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back to article MYSTERY Nokia Lumia with gazillion-pixel camera 'spotted'

Nokia will plug the boffinry behind the 41-megapixel camera in its 808 PureView phone into a new Lumia smartmobe, it is rumoured. The technology involves a gigantic sensor capable of taking gazillion-pixel photographs and clever software to refine the image into a sharp 3MP, 5MP or 8MP shot. The results can match the output of …

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Windows

NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

No.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Good to see you're open minded about new things.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

"Good to see you're open minded about new things"

Don't be silly, there are a gazillion new things that you might try every week. Triage.

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Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

All new things should be taken with a pinch of salt based on the people who are trying to sell them to you.

Would you try a "new" pie from the guy who was convicted of sneezing into his baked goods?

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WTF?

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Let's try this again.

This is not a new thing; it's a rumor about a new thing -- a rumor about a new hardware component which isn't even the point of contention for people who don't wish to try Windows Phone 8.

So why would this make someone try Windows Phone 8 NOW?

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Trollface

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Wow Nokia hardware is such a waste on Windows Phone 8. I know for the camera alone if they come out with an Android version it would be the missus next phone.

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Joke

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

I will not try it here or there.

I will not try it anywhere.

I do not like it Sam I Am.

I do not like this Windows Spam.

Couldn't resist - too much Doctor Seuss in my formative years...

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Pint

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

M$ must have Nokia in some nasty exclusivity contract for Windphone making.

That's gotta be the only reason the board hasn't removed the sloppy Microsoft mole from his corner office.

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NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

No

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

Some phone camera are already better than the cheapest dedicated. The human eye has small lenses and short focal length. Insects have different visual systems. Always is a long time Eadon. Or have voices from the future told you this is so.

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FAIL

Nokia were faking their demo camera shots in their ads

Yeah, they lost a lot of street cred with that.

I've already tried WinPho and I won't be getting this Nokia.

ANOTHER case of sexy hardware being saddle-bagged with an OS that no-one really wants.

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FAIL

Pay attention at the back...

That product shot is not a Lumia, it's the old Pureview.

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FAIL

Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

Oh Eadon,

Time to use your favourite fail icon, because your comment fails on so many levels.

Once again the Nokia PR guys show a Lumia without showing the Win 8 i/face

Now let's correct your comment:

Once again the Register sub-editors show a Pureview 808 without showing the Symbian i/face.

Oops! So just like the last time you used this comment, it wasn't Nokia's PR flacks who picked the piccies, it was the Register. Unless you're accusing El Reg of taking Nokia's cash to only show the pictures they want shown. And then for extra comedy gold, you failed to notice the that picture shown was an illustration of the size of the camera on the Pureview - as explained in both the text of the article and the caption of the photo.

Perhaps you could try engaging brain before keyboard once in a while?

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FAIL

Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

Eadon, you do realise that if you visit Nokia's website you can see a plethora of phones proudly displaying their Windows UI? I am betting you dont, so here is a handy link for you: http://www.nokia.com/gb-en/.

Here is another great link, showing all the Nokia handsets (more or less) http://www.nokia.com/gb-en/phones/all/

Seems to me that each of them are displaying the UI that you hate so much, as well as the Windows 8 button.

I am going to assume Nokia only did this in the last 10 minutes or so, just to enrage you.

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Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

>A phone camera will always be inferior to any dedicated camera, even a cheap portable one.

Eadon fails to look at any comparisons between the 808 Pureview and 'premium' compacts such as the Lumix LX-5 or Olympus PEN. I don't know why - I'm pretty sure using Linux isn't a barrier to using Google... 'pureview 808 lx 5' for example. All of the reviews, tests, and side by side comparisons come to much the same conclusion.

In some situations, especially low light, the 808 captured more detail, and generally holds its own. This is impressive, given that the LX-5 when released was a better low-light performer than most compacts, with a 1/1.6 sensor and an f.2 lens.

