back to article Pirates scoff at games dev sim's in-game piracy lesson

Australian games developer Greenheart Games has released a cracked version of its own product – a games business simulation called “Game Dev Tycoon” – as an experiment in education of pirates and their reaction to a game that tells them their software-pinching ways are evil. The startup outfit detailed its exploits here, …

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Most people probably downloaded that game last year when it was reported quite widely that the developers had seeded it on the pirate sites.

Finding out it was completely unplayable probably put them off paying for it, too.

3,000 downloads for a game that everyone knows was effectively given a legal pass to copy the crap out of? Yeah, I don't think the problem is piracy there, buddy.

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FAIL

Do you want to know what annoys me the most about Game Pirating? The fact that the same people who fall all over themselves to get a hold of a Cracked Game, are the very same people who CAN MOST AFFORD TO BUY THE !@#$%^&* THING! Rich kids, adults earning salaries well above 50,000 a year. For them, laying down $40, $50, $60 or more for the hottest games to hit the market, is just spending POCKET CHANGE! The whole Cracking thing began on college campuses, and you KNOW how much it costs to get into a good college these days! This is is a case of "Who is the coolest computer geek in the neighborhood?" The cool guy doesn't pay, he makes everything "come to him". "Hey, Mates! Guess what I've been playing all day?" And, then he turns on his PC and his chums gaze upon him with awe and respect!"

The lower income adults, and kids from working class families are stuck with waiting...biding their time until that hot new game comes down in price...and by that time it's old news. THIS is what makes me sick! I'm the sort of person who doesn't believe in stealing. Stealing is wrong, no matter how you look at it. So is deliberately destroying a person's business, putting that company's employees out of work, and making it all but impossible to find employment in that same field ever again, because you've also flushed the industry they worked in, right down the toilet. It happened to the Music Industry. People preferred going on line to steal the songs they wanted, rather than pay for them...thus assuring that the artists who made those recordings also got paid for their hard work. It's slowly happening to Films and Television, and more people download hot copies of books they want to read rather than pay for them. Games are rapidly following suit.

As I read in this article, ANY GAME can be Cracked. That may be the case at present, but sooner or later, SOMEONE is going to invent a system that makes pirating game impossible. I can easily imagine a kind of security program that activates when someone tries to tamper with the games programming, and totally erases all of the most important files. Voila! All that remains are a few scattered and useless files! I'd like to also like to see someone come with a security program that uploads an incurable virus while deletes those game files. Now THAT would be true justice!

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The reason a lot of people are rich is because they don't pay for anything...

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@LilCricket

Bullshit.

When I was young, and poor, I used to crack games (not just get them from others either).

As soon as I was earning decent money, I bought games.

Where does that put your little 'theory'.

"invent a system that makes pirating game impossible"

Only if it's literally individually coded to your DNA, and then you can give a copy to your clone :)

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Re: @LilCricket

Depending on the game I could think of some nice ways to kick Frank Freeloader where it hurts. Simply make some parts of the game require an external component, check the game ID and if it is an illegal/suspect copy switch to a version of the component that makes the game unplayable. Say in an adventure the merchant component always sells too high/has limited stocks and buys to low

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@LilCricket

Nice try, but you DIDN'T USE ENOUGH CAPITALS. Also, I don't agree with you.

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Re: @LilCricket

I'm earning good money, but I don't have time to play any games.

I wonder if anyone's tried releasing software without DRM lockout but with a moderately well protected notice that says "This software is licensed to Mr Robert Carnegie from Boston" or whoever has bought it. Then people aren't actually stopped from playing copies - and pirates don't make any money from it themselves - but you are pricked into buying the legitimate edition.

I suppose that the enthusiast cracker would still want to take the licensed owner name off it or change it, without thinking about the pointless wrongness of doing so.

It occurs to me also that the Netscape Navigator web browser was released as evaluation software with an unlimited period of use before paying for it, so hardly anybody did. This seems to have been really regarded as a joke, although you'd hope that some people really would feel that once they'd satisfied themselves that the software worked satisfactorily, they would pay. As it turned out: not many.

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Re: pricked into buying the legitimate edition.

Egosoft used to have an effective method of getting you to buy the game. No online activation or always-on bullshit, but if you wanted fast access to the latest patches, as well as access to tech support and the developer network, you had to provide your game key with your forum registration details.

