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back to article You want to put 3D gun designs on the web? You'll need a 2D printer

Much fun has been had over the Liberator, the 3D printed plastic gun. Our editor - a man who knows about such things - here at El Reg has pronounced it a piece of crap. Innumerable people have declared that it's either the end of civilisation as we know it or proof perfect that the Commie statists will never win. My own …

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"Innumerable people"

This is the greatest defect in democracy.

The few well educated people who think things through well get one vote each.

The many uneducated morons with no ability for critical thought get one vote each.

No wonder the politicians pander to the latter even when they are capable of thought.

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Re: "Innumerable people"

intellicracy :)

you know, get an extra vote for every point above average intelligence (or even every 10 points, or scaled exponentially to balance out the masses of stupid)

world would be such a nice place

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Re: intellicracy

That might not be a good idea. While I may be smart, I may not be benevolent or well informed. My extra votes may well do more harm than good.

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Re: "Innumerable people"

There are a lot of very intelligent people who believe (and will vote on the basis of) some very stupid things.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Innumerable people"

This is the greatest defect in democracy.

The few well educated people who think things through well get one vote each.

The many uneducated morons with no ability for critical thought get one vote each.

No wonder the politicians pander to the latter even when they are capable of thought.

Democracy does have a few defects, such as 4 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, but it's a reasonable system if kept free of corruption. The latter condition is missing in the US, IMHO it is no longer even able to *PRETEND* to be a truly functioning open democracy.

I do, however, a question which even excite the bozo vote: couldn't we introduce this personal responsibility in finance? Even, say, 5 years post exit? Methinks it could seriously improve the way banks and governments deal with other people's money..

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just use a CNC machine and make guns and spaceships out of cro-mo titanium, after you designed it in your 3d program

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FAIL

@zmodem

Total lack of comprehension. Again.

This is not about the manufacturing process. This is about US export laws regarding weapons.

Kindly bugger off to reddit or something.

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Re: @zmodem

the past few articles about 3d printers and scanners, is nothing more then a big let down, because the editor cannot make his plastic gun, its about nothing much more

the export laws mean nothing, its just another articles about not being able to make a plastic gun

CNC machines have been about for years, along with 3d laser scanners using to make replica and lighter parts for bikes and car engines

any CNC engineer can make gun parts or sci-fi knifes during lunch

3d printers are just a toy for the poor

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Anonymous Coward

@zmodem

It eludes me why you bother posting on here at all, I doubt very much your comments have any effect on anyone because in the main they are completely incomprehensible. When they do approach some semblance of meaning they are largely irrelevant and are therefore a complete waste of everyone's time and effort.

Maybe you should pay attention to actually reading things, such as the articles and comments by intelligent people, and try to understand their meanings.

While you do this you might also pick up the ability to use simple features of the English language such as punctuation, capital letters and pluralisation. I think the concept of tense is probably a bit too advanced for you.

When you have reached the dizzying heights of actually having something useful to say and being able to express those ideas in a format understandable by others, please do come back and participate in a constructive discussion.

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Re: @zmodem

You have gone off on a tangent irrelevant to this article as the previous poster was trying to tell you.

Whether you make a CAD file for a CNC machine or a 3D printer, it can still be controlled by ITAR if it is about making a weapon and trying to send that file abroad. Anyone in the US can send each other CAD files (free or for a fee) and make their own guns. They need a particular licence to sell that gun, they need an export control licence to sell that gun or send the CAD file abroad.

Not any CNC engineer can make a gun or gun part that a professional would trust. Making such items that wont fail on you at a really bad time requires a certain level of skill and very accurate dimensions. This is because even after a part comes out of the CNC machine, it still needs to be checked or adjusted by hand (scraping edges off for example). Any skilled gun maker has that knowledge, a normal CNC engineer does not although it should not be too hard to teach them.

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Re: @zmodem

any professional would trust a CNC machine weapon part if its done with the right metal, modern titanium is the new carbon for downhill mountain bikes, <> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuuPERw7_mA

the CNC end result is alot better then a production line press

CNC machine are in any garage that does custom builds, they are run by butt scratching everyday mechanics with some kind of intelligence and most everyday people could`nt care about the government, and emailing a stupid little file with a 3d laser scan in of some buretta part

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Anonymous Coward

re: "cro-mo titanium"

Chrome-Molybdenum, also known as CR-MO or Cro-moly, is a type of steel.

Titanium is a different element.

There is no such thing as "cro-mo titanium".

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @zmodem, apostrophe

Careful, don't want to be getting ahead of yourself.

Try some basic things first, like sentences. I think apostrophes are running before you can walk, so to speak at this stage.

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Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

You are right, he is a moron. I hope he is not in charge of anything more dangerous than a computer attached to the internet!

Don't bother taking my word for it, use a search engine like google to search for in depth articles on how people make guns. Stick to concepts about using steel, anything more complicated is a bit beyond you at this stage...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

On the CNC gun thing, there is more to it than just machining the form... there are heat-treating process to modify the properties of your machined parts... some bits you want hard, other bits you want to be tough.

