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back to article 'Hotmail, since you changed to Outlook, you've been a massive pr**k'

This was the week when Nokia took some acrimonious advice from shareholders at the AGM, one of whom suggested the firm was on its way down to the pits of doom. Tired of the firm's direction and the absence of the much-promised turnaround, shareholder Hannu Virtanen told chief exec Stephen Elop: You're a nice guy ... and the …

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Microshaft... the plot you have lost.

Winblows 8 - DIRE!

Outlook - A shabby version of gmail.

Skype - Can't stand it!!! WTF was wrong with Messenger???

Office 2013 - One system wonder subscription model with no new features of note.

If self-destruction is Microsofts game-plan. Then, they're doing it right.

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almost forgot

Thanks for the reminder! Needed to uninstall Messenger - done.

ye gods.. GoogleTalk...

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Re: Microshaft... the plot you have lost.

Gmail is awful compared to Outlook.

The web interface for gmail is a total mess and the common things are not available using the right mouse button. (It used to be ok now Google are actively trying to make it as much of a time sync as possible.)

Exchange Activesync for gmail made it tolerable despite the changes so naturally they got rid of that too.

Gmail for domains axed (Outlook you can use it for 300 accounts per domain.)

Personal email I use Windows 8 mail client. (Was 100% perfect prior to Google dropping the activesync support).

Work email I use mutt (sort of emacs bindings) and procmail.

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And they charge too much, too...

Oh, wait

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Go

If only...

...all judges would write using a sci-fi heavy wording...

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Hotmail veteran

I'm ashamed to say I was an early adopter of Hotmail, and still use it... or at least did till the switch to Outlook.com, which now doesn't seem to operate in any sensible fashion on my Android in any droid browser. And the Hotmail app for Android doesn't seem to like attachments.

It's got so bad I end up forwarding emails to my Gmail account to open them on the go.

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Re: Hotmail veteran

For once Eadons microsoft bashing makes sense

I've been a longtime hotmail user, signed up for my first email on hotmail back in 1999 i believe. Since then I haven't really left hotmail, I've tried a few others, but always settled on going back to hotmail because I liked the no thrills standard "does what you want" interface.

And then they made outlook.com

Dear god in heaven WHY, first time using it, it felt like my eyes were being burned out of their sockets, so freakin' bright it was like it had been designed by a smurf. And actually using it was even worse. Yesterday was the first time since the new interface I've had to send an email... I regretted it instantly, recipient in one place, subject in another, the body of text somewhere else. why couldn't they just keep it in a simple list format, recipient, subject message, it's simple, looks right and is easy to follow. When you send a letter you don't chop off 1/5th of the page to put their name on the side, put a subject in a giant heading at the very top of the page and then the body of text normal size. It just looks stupid.

I cannot log into hotmail from my android phone anymore, not from chrome, nore the inbuilt browser, keeps telling me my password is wrong.

Rather than just updating the existing htomail app, they just change it so it redirects you to download the outlook app.

Literally the only thing keeping me on hotmail is the hassle of changing all my accounts to 'newemail@mydomain.com' (yes I am using literally in the correct form)

But even that is wearing thin now. I plan to start gradually making the switch over the weekend, moving over as many accounts as I can, and forwarding the accounts I can't.

I mean really, what the hell were they thinking?

"Hmm, 8 isn't doing so well, and a lot of people hate the UI, team what should we do?"

"Well, a lot of users use hotmail, maybe we should force a TIFKAM interface there, if they can't escape it they're sure to fall in love eventually"

"Brilliant geoff"

"My names steve"

"Not anymore it isn't. From now on you're geoff, and we'll keep on calling you that until you like it, because that's the microsoft way"

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Re: Hotmail veteran

There's an Outlook app for Android now, and I've got to be honest, it works way better than the old Hotmail one. For example, swiping left for the folder list and clicking it is much simpler than the old menu > folder list > add folder to sync bollocks that plagued the old app.

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Go

Yahoo veteran

I signed up for Yahoo email years ago, at the same time I signed up for a Hotmail account.

I abandoned the Hotmail account two weeks later and I've been thrilled with my Yahoo account ever since.

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Re: Yahoo veteran

Thrilled at being a customer at one of the most hacked email providers in the world? Hmmmmm......

Then again....maybe Hotmail uhhh Outlook uhhhhh Live.com uhhhhh DAMIT what are they CALLED now???....isn't all that much better eh?

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Re: Hotmail veteran

Use the stock email client. Set it up as an exchange account with the server m.hotmail.com.

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Holmes

Re: Windows 8, MS Feels *good*. Glad someone does...

We feel good that we've listened and looked at all of the customer feedback. We are being principled, not stubborn"

Listening and looking at does not mean the same thing as agreeing and acting upon it.

