back to article MYSTERY Nokia Lumia with gazillion-pixel camera 'spotted'

Nokia will plug the boffinry behind the 41-megapixel camera in its 808 PureView phone into a new Lumia smartmobe, it is rumoured. The technology involves a gigantic sensor capable of taking gazillion-pixel photographs and clever software to refine the image into a sharp 3MP, 5MP or 8MP shot. The results can match the output of …

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  1. Mystic Megabyte
    Windows

    NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

    No.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      Good to see you're open minded about new things.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

        "Good to see you're open minded about new things"

        Don't be silly, there are a gazillion new things that you might try every week. Triage.

      2. Lee D Silver badge

        Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

        All new things should be taken with a pinch of salt based on the people who are trying to sell them to you.

        Would you try a "new" pie from the guy who was convicted of sneezing into his baked goods?

      3. Steve Knox
        WTF?

        Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

        Let's try this again.

        This is not a new thing; it's a rumor about a new thing -- a rumor about a new hardware component which isn't even the point of contention for people who don't wish to try Windows Phone 8.

        So why would this make someone try Windows Phone 8 NOW?

    2. asdf
      Trollface

      Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      Wow Nokia hardware is such a waste on Windows Phone 8. I know for the camera alone if they come out with an Android version it would be the missus next phone.

    3. Euripides Pants
      Joke

      Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      I will not try it here or there.

      I will not try it anywhere.

      I do not like it Sam I Am.

      I do not like this Windows Spam.

      Couldn't resist - too much Doctor Seuss in my formative years...

    4. N13L5
      Pint

      Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      M$ must have Nokia in some nasty exclusivity contract for Windphone making.

      That's gotta be the only reason the board hasn't removed the sloppy Microsoft mole from his corner office.

  2. Gordon Pryra

    NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

    No

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

    No, as no amount of hardware can make up for a crap operating system.

    Nokia need to disappear into a room and come out when they have got rid of Elop and have a Android product for sale. Until then, nobody cares.

    1. ukgnome

      Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      no amount of hardware can make up for a crap operating system.

      You have probably never seen a lumia, let alone used one. If you had then you would understand why it deserves to be the No1 smartphone on the market.

      Android is a mixed bag, too many handsets and too many versions of OS

      iPhone has stagnated and failed to innovate

      Win 8 \ Lumia is a robust, fast, almost sexy phone that has power (sadly lacking in some apps)

      I'm an android user, but as soon as my old phone gives up the ghost I will invest in a mid-range lumia!

      1. Jess

        I will invest in a mid-range lumia!

        Because you really do want to buy a phone from a company with a history of dropping operating systems like hot potatoes, which has a an operating system from a company with past form for dropping operating system and replacing them with incompatible systems.

    2. Beau
      Happy

      Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      But they already have disappeared into a room, and come out with phone, well some of them have.

      It's a Jolla phone with an OS known as Sailfish!

    3. John 120

      Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      Would be curious to know exactly what aspect you think is crap. Have you even used it as a primary phone for longer then it takes to fondle it on a display stand in the shop? I find it far quicker and easier then Android\iOS.

    4. Aoyagi Aichou

      Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      They do need to hang Elop and burn any agreements with MS, but they also need to come up with their own OS, preferably restarting the Meego/Harmattan project. I personally am not interested in yet another Android clone, especially not when Google starts getting heavily involved.

      @ukgnome

      WP8 has not only failed to innovate, it took massive steps backwards from WM6. It seems fast because of long pretty-looking animations. What has the "power" is the hardware, not the OS. WP8 deserves what it gets.

      1. Neil B
        WTF?

        Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

        @Aoyagi Aichou

        In a world drowning under iOS and its Android clones, it just boggles my mind that MS can be accused of not innovating with WP7/8.

      2. JC_

        @Aoyagi Aichou

        WP8 has not only failed to innovate, it took massive steps backwards from WM6. It seems fast because of long pretty-looking animations. What has the "power" is the hardware, not the OS. WP8 deserves what it gets.

        If it seems fast to the user then it is fast. What other criteria is more important than having a happy user?

        Counting cores and claiming a phone is better is pointless willy waving.