To really put the boot in, almost all compact cameras use a propriety OS, shock horror - though I've heard good things of CHKD, a temporay firmware for many Canon compacts that allows all manner of scripts. http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK

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Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

"Some phone camera are already better than the cheapest dedicated."

Sorry. Wrong. Some phone CCD imaging components may be technically superior in, say, megapixels or other areas. But to say they are automatically surpassing to even the cheapest camera with proper moving optics is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, you can get some impressive and high res images but the fact is that the focal length just isn't there for anything but "people standing arm's length away" (ideal for a phone-photo of your friends, poor for anything else).

And it doesn't really matter what clever tricks you play, you need the focal length which is a physical light path length. Hell, it's about the only photo application where you can (and do) get away with fixed focus.

For a quick snapshot, yeah, a phone will do an amazing job given it's cost, size, secondary function, etc. To say it beats a camera with any kind of moving optics is really pushing it. I'm not a camera nut, it's taken me about six months to learn how to apply focal lengths, etc. for astrophotography from, basically, zero knowledge and the only camera I own - well, I don't, it's my girlfriend's.

But there's a world of difference between webcam/phonecam fixed-focus, limited use, flash-backed images in good light versus what even the most basic camera with "optical zoom" can do. Hell, the fact that people still compare megapixels is quite hilarious, it's like judging a car by how many revs it can do (by which standard, my dad's go-kart will beat a Ferrari). You can take unbelievable images of nebulae with a CCD that's barely a couple of megapixels, but would struggle to reproduce with even the most expensive of SLR cameras with hacking them apart.

There's more to a camera than megapixels. A lot more. What kind of ISO speeds does it offer? That's VERY telling, even some of the most expensive SLR's barely hit 1200 and some can go to ridiculous impossible-with-film ISO sensitivity. What focal lengths can it manage? What optics is it using (even the designer name of the lens doesn't mean much if it's cheap junk)? There are a million and one questions.

The person who judges a digital camera by the megapixel is someone who doesn't take a lot of photographs outside of "happy snaps". I don't either. But I know there's a whole lot more to it than just how many dots you get into your image (which you then display on a 72dpi screen or take to ASDA and get printed at 150dpi anyway).

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Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

@Lee D

You might have missed the point- it is not being judged on the number of mega-pixels it has, but on the results it produces. Rather than give us a lot of theory, isn't is easier for you to look at the DPreview review of the 808- after all, it contains lots of test shots, many of them under their controlled studio conditions. They use the same conditions for each camera (DSLR, compact, whatever) they review, so that comparisons are fair and standard.

True, you are never going to get fine user control over your pictures with this thing, but that isn't he point of this device.

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Boffin

Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

I think you are confusing moving optics (zoom?) and fixed focus.

Fixed focal length is a very differentent thing to fixed focus. No high end phone camera is fixed focus as far as I'm aware, that would be twatty. Probably best we leave hyperfocal distance for another day though. Feet are essentially your zoom with a fixed length lens.

The inherent quality of the glass/plastic the sensor/film is looking through is where you get bang for buck. Certainly makes a bigger difference to images than any of the other technical points mentioned. Who is that Zeiss fellow anyway..

That aside, if EOS is a combination of pureview 1&2 then I'm going to happily put up with WP.

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Re: Whatever you do, don't show the Win 8 scrreen!

But to say they are automatically surpassing to even the cheapest camera with proper moving optics is a bit of a misnomer.

"The cheapest camera with proper moving optics" is rather different from "the cheapest dedicated [camera]". You're not arguing the point in contention. Eadon claimed that phone cameras are always inferior to all dedicated cameras; that's definitely false, even if we only include digital cameras. (It's trivially false if we allow film cameras. The pinhole camera exposing Kodak 110 film that I made as a lad was significantly inferior even to the camera on my cheap Symbian S60 phone.)

Also, "misnomer" does not conventionally mean what you appear to be using it for here.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Eadon, have you signed a living will to state no resuscitation by equipment that uses Microsoft software?

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Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

With the amount of utter bollocks you post about it Eadon, we all knew that already.

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Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Dear Register boffins,

Would you please create an optional filter that hides all posts that include the word 'Eadon' in the text.

