back to article British LulzSec hackers hear jail doors slam shut for years

Three British members of the notorious LulzSec hacktivist crew and a hacker affiliate were sentenced today for a series of attacks against targets including Sony, News International, the CIA and the UK's Serious Organised Crime Agency. The youngest of the four accused avoided jail with a suspended sentence while the other three …

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Anonymous Coward

"Cleary (aka Viral) admitted hacking into systems at the Pentagon. He has been indicted in the US and faces possible extradition proceedings. Davis has also been indicted in the US."

Where they will be charged with embarrassing the US Government by showing just how weak their IT Security is.

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Facepalm

exactly

and they'll get 30 years each. Who's doing it for the lulz now?

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Big Brother

Crime != Punishment

Proving that the government isn't all-knowing and infallible is the most serious of all crimes.

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Re: Crime != Punishment

One would have thought that any *vaguely* aware person would have realised by now that it's a pretty stupid idea to attack US government machines.

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@ David WilsonRe: Crime != Punishment

Agreed.

Not just stupid because forbidden. Forbidden because wrong. What those advocating such attacks - indeed all of those attacks for which the lulzsec-ers were convicted - seem not to realise is the government isn't just some autonomous organisation. It *IS* the people. Agent, representative, protector, and personification.

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Boffin

@Tapeador

I think you're confusing theory with the cold facts. Yes, in theory the government is 'us' and is basically paid to handle the chores which involve all of us (think cleaning up the city, road management, etc, etc).

The reality however is different; the government as a whole has grown into a machinery of its own with very few connections into the community. As such it holds their own agenda's, doesn't always put the interest of the people above their own (a very good and global example is the ongoing lobbying done by politicians to try and get a spot somewhere in the European parliament) and in many cases even tries to undo itself from its own responsibilities (think about privatising "community services" (my own wording) such as water and electricity services).

Don't take this message the wrong way; this isn't a justification to DDoS the living daylights out of them. I'm merely commenting on your vision of the government, that vision is in my personal opinion quite flawed to say the least.

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Happy

Re: fawlty: exactly

"and they'll get 30 years each....." Even better, as soon as they're on US soil, I expect the US companies involved will hit them for damages claims. In US courts they'll go down BIG TIME! Even if these ID10T5 ever get out of prison they will spend the rest of their lives scraping a living trying to pay off their debts. Now that's the lulz!

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Re: Crime != Punishment

There is no way that any crime like this should get anything more than a slap on the wrist.

It is depressing what these cases show :

That society cares more about companies losing money by being incompetent and not settings up their systems well enough.

Than child sex abuse stuff (Whilst the person in question is actually alive so it actually has a point. After the fact it is history and there is no point in it certainly not wasting police time with it).

Or rape or robbery.

That it is worse to steal from a company than and individual. (Take hosting a file vs breaking into someones house and stealing a cd).

There is something fundamentally wrong with most societies.

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Re: Crime != Punishment

DDOS attacks do nothing but flood the server, if the server is flooded it can crash

its nothing todo with security, most companies use the same website domains subdomains for windows WAN login network

if you use all the 100/0 m/Gbs, all the office workers on their network are left crying because nothing works

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Re: Crime != Punishment

h3: "There is something fundamentally wrong with most societies."

Yes there is, and it is called greed. However, I completely disagree with you on your opinion about a slap on the wrist, but on the other hand I completely agree with you on the biased perspective of business over citizen.

If I take your sentiment and zoom out a little, then maybe another evil is how legal punishment has been overly micro managed. There were days when stealing a horse, raping a woman, robbing a bank, committing arson, stealing cattle, committing murder and many others all saw the same possible end...public hanging. But today, how many ways can the prosecution go with deciding a punishment with any 1 of the above listed crimes? To me, there seems to be just too many ways to be punished for crimes that are, at their core, extremely similar.