Now they've gone all wanky and Steam-only though, so no more Egosoft titles for me. Oh well. Lost sales for them. There's plenty of other XXXX games in the sea.

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@LilCricket: You're wrong. Your entire post is wrong. I usually try to be less blunt, but there's no getting around it. The only thing you said that's not wrong is 'Stealing is wrong'.

Piracy happens at all income levels and ages. I don't know where you got that silly idea that only rich people pirate games, but get that nonsense out of your head.

While wrong, piracy is not theft. Call it what it is and maybe, just maybe, we can start to make some progress on convincing people that it's wrong. Keep trying to say that it's theft and the people pirating games are going to keep laughing at your sensational attempts to vilify them.

The music industry dug half their grave themselves. They had plenty of studies showing that if you gave people a legal way to buy DRM-free music online they'd do it over downloading them illegally and it still took them the better part of a decade to do it after Napster. When your own research says that people resent DRM to the point of refusing to pay for it but you ignore the research and start chasing away your own customers with it, you have no one but yourself to blame (Aside: are you paying attention Hollywood? You're repeating the music industry's mistakes here). (And for the record, my music collection had 0 growth during that time, aside from a couple CDs I got for Christmas one year). Some DRM is acceptable. CD keys, for instance, are non-intrusive enough that no one minds them. But this new crap of having to be online? I should dang well be able to play my games in single player mode when my ISP has an outage (which happens several times a year...my ISP is crap, but it's the only one in the area able to offer the kind of bandwidth I've become accustomed to).

There is no such thing as an uncrackable system. There never has been nor will there ever be a system that can't be fooled by someone clever enough.

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@LilCricket

<i>"...Do you want to know what annoys me the most about Game Pirating?..."</i>

No. Not really.

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Get over it already.

"The fact that the same people who fall all over themselves to get a hold of a Cracked Game, are the very same people who CAN MOST AFFORD TO BUY THE !@#$%^&* THING!"

That's quite a load. I used to do the pirating bit, when I was a student with essentially no extra money. Now that I make good money, I pay. Steam and Spotify are a great deal more convenient than trolling pirate sites, setting up the TOR connection, etc. If you put out a good product that's easy and convenient to use, people will buy it from you, as those two services prove quite well.

"This is is a case of "Who is the coolest computer geek in the neighborhood?" The cool guy doesn't pay, he makes everything "come to him". "Hey, Mates! Guess what I've been playing all day?" And, then he turns on his PC and his chums gaze upon him with awe and respect!""

Uh...I don't know where you went to college, but I sure don't recall that experience.

"The lower income adults, and kids from working class families are stuck with waiting...biding their time until that hot new game comes down in price...and by that time it's old news."

I quite often do that. I could afford the $60 brand-shiny-new price, but why? In a few months it'll be $25. I can find plenty of other things to do until then.

"I'm the sort of person who doesn't believe in stealing. Stealing is wrong, no matter how you look at it."

Sure, stealing is wrong. Murder, assault, and many other things are wrong too. None of those, however, are being discussed here.

"It happened to the Music Industry."

I hear home taping did them in. Terrible thing that we don't have a music industry anymore.

"It's slowly happening to Films and Television, and more people download hot copies of books they want to read rather than pay for them. Games are rapidly following suit."

Yes, it's terrible, isn't it? I turned on my TV the other day, and there were only hundreds of channels running 24 hours a day! Can you believe it? Only HUNDREDS! Those dirty pirates! And when I look through the Steam catalog, no one is developing any new games, either!

"As I read in this article, ANY GAME can be Cracked."

Yep.

"That may be the case at present, but sooner or later, SOMEONE is going to invent a system that makes pirating game impossible."

If you can do that, you'll be rich. Good luck with that. It's cryptographically impossible. You can encrypt a message to Bob in such a way that Charlie can't read it, but it is nonsense to say you want to encrypt a message to Bob in such a way that Bob both can and cannot read it.

"I can easily imagine a kind of security program that activates when someone tries to tamper with the games programming, and totally erases all of the most important files."

And then the cracker restores the backup copy from media that was disconnected, figures out how they did that, and cracks it to not do that anymore. Unless you propose some magical means to do this that would be different from just preventing the game from starting?

"I'd like to also like to see someone come with a security program that uploads an incurable virus while deletes those game files."