"Microsoft, you suck"

"We hear you saying we suck, and we've looked at how much we suck in our records... But according to our records, we don't suck, we're awesome and you're wrong so it must be you who sucks. Nur nur nur"

Repeat that scenario for every piece of feedback.

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I missed that second Wright quote in earlier stories.

And I have to say ewe-ee that's gonna leave a nasty scar.

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Android is not a saviour

Not sure why everyone assumes that Nokia jumping to Android would be a good thing?

Nokia were losing market share and profit well before they got into bed with Microsoft and Microsoft's subsidies have helped Nokia stabilise through the transition, Google don't provide subsidies or assistance with marketing budgets so Nokia would have had to struggle alone.

Also Android is not the Golden Goose, Sony's mobile phone (Android handsets only) are expected to post an operating loss of almost 38million yen this year and hopefully an operating loss of 18 million next year. ZTE has been posting huge losses for a while and has had to downgrade expected phone sales.

The only companies profiting from Android at the moment are Samsung, LG (they do include the Nexus 4 in their sales figures which isn't sold as a LG handset and aren't specific in how much help its been) and possibly Huawei, they posted a profit for the entire company but haven't stated their own brand smartphone sales separately from their other mobile sales. HTC are profiting but saw those profits drop by $170 million in one year so its not looking good for them.

With Android there is no safety net and Nokia needed a safety net otherwise it would stop existing.

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Android not saviour

Totally agree, android actually would be bad for Nokia imho, no support payments, no Nokia here maps via Bing etc meaning then that they could be relying on google for many things which are their bread and butter (mapping and location services) just because android has biggest market share does not mean every company should produce handsets for it.

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Re: Android is not a saviour

Actually, your missing a third company who are profiting from Android, Microsoft if all those patent agreements are anything to go by..

Wonder if Nokia's agreement with MS covers the MS patents? if they do, it may actually be less of a pain to do Android.

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Re: Android is not a saviour

and Microsoft don't make phones so what's the relevancy?

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Linux

Re: Android is not a saviour

True, but I was hoping they would have continued with Maemo and the N9.

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Re: Android is not a saviour

Likewise. Maemo was a great thing, but it suffered the problem Nokia always seems to suffer: every time they have a great thing they shoot it and re-invent it a week later.

If you could say nothing else good about Elop you could say this: he forced them to dopt a platform and stick with it. It may not be the best (personally I think windows phone is shite but others obviously disagree) but at least they're being consistent now. Consistency is what Nokia needed to supply, rather than Maemo turning to Meego-but-it's-really-still-maemo-underneath turning to Meego with a different packaging system turning to Meltemi or whatever they were doing next...

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Re: Android is not a saviour

Nokia managers managed to lose all symbian technical users and advanced developers (lonely cat etc) to Android.

People&companies in need for advanced, centralized security run blackberry.

Who will listen or believe them this time?

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Win8 & Nokia

Windows 8 is sooo much better than earlier versions I don't get why so many people can't see it. No start menu ehhh don't need it..

As for Nokia, I think they were handcuffed by wp7 which obviously was not what it should have been but wp8 seems to be taking some good strides. Wp8 is never going to dominate market share but I definitely think it is going to cement 3rd place in the mobile market.

41mp Lumia phone layer this year maybe will give them some clout :)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Win8 & Nokia

Personally not a fan of windows 8, I think TIFKAM is an abomination which was sourced from the vile exrement of satan, at least on desktops. For tablet and phone it's actually quite nice.

The problem is Microsoft are trying a one size fits all solution when it really doesn't work. Tablets and phones do not work in the same way as desktops for home users, which don't act the same way as desktops for business users or servers.

If it did work we'd wind up seeing desktop android and ios, but we haven't becasue they don't work in that situation.

This is purely my opinion here but Microsoft have continuously shot themselves in the foot. Each time they come up with an innovative new UI feature, there's been a large portion of foks who hate it. Not everyone, but enough to be noticed. So what do they do? Shove it down your throat, and if you find a way to avoid it, they change things so they shove it down your throat in new innovative ways.

As an example, the ribbon. First it was just in word so what happened? A portion of their audience moved to openoffice. All is well, oh wait now it's in IE, people move to firefox and chome all is well. Oh wait no, now its in windows explorer and a key part of windows to boot... No way to avoid it now. And since so many applications run on the OS I can't really change OS.

Metro comes along and they're doing the exact same thing, except this time it's a big enough change for more people to actively consider moving OS, if not to Linux then to Mac.

As a note here, i'm a long time mac hater, I think they're overpriced underpowered toys which about as much credibility as a desktop interface as beans have credibility with a roast dinner. And yet I'd rather move to a mac than windows 8.

