppose I'll have to read the design report and see how it might be a good linear design? Last I heard it was hoped that the big interesting linear collider might go to DESY near Hamburg... are you still designing it Nick?

Oh & BTW , hadrons are multi-quark fuzzinesses - eg protons, pbars, neutrons, mesons, pions - not exactly e's and ebars - which are leptons, so might El'Reg be referring to the Huge Lepton Collider?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is that the best site?

Japan!, certainly not, far away, foreigners speaking a language only they understand, earthquakes and lack of power living on some small island. We should not be so decent but claim our right to build this device here, though not in Wales or Scotland, of course. And if those farmers in, was it Japan or something, insist of having the right to take part in the financing we should consider that too, and give them a fair chance. I will send my MP a letter right now.

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Re: Is that the best site?

Agreed, building a massive precision instrument like this right on the Ring of Fire is just plain asking for it. But we've sited all our electronics manufacturing in the same disaster area, so why not go the whole hog like the geniuses we are?

My personal preference to site something like this would be Siberia or the Australian outback. Somewhere there's no tectonic activity at all and the thing can sit nice and stably on top of a big fat granitic continental craton that isn't going anywhere.

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Power issues

Also Japan has a large shortfall of power (http://blogs.yis.ac.jp/duffieldj/2013/06/03/10c-japans-power-problem/). I can imagine the lights dimming as they power up ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Power issues

I know, if they could just power up a few nuclear power stations, ahhhh...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Power issues

This is a good idea for japan. Economically they are having problems yet have the technical ability. They also have a power issue and a lot of people who cant count (how many of the many died due to radiation- 0). How else do you insist that money needs to be spent on reliable power supplies. And with such a development in japan they could surely exploit that further and maybe revive their economy

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Energy levels

Linears are not really high-energy accelerators. Even when at full power, the ILC (from my googling) is only 1TeV, while the LHC is 7TeV. It does have the the advantage of being able to accelerate light particles, something at which (for reasons of Science) circular accelerators like the LHC totally suck.

So while the LHC continues bashing up heavy particles (the heavier, the better - there's a reason it uses whole ions), the ILC will be performing experiments upon an entirely different set of much lighter, more fundamental particles. They aren't duplicating work.

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Re: Energy levels

Thanks! I was wondering about the wisdom of embarking in another ultra-expensive physics project when the LHC isn't even running at full power yet. Your explanation sounds reasonable.

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Re: Energy levels

Given that most of the run time at the LHC is devoted to proton-proton collisions, I'm unsure about your "light particles" comment. Heavy ion runs at LHC, typically Pb, only got 1-2 months per year

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Trollface

Re: Energy levels

> It does have the the advantage of being able to accelerate light particles,

Surely "light particles" always travel at c in a vacuum?

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Happy

Re: Energy levels

"when the LHC isn't even running at full power yet". It will probably take 10 to 20 years to build a new one so there is a lot of time to use the LHC still. And this is all just speculations still.

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HHC?

Unlikely to be a hadron collider if it's smashing the pants out of electrons and positrons. More like a Huge Lepton Collider.

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Joke

Re: HHC?

I think Timmy Mallet named it best:

Itty bitty hitty splitty, Speedy uppy piece of kit-ty

That they build in the land of Japan

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Holmes

Re: HHC?

Absolutely Correct! El Reg has to review its "nucular nomenclature".

Also, at The Well-Informed Blog of Peter Woit, we read, back in August 2012:

For many years now discussion in the HEP community of what might be the appropriate next machine to try and finance and build after the LHC has centered around the idea of a linear electron-positron collider. The logic has been that an electron-positron machine would provide a much better environment that the LHC for detailed studies of physics at the TeV scale. At these energies, synchrotron radiation losses when accelerating electrons are so high in a circular geometry that such a machine would have to be a linear collider to keep the power needed something plausible. The two main proposals under study have been the ILC (250 GeV + 250 GeV, later upgradeable to 500 GeV + 500 GeV) and, a less mature technology, CLIC (1.5 TeV + 1.5 TeV). These would be very expensive machines to build and operate ($10 billion and up?), requiring completely new technology, tunnels and detectors.

But also:

This realization is driving a new proposal that is getting a lot of attention: the idea of going back to circular electron-positron colliders, building a new machine in the LHC tunnel, optimized as a Higgs factory, and designed to operate at 120 GeV + 120 GeV. This is being called “LEP3″, since it would be in many ways similar to LEP2, the predecessor machine to the LHC, which operated in the same tunnel, reaching an energy of 209 GeV. There would be huge cost advantages to building such a machine over the ILC or CLIC, since it can use the LHC tunnel, infrastructure, and, crucially, the CMS and ATLAS detectors (the detectors are a large part of the cost of a new accelerator).

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Holmes

Re: HHC?

Plus, I have heard that Muon Factories to generate copious amounts of high-energy Neutrinos (so copious and high-energy that they actually pose a radiation hazard downrange of the collider) would be of mucho interest in studying neutrino physics, where quite a lot of questions are open and parameters are floating around. But the technology ain't even on the paper yet.

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Happy

ICFA

I imagine getting invited to join the International Committee on Future Accelerators must be cool. In my mind they show up in a hypersonic hover car and whisk you away to a private volcano lair staffed by monkey butlers for your initiation party.

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meanwhile in the texas desert

15 miles of special built tunnel are lying vacant.

let's go to see the supercollider

Not sure I understand why making a brand new installation is better than reviving the SSC.