And then it gets accidentally triggered against legitimate purchasers (remember, no software is bug free), and someone's facing a class action lawsuit and potential criminal charges. You go right ahead with that. And there's no such thing as an "incurable" virus--at worst, you're going to wind up reinstalling your OS.

"Now THAT would be true justice!"

I copy something of yours, you deliberately break my stuff. Sure, that's a just and proportionate response. If I ever catch you jaywalking, would it be alright for me to burn your house down in retaliation? I mean, jaywalking IS against the law, after all.

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I agree - I'm glad I'm not the only one to have realised that surely it's legal if the copyright holders distributed it! This is riding on the myth that anything on bittorrent must be pirated. It's also interesting if it was widely reported that they'd done this earlier (do you any links for that?). Rather than "These people are pirating a game - let's slip them a version with a message", it's more like "Let's hand out free but crippled copies of a game, then accuse them of being pirates just because they didn't buy it".

It also means the stats are useless - we have no idea how much actual piracy goes on for a typical indie game. Similar to entrapment, the stats are skewed, because they themselves have raised awareness of the game by putting it on torrent sites, as well as providing a seed for it. If they hadn't, the pirated numbers may well have been far lower, either because no one knew about the game, or because finding seeds was hard. There are really three categories:

1. People buying the full version.

2. People pirating the full version.

3. People legally downloading the "cracked" modified version.

The stats only report (1) and (3), falsely referring to the latter as piracy. Either (2) doesn't exist, or is neglible after all, or the stats otherwise aren't accurate in what they report.

The blog suggests they even have a way to distinguish all three categories (because they both have anonymous stat reporting, and a separate ID for (3)), but they don't.

Did they get more sales as a result of distributing on bittorrent, or less as a result on piracy? There's simply not the information to tell.

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"over 3,000 are happily running the cracked version"?

Do you mean that 3000 people have downloaded the .exe, or 3000 people are actively playing the game?

Also; maybe they only sold 214 copies because the game is shit? I've not played it, but it's a distinct possibility...

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Meh

It doesn't look like a game I would even be tempted to download free, let alone pay for.

The novelty of the 'pirate' version seems to be its only notable feature, and I assume you don't get that in the pay-for version!

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Right up there with

Madonna's - What the F*ck Do You Think You're Doing?

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Indeed

Maybe 3000 people downloaded it because they heard it was released for free, albeit deliberately bugged, in order to evaluate it, before deciding it's shit and not buying it.

Maybe 214 people didn't and got stung for $6 on something crappy and formulaic .

In the real world, not every pirated copy is a lost sale. In many cases, that sale wouldn't have happened anyway, and in others, a sale is actually made when the downloader decides it is worth buying a legitimate copy. This probably explains whey people are so keen to download EA games rather than pay for them.

Really, publishers should bring back the days of the free demo, for instance, Diablo II had the entire first chapter available as a demo, and it is precisely because of this that I bought the game. Diablo 3 had no demo, just hype, and in hindsight, I might have saved my money, had I known. The cynic might suggest that the reason most publishers no longer offer game demos is that the games are of poor quality and derivative and when people see them, they decide not to buy the full version. In other words, if you offer a demo of a good game, it is a sale gained, and if you offer a demo of a bad game, it is a sale lost.

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The developer claims the game phones home (anonymously), so I guess the claims amounts to them saying 3000 people have played the pirate version at least once each

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RE: In the real world, not every pirated copy is a lost sale.

Ah, the "Have my cake and stuff my face with it too" argument. Whilst I agree that in the real world, as you put it, this it what happens - it's a method of consumerism which isn't grounded in reality in my view, especially with games where the value is often in the novelty of the product which starts to depreciate as soon as the player fires up their cracked version: and that doesn't even begin to touch on the actual market depreciation of the product itself, i.e. play now (RRP £30), pay later at bargain basement prices (£10). But hey, a sale is a sale right?

It boggles my mind somewhat what world people are living in where this pro-piracy argument makes sense - try walking out of a supermarket with a trolly full of nicked (read: pirated) gear and explaining to the bobby: "But it's okay, mate, if I like this stuff I might pay for it later!"

Nor do I buy the "cracked games are full demonstrations because vendors don't make demo's any more" argument in 2013 when YouTube will be overflowing with hours of "Let's play" videos where you can evaluate if you think you'd enjoy the product. Buyers remorse is not an excuse for self-entitlement to pirate.

