back to article Apple: OK, we tracked your every move... but let's call it a caching bug, m'kay?

Apple's lawyers have asked a Californian judge to dismiss a case against the company on the basis that no harm was caused by Apple storing detailed maps of users' movements. Apple has already redefined the case as a question of information storage rather than a privacy invasion. The iPhone users who sued Apple can't prove that …

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Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

So their documents show that they did...

Wilfully....

Despite being warned by the lawyers it was illegal.....

And overuled the developers who pointed out the off switch, didn't actually turn it off.

At least that's what I assume from them admitting they have documentation, but refusing to show it.

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Meh

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

Ah, but this is apparently "an attempt to discover harm" which they are allowed to refuse, rather than "an actual investigation of harm caused". Interesting. I'm now trying to work out how to paraphrase that into refusing to allow police on the premises even though they have a warrant, so I can straw man this. Obviously you need to cooperate if it is "an actual investigation of harm caused" e.g. lots of people testify that you sold them coke. But what situation would amount to "an attempt to discover harm" and therefore allow you to refuse to hand over material for investigation? You are seen driving a new flash car and going on expensive holidays, but still doing a 9-5 job on low wage? Would that fit closely enough to the above terminology?

It's all very confusing...

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Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

How about being pulled over for a traffic stop and the cop asking if they could take a look through your car? This is something I've seen on quite a few of the US "Cops" style TV shows, and I'm always confused when someone says "Sure" and is then amazed when the police discover a rubbish bag full of weed in the boot.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

At least they kept it in house.

Android users have to share their when out with all and sundry including the malware writers.

Not such a bad deal then when you see that!

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Big Brother

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

> This is something I've seen on quite a few of the US "Cops" style TV shows,

If they do that, they must first show "probably cause" and then "detain you" upon which they may proceed to take your car apart. Of course, "probable cause" these days amounts to their 40-kilo mastiff sneezing once ("it was the weed") and "detention" occurs through judicious tasering (if lucky).

Have a load of these commendable cheeky breekies refusing "access all areas" at the DHS checkpoint.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

So in The Register comments Apple -

Is assumed guilty

Is required to prove it's innocence

The refusal to provide evidence that may or may not exist, and which may or may not prove it's innocence or guilt - is evidence that Apple is guilty.

I'm glad actual legal systems don't work like this. We'd all be in trouble.

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@NumptyScrub

"I'm now trying to work out how to paraphrase that into refusing to allow police on the premises even though they have a warrant"

You can't stop them from entering if they have a warrant; that's the whole *point* of a warrant.

However (in the US at least) a warrant must detail the specific thing or things that the police are looking for. So I suppose if they showed up with a warrant that stated they were looking for something exceptionally broad (eg: "illegal stuff") or with nothing listed you could argue that they're "attempting to discover harm."

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Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

Wait a second...isn't that exactly what happened in Iraq with the US?

Iraq -

Assumed guilty

Told to hand over all Weapons of Mass Destruction

Ordered to allow UN investigators to look for them

Bombed and raided by the US despite no real evidence being found before or after

Good for goose? Good for Apple?

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Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

They might, they might not. It's a case of Apple isn't responsible for proving the other side has a valid cause of action.

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Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

Chad H and others above are correct. The point of the law is that people can't go to court and say 'I think The Ford Motor Company has been employing assassins to come round my house at night and move my bins; I demand they disclose appropriate paperwork on all contracts paid for in June so that I can check'. Such a system would quickly bring commerce to a halt as a million crackpots come out of the woodwork and insist on expansive document disclosure from every company they dislike.

Apple may be acting disingenuously — it's difficult to know without any idea what knowing the cost of documentary disclosure (eg, maybe the engineers emailed each other about it on and off for months; who's going to trawl through and find that stuff, and redact anything not related to the topic that happened to be in the same thread of conversation and is commercially sensitive?) — but the principle is solid.

I guess it's a bit like the idea that if the police can't prove you performed a crime then you shouldn't go to jail (although softer, because that's criminal and this is civil); the point is to prevent harassment by people (or authorities) on a fishing trip.

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Happy

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

commendable cheeky breekies. Fantastic.

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Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

This site is brought to you by The Chaebol Defense Alliance™.

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Meh

Re: So in The Register comments Apple - Is assumed guilty etc.

So that'll be pretty standard 21st century democratic jurisprudence then.

If Apple have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear, right?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

@AC - Typical iClone. Your phone is shit, the design is shit, the whole ecosystem is shit.

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Unhappy

Nothing is what it is anymore, everything is what it can be made to look like!

In fascist states, banks and corporations have all the rights and individuals have none.

We should have read about that before we let the TV lull us to sleep 50 years ago.

The EU has rules in the Lisbon contracts, that allow uprisings to be put down by killing everybody. Sounds identical to what Assad has been doing with much lamenting in the press.