Oh, and titanium has been used in mountain bikes for years... the cost of the material came down drastically after the collapse of the Soviet Union (who had stockpiled it for military purposes), and it is now the trickiness of welding and finishing Ti frames that keeps the cost up.

It's strange all this hype about one person being able to make one gun... when a far more infamous rifle owes its notoriety to being relatively easy to mass produce - stamping and drawing metal components is quicker and cheaper than machining them once you've invested in the tooling. You've then armed hundreds of men, rather than a lone nutter.

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

i know... titanium is soft and shit.. mordern titanium is strong enough for downhill mountain bike frames >> like in red bull rampage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuuPERw7_mA

cro-mo titanium, most IT people would know the basics of what your talking about, most have carbon road bikes or go trekking on mountain bikes

the IT wages, pays for it all

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

if you buy a normal bike frame it has to be cro-mo alloy for proper off road use or the frame will snap like all of your kona, giant etc high street bikes

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Roo
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FAIL

Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

"i know... titanium is soft and shit.. "

You appear to know very little about Titanium. It would be heart breaking to find someone taking you said seriously.

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

@AC Posted Tuesday 14th May 2013 11:02 GMT & 11:36 GMT - No need to be AC, Zmodem is clearly living in a world with a maximum occupancy of one, you have written in your posts some very eloquent put downs.

If I had a vote in the intellicracy being defined in the first thread of this comments page then it would in favour of removing Zmodem.

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

untreated or modified, all alloys are sodt and shit, titanium is just the lightest alloy and has better conductive properties, and the hardest to mine

all bike frames for dh/fr are made from cro-mo alloy

not many halfords and asdas are going to sell some £4000 cubes and nukeproof team spec bikes or frames

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

cro-mo alloy, it has enough stength for the punishment of redbull rampage downhill

you can easily use it to shed a few lbs of most guns and make your own parts

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Re: @zmodem

>or send the CAD file abroad

Yes and how many people have had FBI raids for posting the cad files of a basically useless toy gun on their website?

http://www.stormthecastle.com/trebuchet/trebuchet-plan.htm

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Re: @zmodem

none, replica guns have been made for years, some tard who does'nt have a criminal braincell in his head make all the other tards get excited, now when the media clears, there just be a tard irc chan full of tards that keep getting raided, with the media following it for a thousand years

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

And titanium is notoriously difficult to machine (saw a special on the YF-22 YF-23 competition. one of them had a little trouble with some titanium part, despite all their experience).

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

alloys tend to be more brittle than pure elements

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Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

Considering that houses in the US are often painted in paints with a titanium oxide base, I don't think rarity is a consideration at all at any reasonable price level.

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Re: @zmodem (Ugh!)

Your metals wide boy here.

Titanium oxide (TiO2) is indeed the white pigment in white paint. $500 a tonne or summat at the gates of the manufacturing plant. Easy to make (stick ilmenite into a furnace with coal, light coal, feed in chlorine, separate the bits through distillation of the various chlorides, all gases at these temperatures).

Ti metal is a great deal more expensive. Last I looked $15 a kg but could be very different from that now. The process of TiO2 to Ti is hugely energy intensive.

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

alloys are soft, its why you can stab original alloy car wheel from the late 80s with a knife, bend bike cogs with a hammer and they wear out in an average 6 months and the chain slips, a trusty steel cassette can last 15 years but weighs 2-300 grams more

use some cro-mo alloy and you can get rid of 8-10 lbs off a desert eagle

http://toucharcade.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/854059_3.jpg

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/images/loaded-desert-eagle-web.jpg

alloy frames = http://media.chopmtb.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/GT-959x540.jpg

cro-mo alloy frames = http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/products/12133/photos/11275/s780_2013_Banshee_Spitfire_Frame_black.jpg

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Anonymous Coward

Titanium

Dude, Titanium is not an alloy.

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Re: Titanium

titanium is a alloy,

the top dogs in made to order bike frames that cost £6-12,000 have frames 100% titanium

making replica parts for guns out of cro-mo alloy which has plenty of strength and alot lighter then steel, does'nt really matter from a military point if your gun will have a full service every month or two

there is no other possible way for organized crime to make replica guns but to 3d laser scan all the parts

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Headmaster

Re: Titanium

Titanium is an elemental metal.

Sorry. Just wanted to clear up that point of fact. Titanium, like most metals can be alloyed with something else to give it different properties and I see no reason why a bicycle cannot be made from titanium or titanium alloy. Anyway, I care not for the downhill crazies dodging trees. I'm sticking to the road!

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Re: Titanium

on old bikes, its only usually axles and rivets made from titanium, cro-mo titanium or something else has had to come along for a whole frame to be strong enough

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

"Alloy" rims are alloys of aluminum or magnesium. They are far tougher than the original pure metals (Al or Mg) (haha, no one would even use a pure magnesium rim).