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Go

To be fair

214 sales 1 day after release (read their blog) is pretty good going for a developer that no-one has even heard of until today. I'd be willing to bet that with the free advertising that this controversy is stirring up that they're getting a lot more on board. Yes - pirates are going to download it more - because it's easy and you have nothing to lose. If something is free, I might take it even if I only have a 5% chance of playing it later. You make me pay and guess what - I'll realise that I probably don't really have the time to play it anyway and it would be a waste of money. Difference is I won't be tempted later.

This game, which I heard about yesterday, ticks ALL the right boxes for me. No DRM - check. Free demo - check. Reasonable price - check. Reasonable use (3PCs/Devices per purchase) - check. Actively trying to support their product in a different way to bring pirates around rather than fighting them- check.

The only thing I don't like is their confusion of "piracy" and "stealing," but you know what - they passed all the other tests which is far better than the majority of developers - so guess what. I'm buying this - hell, it's the price of a (rather expensive) beer, which I'll happily donate to someone doing sensible in the crusade of finding a mutually convenient solution for gamers, pirates and developers alike. I don't mind supporting the game industry (sans EA) as generally, they don't get their kicks from sueing 9 year olds. Yes, they've made horrendous mistakes with DRM in the past, but they've been an awful lot quicker at finding solutions and learning than the dinosaurs representing the film and music industries, who really can fall off a cliff for all I care.

The pirates complaining that the game doesn't work is pretty funny, too.

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@Geraint Jones

"Also; maybe they only sold 214 copies because the game is shit? I've not played it, but it's a distinct possibility..."

looking at the pictures of it the game more then likely is shit

I'd be more than interested in knowing out of those 214 people that bought it how many of them previously played the "cracked" edition.

Would have been also neat to have a survey in the game for people that played the "cracked" copy to submit if they even thought the game was even worth the time it took to download(again looking at the screen shot I'd almost say no)

Use the ""'s around cracked cause technically can it even be considered a cracked game if a company puts it out themselves? I'd say it was more keen to shareware of the early 90s that would put out games that had some functions gimped to get you to buy the full thing, but for the most part they ended up sucking so bad no one would bother with the full version(kinda what I think happened here).

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Re: Indeed

"Really, publishers should bring back the days of the free demo, for instance, Diablo II had the entire first chapter available as a demo, and it is precisely because of this that I bought the game. Diablo 3 had no demo, just hype, and in hindsight, I might have saved my money, had I known. The cynic might suggest that the reason most publishers no longer offer game demos is that the games are of poor quality and derivative and when people see them, they decide not to buy the full version. In other words, if you offer a demo of a good game, it is a sale gained, and if you offer a demo of a bad game, it is a sale lost."

WELL I know for a fact if I got a demo for D3 I wouldn't have bothered with it. Hell I got a "demo" for Mist of pandaria(the beta), and didn't buy it after being a loyal wow subscriber for many years. Hell if there was a demo for StarCraft 2 WoL I wouldn't have bought it either as after a few hours that game ceased being fun.

To fight piracy is simple give people an incentive to get the legit copy. Blizzard used to be great at this with SC1, and diablo 1, and 2 as B.net requires a legit key to play on their servers. I actually had all 3 of those pirated originally, and I ended up buying them soon after as I felt the value was worth it(I've done this quite often). Now if I did the same with SC2, and D3 I wouldn't have bought them as I stopped playing those after 2 days (aka pissed money down the drain) as neither was fun in the slightest to me, and I've never touched them since.

It seems most companies instead of saying HEY WE MADE A SHITTY GAME NO ONE WANTS instead say OUR SALES DID BAD DUE TO PIRACY PIRATES ARE EVIL NOW LETS PUNISH THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY BUY OUR SHIT WITH DRM THAT IMPEDES GAME PLAY TO FORCE THEM TO PIRACY TO BE ABLE TO PLAY

I am also someone who has like 30 or so steam games, and regularly buy stuff I find fun, and will spend some cash on those F2P MMO's that have item shops. So no I am not some freetard as I will spend money on things I see worth it.

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How to make your game sound like empty, rehashed dross:

Put the word "Tycoon" after it. Once rollercoaster and Railroad came out, most of what followed was a fairly poor variation on an unimaginative formula.

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Re: How to make your game sound like empty, rehashed dross:

Rollercoaster Tycoon...a game written purely in assembly.