And final note, why is it windows 8? Windows 7 was really 6.1 (vista +) and windows 8 is just windows 6.2 (vista ++) it isn't a new OS, it's a massive service pack on windows 7 which awas a massive service pack on vista.

Microsoft have become a joke, and not a funny one either.

*Not Eadon*

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Re: Win8 & Nokia

I'm not sure where the hate comes from. That sounds more like Windows - tough on reducing the causes of TCO.

Personally I would use Linux - if it was even 90% ready. Unfortunately as a desktop OS it is always aiming at a moving target, slowly, and falling short.

As a reliable dev environment on nicely designed hardware - OSX is excellent. In some ways it's a shame given that it's owned lock stock and barrel by a company which is moving towards a walled garden. I reckon I've got 3-4 years to move from OSX - the problem is there will be nothing I want to use.

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awesome!!

awesome memo on patent trolls!!

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FAIL

Outlook App on Android

Outlook on Android seems to have only one (big) font available with no way to change it.

Useless for scanning through the list of emails.

Even the default mail client is now more useable.

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Re: Outlook App on Android

I have used a Hotmail account since the mid 90's. Haven't had a problem with it, as I've largely liked or ignored what they have changed. I dislike being forced to upgrade (As the old app is turned off by ms) to an application which does not allow me to choose how I view my emails. No font size (the large font is ridiculous, cant see the full name of most people). It doesn't wrap emails, so I have to scan left to right. Its SO.FNUGGING.BRIGHT that I'm sure I'm getting a tan.

I am pretty sure that someone in MS User Experience Development is somewhat obsessed with being considered 'stylish', Forgetting that a quiet majority of MS customers simply want to do the things they are used to doing in marginally, incrementally easier ways.

Its not MS bashing, as a tribal thing. Its MS bashing, because they are doing silly things.

Also, I'm amused at how Eadon has become a minor celebrity. Well done!

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Re: Outlook App on Android

They don't even ship it themselves, it is another company. They don't even understand the concept of service vs software.

On the other hand, Yahoo seems to have a decent, official client which adheres to Android standards.

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FAIL

Should have done more - NOT

"It’s very clear we could and should have done more"

Wrong. They should have done less. Windows 7 is OK, given that it's Windows.

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Anonymous Coward

Interesting...

Lots of people complaining about MS latest efforts - all down voted. But nobody supporting MS efforts.

Come on down voters, some constructive comment please.

Also, GIVE ME BACK HOTMAIL!

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Unhappy

Re: Interesting...

Yes. I noticed that. I wonder if there's some astro-turfing going on.

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Re: Interesting...

Surely if you wanted a constructive response you should have posted something constructive to respond to?

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Re: Interesting...

The people here didn't talk anything with sense. That's why we're downvoting. No one here mentioned a thing that makes Outlook.com worse than Hotmail, other than personal-opinion-nitpicking aesthetics.

All I know is it's faster and cleaner than Hotmail on the desktop and the mobile web version works fine in Opera Mobile in my Android, with JavaScript and all. Much better than the lame ".mobi" era GMail UI Google give us if you ask.

My primary e-mail is Yahoo! anyway. Yahoo! knows how to make e-mail accessible in any device. While GMail had a poor UI on mobile for years we could open full e-mails with all the formatting in a new page or in txt format in Yahoo! Mail mobile, all the functions were there and navigation between the messages has aways been better with shortcuts in all the places you'd expect to have them, and now we have apps in almost every platform.

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"Faster and cleaner"?

What planet are you on? Do you live in their datacentre?

The old Hotmail interface loaded quickly and ran smoothly - except for the adverts, which I blocked anyway so didn't care.

The new Outlook interface generally hasn't even loaded by the time I've finished checking my Gmail mail, and I've lost count of the number of times it's sat doing the "dots spinning along" for a minute or two before giving up and saying its dead.

How much of that is shoddy web interface and how much is shoddy MS servers in Europe doesn't matter to me, but my experience is that Outlook.com is slow and horrible.

On top of that it is incredibly irritating that scrolling to the bottom of an email, then clicking the next/last button puts me at the bottom of the other email.

Seriously - WTF? I've not seen any other webmail behave like that, so it's clearly not a difficult problem to solve and I can't think of a single reason why the current Outlook.com behaviour could be desirable.

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Windows

At least it doesn't get (too much) in your face.

Its not my favourite interface and I even use most of it with Outlook 2010 instead of the web interface. I also can't appreciate that even despite all these changes they still haven't fixed the limitation of not being able to synchronize todo items between a Windows phone and Outlook on the desktop (all of that is also going through Hotmail / Outlook website).