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

theres plenty of them

more on the die cast single mould 24" rims for downhill dry rocky mud and bogs world

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Re: re: "cro-mo titanium"

cheap wheels that are welded and 26", you will end with the mad buckles that cant be fixed

http://findability.org/images/bentbike.png

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Unhappy

Interesting. P**s away $850Bn in banks and your *not* liable but 10g of Hf and you are.

Now had that been the other way round things might be different...

ITAR, Making every foreigner feel as welcome as the leader of North Korea.

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ironic is my middle name

It's a bit ironic considering that we're talking about a country that's doing everything it can to sell as many guns as possible to its citizens, while at the same time trying to keep em from overflowing over the borders.

nice reporting, i enjoyed reading it.

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Re: ironic is my middle name

Yes but suppose the Chinese discovered the secret of gunpowder.

They could invade America

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Coffee/keyboard

Re: ironic is my middle name @ YAAc

New keyboard, please! When will I learn not to consume food or drink when reading the comments?

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Anonymous Coward

I dont like the precedent that a 3d cad file can be a weapon. Surely its not a weapon until you build it in to an actual weapon? This is a dangerous precedent in itself if they rule that they are illegal files.

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Re: dangerous precedent

There are plenty of files that are illegal to possess.

But I agree that plans for a weapon are not a weapon. Plans require a certain amount of expertise and tools in order for someone to turn them into something that works.

Otherwise, I'm probably in a lot of trouble for owning the plans for a Deathstar like battle fortress. That's got to be a weapon of mass destruction in anybody's book.

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It's a well established principle that plans for licensable items are licensable.

Second, these plans have categorically not been deemed illegal. They are perfectly legal, defcad created them with the full knowledge of the US government. It's only the international dissemination of them that is being reviewed.

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Re: international dissemination

So like the 56-bit/128-bit encryption issue from a few years back?

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Re: international dissemination

I don't think so. Since then regs have changed a lot. You wouldn't need to invoke the first amendment in order to distribute things without a licence if they were genuinely public domain documents for example.

At this precise moment in time there is no confirmed controlled data in the defcad documents. It's all speculation, and a lot of FUD about the government trampling over the constitution, trying to grasp at smoke, and incorrect assertions about the (il)legality of the plans.

Ideally, we should all wait for the outcome of the determination of jurisdiction before leaping to any conclusion.

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Can't agree that printing it out works

Prety sure you'll find that all plans or technical documents for ITAR products are ITAR, irrespective of the medIum they reside in.

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Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

IANAL But when an ASCII STL or PLY file is printed out, it would surely fall under the First Amendment in the same way that the source to PGP did.

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Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

Here's the relevant legislation:

§ 120.10 Technical data.

(a) Technical data means, for purposes of this subchapter:

(1) Information, other than software as defined in §120.10(a)(4), which is re- quired for the design, development, production, manufacture, assembly, op- eration, repair, testing, maintenance or modification of defense articles. This includes information in the form of blueprints, drawings, photographs, plans, instructions or documentation.

(2) Classified information relating to defense articles and defense services;

(3) Information covered by an inven- tion secrecy order;

(4) Software as defined in §121.8(f) of this subchapter directly related to de- fense articles;

(5) This definition does not include information concerning general sci- entific, mathematical or engineering principles commonly taught in schools, colleges and universities or informa- tion in the public domain as defined in §120.11. It also does not include basic marketing information on function or purpose or general system descriptions of defense articles.

(b) [Reserved]

Freedom of speech has limitations. You can't , for example publish someone else's work and claim no consequences because of freedom of speech. You can't publish someone else's proprietary information you obtained under an NDA and claim freedom of speech makes it ok.

Of course the ruling may come back that none of defcad's stuff is ITAR, that parts of it are, or that all of it is.

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Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

Way back then, the fact it was printed as a book made it protected speech under the first amendment. Since then, source code itself has been determined to enjoy the same protection.

However, contrary to everything you have read that says the government is acting unconstitutionally, so far nothing has been banned.

We're all still waiting for the state department to say what, if anything in the documents might actually be ITAR controlled.

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Happy

Re: Can't agree that printing it out works

I believe it is the fact that it was printed as a book made many speculate and argue that it was protected by free speech/the first amendment. This was never actually determined one way or the other because the US government did not take it to court because they were afraid of setting a precedent. Therefore it is not actually known how the supreme court would rule in regards to a book or other content of this type. Once could almost cite the government's inaction in the PGP case as precedent... IMO all that needs to be done is to host the files on a US based server. That way they never leave the country by anything the content creator(s) or administrators do.

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Alert

I wonder how simple the design has to be for this licensing and ensuing accountability to engage?

Accuracy aside, I'm pretty sure I could knock something together that would fire a bullet in a deadly-ish kinda way. Whether my invention could do it a second time or not is another question...

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