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Windows

Ahh..

"“Fact is that any game can be cracked, so all you do is spend time on something that in the end just annoys your real customers while only slightly delaying the inevitable,” he writes of DRM. “"

He finally gets its, but as the story last week about "Game Of Thrones" making beelions of $, despite being pirated left rigjht and centre demonstrates.

Truth is this. Make a product people want and they WILL buy it.

The 5% freetard clan, will have no significant impact on sales at all.

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JDX
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Re: Ahh..

Loads of people who would buy a full version if they had no other choice, would still pirate a free copy. That doesn't mean every pirate copy is a lost sale, more the reverse - people used to pursue cheap imports in the old days in the same way.

Those who simply want to pirate will not buy games, but many genuine would-be buyers are lost when a free copy is so easy to get.

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Was there a Demo version?

I like the concept of Demo versions of a game.

Too many times the pay-up-front-and-wait-to-see-what-you-get way of life turns out to be a loser - just look at the reasons why people pirate Hollywood movies.

With a demo version, you get to see if it's worth buying or not.

Clearly, this game was not worth buying (for all but a 214 people).

Besides, they've spelled 'Harbour' wrongly. Fucking idiots.

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Re: Was there a Demo version?

If the game's costing $8, it's not too unreasonable to buy it on a whim if reviews are OK (are there any?)

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Re: Was there a Demo version?

A demo version? Now that's an old idea that slowly died off! I'm willing to be proven incorrect but I'm also willing to bet a large portion of chips (potato in oil kind) that when a poor game with a demo was released the demo showed how poor it was and sales were minimal. Given how much money is being spent on some games the companies can't afford to lose sales just because their product is crap. Far better to have a bad reputation and money than a good reputation and go out of business, right?

There was a time when a demo came out first and then the full game came later. You're lucky to see a demo at all for any game now and even less likely to see it before the full release. Indie developers are really stuck and purposely releasing your own game as a pirated torrent to try and prove something or guilt trip some into buying the game must have sounded like a smart idea at the time. If you give me an option to pay for something or get it for free (legally) why would I want to pay for it? I don't have a solution, just my random thoughts.

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Re: Was there a Demo version?

Indeed, worked extremely well for iD software.

The demo for Q2, allowed you to play online too.

How ironic then, that that software house (iD), is one of the most successful and one of the first to embrace user generated content and open-sourcing.

Most true gamers, will always buy their games, because they understand the work that went in to making the game and feel genuine pleasure playing the game.

Pirates do it just because they can and more than likely stop playing their pirated game 3 days after installing it, so it's really not a lost sale (unless your business model is based on people only playing your game for 3 days).

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Re: Was there a Demo version?

Instead of a demo game, how about some sort of money back guarantee if the game fails to achieve a set playability benchmark on your equipment

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Not at all sure about piracy claims

Im probably paying more now for games than I did when I was a kid on my old specky.

From the gold ammo in free to play games to the new raft of "beta founders packs". I doubt I am anything special (much as I would like it to be otherwise)

From that screen shot all I see is something that would look crap in 1990. You would need to pay me to play that tbh

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Pint

A nice bit of marketing

I, and I'm sure many others, had never heard of this game or its developer before this "story" broke. I bet many of the 214 people who bought it also hadn't heard of it before the pirate release either.

I'm not going to get into what is good or bad for any media industry but I know for sure that I have bought many games, movies and TV box sets purely on the recommendation of a load of friends who downloaded it for free. Without that, I'd often never of heard of the TV show.

Beer, because pirates drink that too.

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Joke

I'm not a fan of Game Dev Tycoon

I'm more partial to "Call Centre Mania" or even "Eastern European Hotel Contract Cleaner For Below Minimum Wage Tycoon"

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Happy

Re: I'm not a fan of Game Dev Tycoon

Here, here! I'd defintely buy those!

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Missing the point

Maybe try making a quality game first, rather than a designed-to-fail "statement".

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Anonymous Coward

gamers and pirates

Are idiots, they assume someone else will buy it and keep the developer or artist alive.

When three is no content left to pirate they will wonder what happened.

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Thumb Down

Re: gamers and pirates

Yes, and home taping was going to kill the music industry...

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Re: gamers and pirates

As were player pianos!