        1. Aoyagi Aichou
          IT Angle

          Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

          @Neil B

          Microsoft took the approach of locking everything down, pretty looking and "app" centric, cloudy and other thing that Apple has been doing as well. The only innovation I've heard about concerning Lumias is the mechanical moving lens, but that's hardly Microsoft's work.

          @JC_

          I can also make a car look fast (for some people anyway) by adding stripes, flames and other nonsense. Or taking a picture of the car and blurring background and car's wheels. But neither of that makes the car actually fast. Claiming that it is fast would be a lie. So even though users are happy with nice animations and the device feels fast for them, it doesn't mean that the device actually is fast. Ergo they are lying.

          As for the power, I of course meant it figuratively, not that the phone on itself has outstanding performance.

          1. JC_

            Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

            Aoyagi, I don't think you understand: if the phone provides "nice animations" while doing something, then it is being responsive, not "lying" to you.

            Lag and stuttering are signs of a defective OS, not a feature.

            1. Aoyagi Aichou

              Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

              Well, the OS isn't lying, its fans are. It's exactly like that in games - they use elevators, airlocks and other small areas as transitions so that they can "seamlessly" load the next section, but that doesn't mean the game has efficient loading algorithms. It only means that you have something to look at while it loads on the background. If they made the animation three times as long, it would still look pretty and they would have enough time to "seamlessly" load HERE City Lens, for example.That doesn't make OS fast. It makes it "pretty", "feeling responsive", "fluid" and so on. Not fast. From what I have seen (and I have very limited experiences with that), iOS seems faster. If it was designed to be fast, I would be able (for example) to close IE and get into photos from the last month under a second. That's currently impossible, because the animations take up more than half of the time. God damn it, the phone has 1GB of RAM, why the hell is it so slow? 1GB of RAM is enough for Windows 7, so why do I have to suffer these annoyingly lengthy animations?

              Oh, and WP8 lags/stutters as well, don't think it doesn't (even when everything that can be turned off is turned off). Though I would hardly consider certain degree of lags as a sign of defective OS, that doesn't make any sense.

              I'll have to stop here, I don't want this to get derailed too much :/

  4. Shagbag

    "Our professional photographer's review of the tech"

    "The camera and the PureView technology are very attractive but the Belle OS puts me off making such an investment."

    Now substitue 'WinPho OS' for 'Belle OS' and you get the same response from El Reg readers.

    1. Jess

      the Belle OS puts me off making such an investment

      But the plug was already pulled on Symbian at that point.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Interested

    I'm interested in new developments with camera irrespective of operating systems so looking forward to seeing where Nokia can take the next version of PureView. If its good I'll consider buying one but lets see first.

    What a halo of negativity reading these posts to start the day. I feel sorry for this bunch of goons whose hatred of Microsoft makes them blind to looking at potentially interesting technology. Every bloody day after day.

  6. jungle_jim
    Happy

    The best camera

    Is the one you have, surely?

    I almost always have my phone, but rarely my DSLR

    1. Dave 126

      Re: The best camera

      I've not yet considered getting a DSLR for just that very reason... it's a bit of lump to carry around, and not something I would always want to leave in an unattended vehicle- in short, I wouldn't get enough use out of it to justify its cost.

      I do have a 'premium compact', a Lumix LX-5 that fits in a jacket pocket, and is with me enough of the time to capture interesting shots I stumble across, and in most conditions.

      However, even this I don't have with me as often as I do my phone.

    2. Mark Jan
      Thumb Up

      Re: The best camera

      I have the 808 Pureview and it's a great phone and camera.

      As the article said, I'm amazed at the regular software updates the phone gets.

      For example only yesterday it received 6 such updates.

      There have been some issues on it appears certain networks / 3G at certain times. I've experienced such issues but only on Vodafone, not for example T-Mobile. Could be that the frequency of the networks are an issue. However, yesterday's updates (one of which was for 3G) have apparently sorted it. In those areas where I previously had a non-existent signal strength, today I have 4 bars!

      Considering Symbian is supposed to be defunct I'm amazed that so much time and energy is being devoted to it. Well done Nokia or should I say Accenture!

      It's a shame that the world leading tech that Nokia had / has in imaging is still showcased in a phone that's a year old and in an OS that is supposed to be inferior to what they have now!