Now, about the article. Truthfully, I don't care what becomes of them, but the only thing I never liked about this whole story was how they got ratted out. Good lord, I hate rats! Sort of a indescribable personality trait of mine similar to why I'm heterosexual or why my favorite colour is blue. It might just be me, but I've always felt that the rat should always get a little somth'n extra for being, well...the rat.

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Anonymous Coward

You cannot be punished twice for the same crime here in the UK, but that won't stop their extradition to the US, they will need to seek political asylum in one of the many South American Embassy's.... Because there will be no protection here.

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Re: fawlty: exactly

These kids were idiots, yes. But slavering like that over the thought of their lives being destroyed by massive fines and jail sentences? Matt Bryant, you are a miserable, disgusting excuse for a human being, and I am ashamed to be of the same species as you.

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Happy

Re: Rattus Rattus Re: fawlty: exactly

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and just watch me laugh at yours whilst I go on my way, untroubled by your shrieking froth. Oh look - one of your convicted e-crim "heros" turned out to be a child pr0n collector, doesn't that mean you and the rest of the sheeple should be screaming at him? Didn't the Anonyputzs say they were going to attack such types? LOL, now that must give them (and you) a dilemma!

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Re: Rattus Rattus fawlty: exactly

I don't give a shit about the kids themselves. What I object to is the delight you take in their ruined lives. Regardless of what they have done, the point I am making is that you, Matt, are an asshole.

And have a slow clap for trotting out the "child porn" card. Well done. The term has been watered down so much by governments world wide casting ever-greater nets, that my first assumption would be that he probably had a picture of some forty year old actress wearing a school uniform.

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Stop

Re: Crime != Punishment

Yeah, here's a decent list of IPs and IP ranges that are best avoided whilst portscanning, LOIC'ing, DDOSing, etc...

http://imgur.com/93P3sC2

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Anonymous Coward

@ Tapeador

Any chance you can lend me those rose-tinted spectacles you're viewing the world through and pass on a large helping of that unhealthy naivety that makes the world so simple for you?

"government isn't just some autonomous organisation. It *IS* the people"

Wow!

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Anonymous Coward

Actually, you can.

Double Jeopardy was abolished to help with terrorism trials.

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@Rattus Rattus

>>"And have a slow clap for trotting out the "child porn" card. Well done. The term has been watered down so much by governments world wide casting ever-greater nets, that my first assumption would be that he probably had a picture of some forty year old actress wearing a school uniform."

So your first assumption is that it's more than 50% likely that someone convicted of possession of child pornography was actually innocent of any criminal offence?

And you think it's a good idea to share that first assumption in a case where rather more detail was easily available (even to people who had read this very thread before you decided to offer everyone the benefit of your opinion)?

While there are arguments which could be made about the reach of the current law, that's not what you're talking about - you're saying that even given the current extent of the law, you reckon that most of the people convicted under it didn't even break it.

What evidence do you base that on?

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Re: Crime != Punishment

something like 1 of these somewhere or just some opensource program to manage your pipe and protocols

http://www.etinc.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=88919

and give your http public server 30mbs

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FAIL

Re: Brattus Brattus Re: Rattus Rattus fawlty: exactly

All I can say you just carry on bleating whatever childish justifications and delusions help you make it through the day. There are very tight legal definitions of child porn in the UK courts, and any attempt to pass off anything milder would have been seized on by their legal team and trumpeted as "evidence" of a setup. I would suggest you go buy a clue as you seem incapable of developing one yourself, but I suspect even the haul of Bitcoins AVunit has run off with wouldn't be enough for the extensive neurosurgery your case requires. Enjoy!

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Anonymous Coward

Weak Security

It makes no difference if my front door has a simple lock or a more convoluted affair, but regardless anyone getting into my home and stealing my belongings is a thief.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: fawlty: exactly

These men knowingly caused damage and stole property so they deserve punishment, same as anyone else. Being extradited to the US is an occupational hazard of criminals so tough, they should have thought of it before they committed crimes. If someone breaks into my house i wont be lenient on them, will you? I'd expect the rozzers and CPS to deal with them. Having said that, there should be some leniency for first offence and only punishment where direct damage was done.