Thanks

P.D. Maybe I shouldn't throw the first stone but this is getting completely out of hand.

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Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

If your life depends on equipment powered by MS software you probably already died at the last BSOD, unfortunately the hardware couldn't sound the emergency buzzer because it was waiting for windows to finish its memory dump and reboot.

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resuscitation by equipment that uses Microsoft software?

That is a scary thought.

Do they still have the clause about not using it is safety critical situations in the EULA?

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Re: NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Please, oh please! Now where did I put that baby Krait..

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Anonymous Coward

With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

No, as no amount of hardware can make up for a crap operating system.

Nokia need to disappear into a room and come out when they have got rid of Elop and have a Android product for sale. Until then, nobody cares.

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Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

no amount of hardware can make up for a crap operating system.

You have probably never seen a lumia, let alone used one. If you had then you would understand why it deserves to be the No1 smartphone on the market.

Android is a mixed bag, too many handsets and too many versions of OS

iPhone has stagnated and failed to innovate

Win 8 \ Lumia is a robust, fast, almost sexy phone that has power (sadly lacking in some apps)

I'm an android user, but as soon as my old phone gives up the ghost I will invest in a mid-range lumia!

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Happy

Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

But they already have disappeared into a room, and come out with phone, well some of them have.

It's a Jolla phone with an OS known as Sailfish!

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Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

Would be curious to know exactly what aspect you think is crap. Have you even used it as a primary phone for longer then it takes to fondle it on a display stand in the shop? I find it far quicker and easier then Android\iOS.

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Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

They do need to hang Elop and burn any agreements with MS, but they also need to come up with their own OS, preferably restarting the Meego/Harmattan project. I personally am not interested in yet another Android clone, especially not when Google starts getting heavily involved.

@ukgnome

WP8 has not only failed to innovate, it took massive steps backwards from WM6. It seems fast because of long pretty-looking animations. What has the "power" is the hardware, not the OS. WP8 deserves what it gets.

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WTF?

Re: With 20Mp sensor - NOW will you try Windows Phone 8?

@Aoyagi Aichou

In a world drowning under iOS and its Android clones, it just boggles my mind that MS can be accused of not innovating with WP7/8.

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I will invest in a mid-range lumia!

Because you really do want to buy a phone from a company with a history of dropping operating systems like hot potatoes, which has a an operating system from a company with past form for dropping operating system and replacing them with incompatible systems.

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JC_

@Aoyagi Aichou

WP8 has not only failed to innovate, it took massive steps backwards from WM6. It seems fast because of long pretty-looking animations. What has the "power" is the hardware, not the OS. WP8 deserves what it gets.

If it seems fast to the user then it is fast. What other criteria is more important than having a happy user?

Counting cores and claiming a phone is better is pointless willy waving.

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IT Angle

Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

@Neil B

Microsoft took the approach of locking everything down, pretty looking and "app" centric, cloudy and other thing that Apple has been doing as well. The only innovation I've heard about concerning Lumias is the mechanical moving lens, but that's hardly Microsoft's work.

@JC_

I can also make a car look fast (for some people anyway) by adding stripes, flames and other nonsense. Or taking a picture of the car and blurring background and car's wheels. But neither of that makes the car actually fast. Claiming that it is fast would be a lie. So even though users are happy with nice animations and the device feels fast for them, it doesn't mean that the device actually is fast. Ergo they are lying.

As for the power, I of course meant it figuratively, not that the phone on itself has outstanding performance.

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JC_

Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

Aoyagi, I don't think you understand: if the phone provides "nice animations" while doing something, then it is being responsive, not "lying" to you.

Lag and stuttering are signs of a defective OS, not a feature.