But at the very least it's not as annoying and intrusive as Skype is. This week it finally happened: I can no longer logon using MSN messenger but only with Skype. Ironically enough I can still use my Windows phone to logon to MSN, which makes me believe that they're not going to shut it down completely.

Even so, I'm done with it and somewhat looking for another messaging option because I can't stand Skype and tend to stay clear from that in a 10km radius (which I assume is impossible, but you can't blame me for trying ;-)). I can't appreciate a program which immediately begins to try and persuade me to buy into a subscription or get "Skype credits". When I check my own profile? I get one half of the screen fully dedicated to a subscription model, even though I don't have nor want one. Why I should buy into a "pro" account, how I can upgrade, what interesting features I'll get, that kind of crap.

I'm quite unhappy with Skype and the only reason it's still sitting on my PC is because Messenger automatically installed it. Most likely I'll dump both somewhere next week and look for something less intrusive.

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Android Skype broken too

It is the first time I have seen Android text input went crazy, only on Skype.

Actually, using it since symbian s60, 24/7, it was the first time I noticed such a serious bug in Skype client.

Either they do it on purpose or they are being victimized by an internal conspiracy.

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Mushroom

Rule of Thumb

First off, I have an "older" email address (user@netscape.net) that still works (even though I have to use AOL.COM to use the web version).

In the consumer or service industry a single individual will tell 11 random people about a bad experience, but will only tell 1-2 random people about a happy experience.

If Microsoft even had 1 % of their user base complaining, we should be seeing MILLIONS of posts all over the websphere (Facebook, Twitter, Newsgroups, Forums) with these complaints. That simply isn't what is happening.

Just because a vocal minority is raving about the collapse of society ( no more Hotmail accounts), doesn't make the new service/product a failure. It just means there is a raving minority with nothing else to do.

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Re: Rule of Thumb

The thing about a bad webmail experience, is that users just leave.

They might set up a rule to auto-forward to the new account, but they might not.

Either way, people really aren't very attached to a specific email address anymore. They just quietly leave, and tell their good friends where they've moved to.

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Re: Rule of Thumb

No, it means most people have had the following experience in sending comment to Microsoft:

"Hi, I'd like to report an outage/share a comment/ask a question..."

Snippy person on the phone, if you can get a human: "IT'S A FREE SERVICE!!! WE'LL DO WHAT WE WANT TO DO!!!!!!" [hangs up]

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Re: Rule of Thumb

I service hundreds of home and business users and not one, NOT ONE, has anything good to say about the "Outlook.com" mail interface. These aren't just fucksticks on twitter running their mouths, they are real users. I get service calls specific to that, thinking that something is wrong (how can I get my hotmail back?), and I just suggest other services.

People who keep quiet usually just move to something else because they know it's futile to complain, especially about a free service. It's simply not objectionable or significant enough. I certainly didn't get excited about it, I just abandoned the disposable hotmail account I had (let Microsoft deal with all the overflowing spam). I couldn't be arsed to complain and I never liked really liked the hotmail service (though the old UI was OK) in the first place. I was just using it to collect feces.

"Of course it sucks, it's a Microsoft service" is a common attitude. It often just ends with that and a shrug.

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I am using Outlook.com under FF on Linux mint 13 i always have the same problem that it never opens emails on the first click, it registers that i have clicked as the little timer wheel spins but it doesn't open until i click for a second time. Its only this site that i have this problem with an its been like that for several weeks on more than one version of FF.

Only really use outlook as my spam catcher email address so its not a big problem but still annoys me

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Outlook.com

I really like the new look. I was an early subscriber to the modern UI as the old interface looked cluttered. I would like MS to change the login page so it fits in with what's 'behind the curtain'. I must admit, I tend to access my email through an app so the web aspects do not intrude too much into my daily gripes.

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MS Online Cloud anything

FAIL

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WTF?

if it ain't broke, let's be sure to fix it

So glad to hear others mourning the loss of hotmail. The new Outlook is cold, hard to read, a bafflingly hard to use replacement, and the forced nature of the migration was truly bizarre. Surely the genius techies could have figured out a way to keep the interface that many of us found far superior to gmail - "old" as it was. No one minds a classic car; why is it that tech is afraid of a classic interface? Now we need a new solution, and gmail isn't it, but Outlook is so painful to use that Microsoft itself will have achieved what Google couldn't - weaning us off Hotmail and away from them for good.

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2 possible plans to save Nokia

#1, the cheap one: buy Jolla & adopt Sailfish. It was Nokia code once.

(The alternative would be Tizen, but that means getting into bed with Samsung -- possibly not a safe place to be.)

#2: merge with RIM. QNX is brilliant, Blackberry 10 is excellent, but the hardware sucks. Nokia always made better phones. Run Blackberry 10 on them & they would be potentially world-beating.

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