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Re: Weak Security

"It makes no difference if my front door has a simple lock or a more convoluted affair, but regardless anyone getting into my home and stealing my belongings is a thief."

I hope that is of some comfort to you when the insurance doesn't pay out, because in their view, although he's a thief, you're an idiot.

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Anonymous Coward

Whoops !

Don't drop the soap lads !

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Whoops !

Its funny because it is rape!!

And it would be happening to men!!

I bet you'd laugh if they got HIV or hepatitis as a result!! Proportional punishment has no place in the sentencing of computer criminals, lol, amirite?

Lucky there's no punishment for just being a horrible human being, eh?

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Re: Whoops !

The 10 point rape humor scale

10 - man rapes man in prison

8 - man rapes man out of prison

5 - woman rapes woman in prison

0 - jimmy saville

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Re: Whoops !

didn't say i agreed with the scale, just exposing the illogical reality of it all!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Whoops ! @AC 15:02

Ohh how wotton of me to have a little joke at someone else's misfortune.

If you're daft enough to poke a sleeping dragon with a pointy stick, don't go complaining when it wakes up and just leaves a pair of smouldering shoes after it's finished burning you to a crisp.

PS WTF is amirite ? Some new brand of floor polish or mineral that I am unfamiliar with ?

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Re: Whoops ! @AC 15:02

"amirite"

I believe it's mentioned in Groundhog Day.

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Re: Whoops ! @AC 15:02

"Ohh how wotton of me to have a little joke at someone else's misfortune."

Ok, no problem mate, just make sure you laugh just as hard the next time someone cracks a joke about hide and seek champion of the year when some girl's violated corpse is found in a ditch with a broom handle shoved up her twat.

It's not the humour that's the problem, it's the double standards in applying it.

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Anonymous Coward

Unbelievable

These prison sentences are way too short and this is why cybercrime is rapidly growing in Blighty.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unbelievable

Too short? So some young teens and twenty somethings just got sentenced to between 2 and 2.5 years and you think that too short? Despite what the daily fail would like you to believe prison is not a nice place. The food is horrific, the cells are the size of a small flat toilet and you have to take a shit with a junkie in the room. These boys were arrogant and stupid and will have learned from this when they come out and hopefully go on to lead normal lives. These crimes were not "throw away the key and let them rot" crimes committed by serial criminals with tattoos of swastikas on their necks and dots on their arms signifying how many rapes they have committed or people they have murdered. The damages quoted by the organisations they attacked are vastly over inflated as is always the case and they are serving bird as we speak, long enough bird in my opinion.

Each an every hour spent in prison for those who are not hardened crims is a living nightmare. They got their just deserts and the punishment was fair and not overly lenient.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unbelievable

You have obviously never been in a prison.

These guys are going in as young boys "doin it for the Lulz", that is definately not the way they are going to come out.

Their crimes are not so serious, six months community work would have served for more that 2.5 years in jail.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unbelievable

Being young and stupid is not a defense. Anyway they were all adults at the time of the offenses apart from one. They did get off lightly and I say that as someone who has spent time in cells.

Hopefully they were all banned from using computers for a long period of time.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Unbelievable

You appear unaware of how the system works in 2013. They will (unless they seriously screw up) do a maximum of 50% of the sentence and unless they have previous convictions they'll be in an open prison within 3 months. If they do more than a year (any of them) I will be astounded as the prisons are overflowing now.

That's not a comment on anything other than our judicial system BTW - personally I think the sentence handed down should be the sentence your serve unless you show exceptional remorse. It shouldn't be the case that sentences are automatically cut by half, that's just a farcical situation for us all.

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Re: Unbelievable

Almost - They will be in open prison as soon as they are categorised as Cat D which can take anything up to 2 months, sooner if it is very high profile or if the prison needs additional space. The guy with 32 months to serve will be out after 11.5 months and for the 24 month sentence he will be out in 7.5 months.