      1. triceratops triceps

        Re: The best camera

        is Nokia maps still being updated? really tempted to get the 808 because of the camera plus my c5-03's maps aren't supported any longer.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The best camera

      I carry a Canon Ixus 500HS all the time, it's small and photographically it will completely trash anything that a phone manufacturer can squeeze into a phone. Quite frankly, a pixel counting pissing contest is a complete waste of time. If your grand ambition is photos of your drunk friends spewing up over each other, or a sneaky shot of your friend's genitalia to embarrass them with on Facebook a phone's fine, else get a camera!

    4. Michael Wojcik Silver badge

      Re: The best camera

      The best camera

      Is the one you have, surely?

      Yes, but for many people, the snapshot-quality camera on their phone is already good enough. I can't see why I'd ever purchase a phone simply because it had a better camera. That's so far down my list of needs that it doesn't even register.

      So no, Andrew, Nokia's magic camera won't make me try WinPho 8. It wouldn't make me try any other phone OS, either.

  7. phr0g
    Thumb Up

    I'm in.

    Definitely interested. I like WP8 and I want a decent camera that can mean I don't carry a compact all the time. I almost bought the 808 despite the crappy OS and screen.

    1. Aoyagi Aichou

      Re: I'm in.

      You mean the OS which, despite being nearly dead, is still better (more open) than WP8 in most aspects?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: I'm in. @Aoyagi Aichou

        More open does not *automatically* mean better. Or even more suitable. You just pulled an Eadon!

        1. Aoyagi Aichou

          Re: I'm in. @Aoyagi Aichou

          Well, naturally doesn't automatically mean better, but something closed so tightly that I can't even grab files from email and download them to (or access them from) PC or that I can't download any file of any type and any size or install something without the all-seeing Store's consent... that's pretty bad in my book. There also should be "and more open". I don't know where did the "and" go, I specifically instructed it to stay put. There are of course other aspects in which Symbian/Belle is better. I'm mostly ignoring Eadon (no offense, he does have good points at times, it's often buried under a pile of Linux (or whatever) fanboism), but if you get the feeling that I'm like him, please tell me or also ignore me ^^

    2. mhoulden

      Re: I'm in.

      Personally I'd be seriously interested to see what they could do if they made the Nokia N8 available with Android, and a bit of a memory and CPU upgrade. Symbian isn't bad but I upgraded from an N8 to a Samsung Galaxy SIII because the app support just wasn't there. Apart from the lack of NFC, the hardware on the N8 is still more advanced than a lot of other phones. Imagine if Androids had a built in FM radio and a separate charging socket as well as the micro USB port

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Lens

    Is the lens up to this level of detail? My Samsung SIII mini has a nice sensor on paper but the lens is utter shit so the images only look good on the screen. Printed out or displayed at any sensible size and there's just no detail.

    1. Martin Gregorie

      Re: Lens

      "Is the lens up to this level of detail?" is exactly the right question to ask.

      The short answer is that boosting the megapixel count behind a crap lens is pure ad-hype, even if its true, and does nothing whatsoever for picture quality. Here's an example: I have both a DSLR and a snapper, both made by Pentax, so direct comparison is a fair test.

      The DSLR is a K100 with a 6MP 24x16mm sensor and uses good quality lenses - I use both the standard f5.6 35-100mm 35mm equivalent kit lens and the M-series lenses off my old Spotmatic F.

      The snapper is an Optio WG-1 with a 14MP 1/2.3" sensor and the usual unspecified small, plastic lens found in this class of camera. The WG-1 has the lens and sensor entirely inside its body behind a waterproof pane of glass, so it makes a good comparison with a mobile phone camera.

      Shooting the same subject at the same distance with both cameras (using the kit lens on the K100) clearly shows that the K100 has about three times the resolution of the WG-1, i.e. zoom right in on the image and compare sharpness: the D100 image is very obviously sharper. This shows that lens quality and sensor size are all that matters and pixel count is utterly irrelevant given the diffraction effects that limit resolution when lens and sensor are shrunk to the size needed to put them inside a 25mm thick body. Since no mobe is anything like that thick, it follows that their camera resolutions will be even worse.