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Re: @Aoyagi Aichou

Well, the OS isn't lying, its fans are. It's exactly like that in games - they use elevators, airlocks and other small areas as transitions so that they can "seamlessly" load the next section, but that doesn't mean the game has efficient loading algorithms. It only means that you have something to look at while it loads on the background. If they made the animation three times as long, it would still look pretty and they would have enough time to "seamlessly" load HERE City Lens, for example.That doesn't make OS fast. It makes it "pretty", "feeling responsive", "fluid" and so on. Not fast. From what I have seen (and I have very limited experiences with that), iOS seems faster. If it was designed to be fast, I would be able (for example) to close IE and get into photos from the last month under a second. That's currently impossible, because the animations take up more than half of the time. God damn it, the phone has 1GB of RAM, why the hell is it so slow? 1GB of RAM is enough for Windows 7, so why do I have to suffer these annoyingly lengthy animations?

Oh, and WP8 lags/stutters as well, don't think it doesn't (even when everything that can be turned off is turned off). Though I would hardly consider certain degree of lags as a sign of defective OS, that doesn't make any sense.

I'll have to stop here, I don't want this to get derailed too much :/

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"Our professional photographer's review of the tech"

"The camera and the PureView technology are very attractive but the Belle OS puts me off making such an investment."

Now substitue 'WinPho OS' for 'Belle OS' and you get the same response from El Reg readers.

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the Belle OS puts me off making such an investment

But the plug was already pulled on Symbian at that point.

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Anonymous Coward

Interested

I'm interested in new developments with camera irrespective of operating systems so looking forward to seeing where Nokia can take the next version of PureView. If its good I'll consider buying one but lets see first.

What a halo of negativity reading these posts to start the day. I feel sorry for this bunch of goons whose hatred of Microsoft makes them blind to looking at potentially interesting technology. Every bloody day after day.

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Happy

The best camera

Is the one you have, surely?

I almost always have my phone, but rarely my DSLR

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Re: The best camera

I've not yet considered getting a DSLR for just that very reason... it's a bit of lump to carry around, and not something I would always want to leave in an unattended vehicle- in short, I wouldn't get enough use out of it to justify its cost.

I do have a 'premium compact', a Lumix LX-5 that fits in a jacket pocket, and is with me enough of the time to capture interesting shots I stumble across, and in most conditions.

However, even this I don't have with me as often as I do my phone.

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Re: The best camera

I have the 808 Pureview and it's a great phone and camera.

As the article said, I'm amazed at the regular software updates the phone gets.

For example only yesterday it received 6 such updates.

There have been some issues on it appears certain networks / 3G at certain times. I've experienced such issues but only on Vodafone, not for example T-Mobile. Could be that the frequency of the networks are an issue. However, yesterday's updates (one of which was for 3G) have apparently sorted it. In those areas where I previously had a non-existent signal strength, today I have 4 bars!

Considering Symbian is supposed to be defunct I'm amazed that so much time and energy is being devoted to it. Well done Nokia or should I say Accenture!

It's a shame that the world leading tech that Nokia had / has in imaging is still showcased in a phone that's a year old and in an OS that is supposed to be inferior to what they have now!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The best camera

I carry a Canon Ixus 500HS all the time, it's small and photographically it will completely trash anything that a phone manufacturer can squeeze into a phone. Quite frankly, a pixel counting pissing contest is a complete waste of time. If your grand ambition is photos of your drunk friends spewing up over each other, or a sneaky shot of your friend's genitalia to embarrass them with on Facebook a phone's fine, else get a camera!

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Re: The best camera

is Nokia maps still being updated? really tempted to get the 808 because of the camera plus my c5-03's maps aren't supported any longer.

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Re: The best camera

The best camera

Is the one you have, surely?

Yes, but for many people, the snapshot-quality camera on their phone is already good enough. I can't see why I'd ever purchase a phone simply because it had a better camera. That's so far down my list of needs that it doesn't even register.

So no, Andrew, Nokia's magic camera won't make me try WinPho 8. It wouldn't make me try any other phone OS, either.

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I'm in.

Definitely interested. I like WP8 and I want a decent camera that can mean I don't carry a compact all the time. I almost bought the 808 despite the crappy OS and screen.

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Re: I'm in.

You mean the OS which, despite being nearly dead, is still better (more open) than WP8 in most aspects?

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