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Mushroom

Re: gamers and pirates

Are you ever right on the money! The thieves have all but destroyed the music industry, TV and Movies are quickly following suit, and book publishing is also failing. When they've utterly destroyed the gaming industry, and they no long have their favorite pastime, they'll sit and wonder how it all went wrong, and probably blame it one someone else! Many game companies are already switching to digital copies only. Digital downloads contain tracking programs, so these companies will always know WHO bought their games, WHERE they bought it, and WHERE that game happens to be when someone starts playing it because you must log into the company's servers to use certain features within the game.http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/mushroom_32.png

EA used this angle with a couple of their Sims 3 Expansion Packs. You can't access certain in-game features without logging in to their servers.

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Re: gamers and pirates

On line downloads from thieves like Napster destroyed the music industry!http://www.theregister.co.uk/Design/graphics/icons/comment/thumb_down_32.png

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Re: gamers and pirates

and wax cylinders...

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Re: gamers and pirates

"Are you ever right on the money! The thieves have all but destroyed the music industry,"

I only wish they would. Unfortunately, you're talking a load of arse.

"TV and Movies are quickly following suit,"

Do you ever turn the telly on?

"and book publishing is also failing."

I guess all those lumps of paper in the local Tesco are a phantasm. Tell me, how in fuck do you copy a dead tree book without a flat-bed scanner, OCR software, good proof-reading skills and an OCD level of obsessiveness?

" When they've utterly destroyed the gaming industry, and they no long have their favorite pastime, they'll sit and wonder how it all went wrong..."

It'll never happen. Personally though, I'd throw a party in the fucking street if it ever did. The "gaming" industry (I assume you mean computer games, not gambling) needs to die in a fire, right now. Let some new talent in. People who don't feel like raping you for £50, for a piece of shit that wants to call home every time you turn the computer on.

"Many game companies are already switching to digital copies only."

Companies I don't buy from, and never will. Except maybe Squad, but then Kerbal Space Program is DRM free. So much for your next statement...

" Digital downloads contain tracking programs, so these companies will always know WHO bought their games, WHERE they bought it, and WHERE that game happens to be when someone starts playing it because you must log into the company's servers to use certain features within the game."

You sound like you're getting a hard-on just thinking about that. I personally think you're a little sick in the head. That or you work for EA or Origin making their shit DRM for them. Same difference, really.

"EA used this angle with a couple of their Sims 3 Expansion Packs. You can't access certain in-game features without logging in to their servers."

Haven't bought an EA (or Valve, or Ubisoft) game in years, and your apologist shit is the exact reason why not.

Played plenty of them though. You work that one out.

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Re: gamers and pirates

Home taping never was a problem. A single copy of a 60min record took at least 60min to make and the quality was lower. The resulting copy could be used as a "master" once more than the quality generally was so low it no longer worked. That's why limited privat copies are "accepted" and paid for by a charge on empty media in i.e germany.

The CD burner changed that. Copying became fast and even the 10th "generation" copy was still as good as the original. Even that was not too bad since it still required physical exchange of the media and was mostly restriced to friends/family.

The same was true for copied computer games. It (often) was an effort and the physical exchange reduced the spread. "Professional" sellers more often than not where tracked down after a while since there was a mail trace. Access to illegal sources was limited for most. Add in that many games had a paper handbook and it was often needed and the Web was not there and it worked.

Then came the eMules, Torrents etc. Suddenly it no longer worked. The games/musik where spread extremly wide. Scans of the manuals (and the manual on cd typically theses days) added more problems for the publishers.

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Re: gamers and pirates

"EA used this angle with a couple of their Sims 3 Expansion Packs. You can't access certain in-game features without logging in to their servers."

LOL! And they can't access the contents of my wallet as I will never buy any cr*p that tries to pull things like that on me.

Here, count those real lost sales!

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Re: gamers and pirates

The question is: How many real buyers are lost. If the h amber is low enough simply sticking it to Frank Freeloader may be enough for companies to go that route anyway

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Devil

Re: gamers and pirates

As was online porn - above traditional printed paper porn - said the religious.

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Re: gamers and pirates

well video killed the radio star but nobody is trying to shut down musci televisions....

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Devil

Re: gamers and pirates

can you prove Madonna or Michael Jackson is making less money due to that?

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Pint

Bucked the trend

.. and bought a copy, because well, everyone needs a little extra beer money from time to time, and I thought the piracy hack-job was funny.

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Re: Bucked the trend

Is it any good?

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