      1. Dave 126

        Re: Lens

        >"Is the lens up to this level of detail?" is exactly the right question to ask.

        It is a good question to ask, but it seems by looking at two unrelated cameras from Pentax you took a strange approach to answering it. Generally speaking, 'prime lenses' - those of fixed zoom - are sharper than zoom lenses. If you want to be more empirical about it, have a look at:

        http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8083837371/review-nokia-808-pureview/5

        "At its maximum resolution of 38MP the 808 is capable of capturing a ton of detail, and pixel-level image quality is up there with some of the best cameras around. In its 8MP PureView mode pixel-level image quality is extremely high at low ISO settings, and even up at its highest ISOs, the 808 gives a lot of 'proper' cameras a run for their money. " This is a photography review site that is fond of studio comparison shots under controlled conditions. There is no criticism in the review of the sharpness of the 808's prime lens.

      2. qwarty

        Re: Lens

        Not to disagree with the value of good lenses Martin but its all a more complex topic than you suggest. Time to focus, depth of field, length of exposure all go into making a good shot. Zoom speed. Continuous shots/second. DSLR video.

        If you have time to adjust settings, good conditions and a simple goal such as shooting a posed portrait shot, a DSLR is an excellent tool. Likewise standard landscapes. Less so e.g. in sports photography or casual snapping.

        Furthermore by embedding the camera in a fully programmable device like a phone, we are no longer tied to imaging and interface the camera manufacturer decided on, we can write our own software or buy apps. Wish I could do that with my DSLR.

        High resolution sensors and fast image acquisition change the rules of the game and open up interesting opportunities in processing the raw data stream even though end of the day we are happy with a 6MP image. For instance, in some situations, an effective way to avoid the need to mechanically zoom a lens. Key point is new camera technology is not just about shrinking the traditional optics and sensor to ape traditional cameras.

        I think Nokia are being clear that they are using the technology to improve camera flexibility, not selling the idea of shooting 41MP images like the old silly ad-hype for cameras.

    2. N2
      Pint

      Re: Lens

      I completely agree with you & Martin, it is simply not possible to accurately render onto 20Mp through a small lens. It is costly & impractical to provide a large lens on a phone, I much prefer a well rendered image from a 4Mp camera than otherwise.

      Its composition & lighting which makes for a good picture.

    3. Tom 35

      Re: Lens

      They put the big fat lens on an SLR just to look cool.... right.

      You might get... the results can match the output of a pocket camera, maybe even one of the better ones.

      I'm sure this camera is way better then the one in my Nexus 4. I'd have paid a bit more for a better camera, but I would not go for Winphone just to get a better camera. Just like I would not buy a Lada, just because it came with a great stereo.

  9. Michael H.F. Wilkinson Silver badge
    Boffin

    Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

    Cramming 41Mpixel into such a small format is apparently possible, but only by making the photosites tiny. This means the electron well can only hold comparatively few electrons before saturating. This in turn means that the number of photons detected before saturation is low, which means increased noise and lower dynamic range. By binning multiple photosites together into a much smaller number of pixels, you can counteract this, and no doubt produce some very nifty 8MP images (especially with good processing techniques).

    However, this will never match the quality of a DLSR, simply because the much bigger lens of a DLSR gathers more photons, which means better signal to noise. The reason is that quantum efficiencies (percentage of photons detected) of photosites are very high indeed (40% and above) so little can be gained there (and every gain at the phone end can be made equally at the DSLR end). A DSLR lens easily has 4x the diameter of that of a camera phone, meaning it gets 16x the number of photons. A phone sensor would need to collect 800% of all photons (which is clearly impossible) to match a DSLR sensor with 50% quantum efficiency.

    So, will these cameras produce nice images, good enough for most purposes? Even when deducting marketing speak: yes. Will they match professional DSLR kit: No; this little thing called physics gets in the way. On the other hand, do I carry a phone with me all day? Certainly. Do I carry several kilogrammes of DSLR kit around all the time? No way!

    1. qwarty

      Re: Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

      However there are a lot of other factors. Effectiveness in various lighting conditions. Supersampling at high frame rates. Using a wider angle lens with software undistorting for physically larger sensor in small space and wider range of shooting options. Dual/multiple lenses. Expansion lens systems for cameras.