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Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

That's like being Rick Rolled, but much more interesting and relevant.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

Unfortunately, with the continuing dain-bramage our government keeps executing, there are a lot of foreign scientists that would NOT want to come to the US to work on the SSC. Yet another way our government's stupidity hurts the US.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

"there are a lot of foreign scientists that would NOT want to come to the US"

Well, yes, that's because they call foreigners aliens. What are they going to call real aliens?

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Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

Because the one in Texas is full of water. They filled it to prevent trespassing/mole people villages and the water has rendered the structure unsound.

It's also in Texas.

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Meh

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

That's a bit like upgrading from a Bentley to a Bugatti, when you know that what you really need is a supersonic jet. Not a big enough advance to be worth paying that much for. The LHC is the biggest ring we'll build in any forseeable future.

Linear accelerators are the most obvious way we might get a really big advance. In outline ... an electric field of a million volts per meter, over ten kilometers, is 10GV. Subject a proton to that and because it's ~2000 times more massy than an electron, that's ~20TeV. Now work on higher field strengths ... none of this is impossible, it's just unknown territory in engineering terms.

For a rather further-fetched idea, look up PASER (and consider where we are today, starting from some theoretical 1930s papers on the field effect ... with a big detour via germanium junction transistors).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

The 15 miles are worth nothing, you need a new much longer tunnel and I would suggest you spent that money rather on education to understand how to spell tunnel and similar difficult words.

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Boffin

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

"The LHC is the biggest ring we'll build in any forseeable future"

Except the LHC had the huge advantage of having the ring already constructed in the 80's. It was originally built for the Large Electron-Positron Collider :-)

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Oh yes, the SSC

It would have been awesome. But politics killed it by lack of funding, and IIRC parts of it have been even sold out. It's currently one of the largest abandoned constructions of the modern world.

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Mushroom

Re: meanwhile in the texas desert @ac

I don't think my post had any typos, or are you just ragging on Yanks generally? You might want to seek some further education yourself, creating a false dichotomy between basic education and advanced research, as if those were the only two aspects of our society that relied on government funding. Personally, I'd rather see cuts start with the military and intelligence departments, but even that's a pretty sweeping generalization.

At any rate, I have a theory (well, actually, a baseless conjecture) about why big physics projects are vitally important to the future of humanity: they are there to keep the physicists safely entertained and distracted. We all remember what happened the last time the greatest physicists on the planet all got together and worked on something with concrete real-world consequences.

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Re: meanwhile in the texas desert

Mainly because the tunnels have been sold off and are used for data storage (amongst other things)

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More bad editorializing: there is no "God Particle" and nobody is looking for it. And please stop this nonsense about "tearing a hole in the space time continuum" !

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Paris Hilton

How about "puncturing the cloud", then?

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What about being turned into quantum custard or superstring soup?

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"More bad editorializing"

says the man who uses the word 'editorializing' without seeming to know what it means

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WTF?

Why not? It's no different to the everyday usage of "nuke it"!

Doesn't everyone know about natural cosmic rays up to10^19 eV, and the number of them that have interacted with the sun in the last 4 billion years? (Hint: the sun is BIG). If really high energy particles had any untoward effects on large collections of matter, we wouldn't be here to talk about it. (Or the fun alternative, maybe they once DID have dramatic effects on the pre-universe, and that's WHY we're here talking about it! )

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@frank ly

So, on top of Godzilla, the poor Japanese will now have to contend with the legendary Soup Dragon.

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Anonymous Coward

"no "God Particle"", silly, of course there are some, but God never lost any so it is silly to look for them. "Tearing holes..." is not nice either. But this is all right for a Cynic like you or does that apply only to HP.

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Anonymous Coward

They should name it after Hugh Jardon.

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Earthquakes

I'm sure these boffins have already thought of this, but is it wise to dig a huge tunnel and site a massively expensive piece of scientific kit in a country prone to earthquakes?

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Paris Hilton

Re: Earthquakes

Well, there already are at least the Kamikande Neutrino Observatory. And then you have complete Boiling Water Reactors and actual towns sited in that country.

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Re: Earthquakes

The difference is that they're relatively small and rigid structures that can survive the gradual distortion of the ground they are built on bt anything less than a truly huge earthquake. Whereas a LINAC 10km long that has to be dead straight might end up bent out of alignment, which would ruin it.

A picture from California is worth a thousand words

http://www.und.edu/instruct/mineral/101intro/slides/faults/slide19.htm

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Mis-alignment

By the way, the control codes at CERN really DO have to include a calculation of the phase of the moon. The earth suffers elastic tidal distortion, enough to change the alignment of the LHC to a significant extent.

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Missing the most important piece of information...

How big is it? In elephants or whatever the length unit of the day is.

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Anonymous Coward

They should call it...

... the Hardon.

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Coat

Re: They should call it...

No, there'd be too much uncertainty about size and position.

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If you want to bash Positrons & Electrons...

...They have one of those ring shaped things over at SLAC (it is at the end of the two mile long slingshot). I even visited it. Granted, it is a few (40 years) old, but it did produce some good science (and may still, I haven't kept up). Yes, it is a ring about 100 feet in diameter ("small" by today's standards) but just put some bigger coils and pump up the volume, and you could be good to go.

And Yes, they DID discover particles there.

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Unhappy

Re: If you want to bash Positrons & Electrons...

Doesn't work. The trouble is that charged particles emit electromagnetic radiation when you change the direction they are moving. The higher the energy of the particles and the tighter the bend, the more they do it. You reach a limit where it's not feasible to pump in energy any faster than the particles are shedding it, and the only way around that is a bigger ring (or ideally a straight line for zero losses, which is where this discussion started).

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