In the meantime they are in a Cat B prison on 23 hour lockdown unless they take on a job which can take several weeks to get. In a cell with a random crim 23 hours a day, farting, shitting and watching jeremy kyle. Not much fun.

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Stop

Re; AC Re: Unbelievable

"....young boys "doin it for the Lulz"...." Renting out a botnet of 100,000 compromised systems at £2500 a pop to any criminal that comes along gives a hint - at least to those of us with an upbringing that included right and wrong and a grounding in personal responsibility - that "the Lulz" is just apologist froth from those bitter losers that would excuse anything that involved hitting out at "the Man". A pathetic fail to grasp the realities of their criminal activities due to socipolitical blinkers.

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Re: Unbelievable

I'd be happy if they were at least up front about it. "You will serve 2 to 8 months, subject to behaviour" is easier to take than "you will serve 8 months" and then they're out after 2.

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Pirate

Re: Unbelievable

"and watching jeremy kyle"

Say it aint so!! Those poor bastards! Wait until the EU hear of this inhuman treatment of prisoners!!

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Re: Re; AC Unbelievable

"A pathetic fail to grasp the realities of their criminal activities due to socipolitical blinkers."

Very true, they were definitely not too clear on where the moral event horizon was, and jail should be the expected outcome. A bit like 'victim' Sony's casual mass-root kitting of 5.7 million CD-buying customers' PCs a few years back. But then, those Sony managers who ordered one of the largest criminal hacks in history are of course quietly serving out their prison sentences aren't they? Oh... wait.

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Re: Unbelievable

When you consider the fact that you get between 4 and 5 years for manslaughter in Blighty (and I'm not talking death by dangerous driving; this is violent crime that goes bad.), these sentences are grossly disproportionate. They should all have received community service, or less than 6 month stints inside at best.

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They'll be working for the state within the first half of their sentence.

No question.

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Facepalm

Why because they know to launch a DDOS campaign? They couldn't even cover their tracks effectively...

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didn't you listen to the Judge fibbles?

"They are at the cutting edge of a contemporary and emerging species of international criminal offending known as cyber crime"

these kids might know a thing or two about these new fangled contraptions known as computers. We need them if we want to stop the Red Chinese putting a logic bomb through our backdoor.

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Facepalm

Re: NomNomNom

At one time the cutting edge of car crime was lobbing a brick through the window and yanking out the stereo, and I don't recall any of those "cutting edge criminals" being employed by the Police to prevent car crime. The real superduper cybercrims don't get caught.

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Got off lightly

Given the cost to the businesses they attacked and the cost of investigating the attacks, these sentences amount to little more than a slap on the wrist. A person driving a bulldozer into the foyer of a single business, causing 1/10th of the damage would get a longer sentence than that.

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Re: Got off lightly

[Citation Needed]

If that were true though I'd hazard a guess and say they'd get a longer sentence because of their disregard for other peoples' safety. Judges tend to frown upon the endangerment of life, even if it wasn't intentional.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Got off lightly

Nonsense. Even the quoted "damage" cost was not more than the equivalent of a class 4 felony criminal damage to property, which in most jurisdictions results in a suspended sentence, community service, and repayment of the damage.

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Re: Got off lightly

"Nonsense. Even the quoted "damage" cost was not more than the equivalent of a class 4 felony criminal damage to property,"

Which article are you reading?

One accused was making $2500 a month from running a botnet of 100,000 computers and charged with 6 offences. Please tell me how much it would cost to clean a botnet up? How much loss would you put on each of those PCs in terms of its degraded performance and denial of service to the people who owned them?

How much total would you put on a rampant spree of attacks that went on for nearly two years, stealing information from various sites and the consequent harm both financially and reputationally to various companies?

Just Sony alone claimed they lost $20 million which is not unreasonable given how long PSN was down, the loss of reputation, the loss of revenues and the theft of 24 million account details.

Go do $100,000 aggravated property damage over and see what sentence you get. The simple fact is these people got off extremely lightly.

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