      Not arguing with you, in principle DSLR large lenses and sensors could always do better in situations where DSLR works. The point is that the number of use cases is continually declining.

      I can quite imagine within a few years a good camera phone with one or two exchangeable backpanels with enhanced lens systems etc. will be sufficient to replace 95% of the DSLR market.

      1. Shagbag

        Re: Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

        WTF?

    2. Dave 126

      Re: Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

      @Michael H.F. Wilkinson

      What you say is true. However, the 808 concept is simpler than that - people tend to use 'zoom' for pictures of landmarks and wildlife during the day when light is good and noise isn't really an issue (so the 808 takes a crop of the image, 1:1 pixels). People want low light capability in social situations, often indoors, often at night, when the zoom isn't required (interpolate several pixels to create less noisy image).

      Whilst it is good to think about the theory, it is good to balance that against looking at the results:

      "Will they match professional DSLR kit: No; this little thing called physics gets in the way." - Theory

      "Pixel-level detail is high at low ISO settings and acceptable even at ISO 1600 for non-critical applications. In terms of sharpness and detail, the 808 is more than a match at low ISO settings for most compact cameras (and some DSLRs) -http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8083837371/review-nokia-808-pureview/5 Results of controlled testing.

    3. Nick Ryan Silver badge

      Re: Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

      The comparison of the outside lens area and therefore the difference in maximum photon collection is all valid. However it's the poor efficiency of the lenses, and the poor efficiency of the sensors that are the biggest problem. A larger collecting (outside) lens will help and if the quality of the lens and the sensors are the same, then it will obviously be better. However there's much more to it than that...

      If the sensor is twice as wide and high in one camera (quadrupling the available area) then the lens does not need to focus the light as tightly, allowing better image detail as there is inherently more accuracy through improved tolerances.

      The sensors are also inefficient as in current devices as a large proportion of the incoming light is lost as it hits support circuitry and gaps between sensors and sensor groups rather than hitting the sensors. Improvements to the sensor orientation (vertical stacked circuitry) and other techniques are coming but don't appear to have made it to market yet. I can't remember the exact figures but right now it's something along the lines of 80% of incoming photons do not hit a sensor. Better collection results in a wider sampling range and therefore more accuracy across the scale.

      1. Rampant Spaniel

        Re: Let's talk photon counts and well sizes

        True but for a given depth of field you need to increase the f stop for a larger sensor which in turn requires more light, assuming pixel density remains constant between sensors. However the required shutterspeed for handholding is an issue with larger sensors as a longer focal length is required to maintain the same fov. It's a giant balancing act. F2.8 of my 6x7 medium format is razor thin, a 110 f2.8 is similar to a 55 1.4 in 35mm terms. Large format gets much dafter. So with tiny sensors like this an f1.2 to f2.0 lens is pretty 'slow' given the relative pixel size and won't give shallow dof.

  10. The New Turtle
    Unhappy

    I was very tempted by the 808 back at the beginning of the year when I replaced my phone. What killed it for me was the poor screen res and sheer bulk of the thing - a smartphone is more than just a camera that can be used to make calls. The new top-end Nokias are too bulky and too expensive to compete (interesting at £320, not at £520) again regardless of how good the camera might be.

  11. dzasterus
    Thumb Up

    NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

    already have and to be honest its a thousand times better than IOS

    1. Philippe
      Thumb Down

      Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

      You really have low requirements or low standards.

      I wouldn't call a thousand times better something which hasn't got a centralised way of managing notifications or a proper BBC iPlayer app in the Application store (store, market, shop, whatever.)

      1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

        Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

        To be 1,000 times better than iOS it would need to make me tea and a bacon sandwich on request, bring my slippers and paper to my armchair, and get those damned kids off my lawn.

        Actually that's probably only 100 times better. So I guess we're talking bringing me smoked salmon and vintage champagne on request, with beef and claret to follow, then fruitcake and sauternes, cheese and port and whisky to follow.

        I could be perfectly happy with iOS, Android, WinPho or Blackberry phones at the moment. Each would annoy me with something they can't do, but would have some advantage over the other OSes to make up for it.

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