Funny, given that uprisings are generally to be blamed on those in Power. When they get to legally kill those who are protesting, the U.S. and the E.U. are no different than Russia under Stalin, Germany under Hitler or Syria under Assad.

Nothing is what it is anymore, everything is what it can be made to look like

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"and is then amazed when the police discover a rubbish bag full of weed in the boot"

Yes indeed. How could he possibly not know it was there?

You would have thought he would have at least read the script, before taking on the part.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other

>> The point of the law is that people can't go to court and say 'I think The Ford Motor Company has been

>> employing assassins to come round my house at night and move my bins

True, but once assassins have been observed wearing moving every ford produced bin in production - than you may ask a court for discovery.

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Trollface

Hmm!

Isn't this the main reason people bash Android/Google and praise Apple because they supposedly don't track you!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Hmm!

Since the information was all stored on user's phones and not Apple's servers, Apple wasn't tracking you.

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Paris Hilton

Different rules?

So Cupertino can make 'honest genuine mistake's, but everyone else is culpable of constantly breaking the law and should be punished by multi $B fines etc.?

Oh, Man up Apple!

Paris, because Apple seem to have just as much clue as she does...

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Easy now,

if Apples lawyers would do anything but stonewall, they'd not be worth their money. Their job is to make the legal problem go away without giving anybody free information. Whether this is a smart PR move is another question, but they are not getting payed to do the work of the company PR drones.

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Re: Easy now,

So, the lawyers run Apple now?

Tim Cook loose a spine recently?

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Big Brother

Re: Easy now,

Oh, he's got a spine. He just doesn't give a shit about the little man. In ten year's time, this may well be very appropriate;

And on the pedestal these words appear --

"My name is Ozymandias Apple, king of kings:

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

Nothing beside remains. Round the decay

Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.'

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Re: Easy now,

"Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare

The lone and level sands stretch far away.'"

Ah, iphonely.

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A rose by any other name.

"Apple is refusing to hand over certain documents which might prove this one way or the other, because that would amount to an attempt to discover harm rather than an actual investigation of harm caused."

And their grandmothers never sucked eggs when using negative pressure to remove the contents of ovoids.

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So they are trying the Google WiFi defence

Opps, how did that get there?

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Re: So they are trying the Google WiFi defence

Exactly. Only Google is allowed to have 'accidental caches'.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So they are trying the Google WiFi defence

I bet Apple invented it and patented it, google copied it

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Anonymous Coward

If I were being sued for whatever, and I was ask to turn over possible evidence, upon which I refused, I would go to jail.....period.

So why is Apple exempt from the law?

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Because your bribes campaign contributions are much much smaller than Apple's

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Are you sure you're not being a bit vague about the difference between civil and criminal law? And possibly about the difference between disclosure (ie, when a party becomes aware that evidence exists) and inspection (ie, when you deliver that evidence that is already known to exist)?

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Google does no evil (tm)

At least Google didn't do anything like build code, infrastructure, hardware into their tens of thousands of cars that travel the world and sniff every single wifi access point and upload it to the borg and then get caught and say, "oh it was an accident, one developer did this, we didn't mean to create this database schema and capture all this data in this format and the hardware to capture somehow found it's way onto all those cars accidentally. It was never intended". Apple could learn from Google and implement Do no evil (tm).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Google does no evil (tm)

Translation:

"Oh yeah?? Well, Google is bad too. They started it! How dare you report negative news about my beloved Apple?"

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Paris Hilton

Re: Google does no evil (tm)

Thread hijack LOL!

Seriously though, why is Lucy Koh on that Apple case, too. Do they appoint work to judges in "famous company" equivalence class-sized bits?

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Re: Google does no evil (tm)

Where did you read "google" in the article?

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Terminator

Re: Google does no evil (tm)

"build code, infrastructure, hardware into their tens of thousands of cars that travel the world"

That can be traced back to the Rattigan Academy. Tracing back further might lead to an aborted alien invasion by dumplings with guns.

<-- Where's my TARDIS icon???

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Mushroom

Is it just me

... or are Apple and Google two sh***y, sh***y companies who cr*p all over their customers' privacy and whose every 'innovation' is valued according to its potential to increase the wormy holes being bored into their bodies and souls for the purpose of extracting their viscera and mental faculties?

I dare say it's just me and they don't think and act this way at all...

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Stop

If you think

That Apple is the first, or the only one doing this, you have a rude awakening coming. I'm sure they are as guilty as every other computer company, software company, or web browser company that exists. Privacy died with the invention of the personal computer. Your information has already been assimilated, and bought and sold like stock on the market, or bank mortgages. FACT.

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Meh

Re: If you think

"I'm sure they are as guilty as every other computer company, software company, or web browser company that exists"

Company group A: Hey, we've got some customer data from our business. Wonder if we could sell it or pass it on to the rest of our companies?

Company group B: Our business is appropriating as much data from mugs as possible by convincing them that's not our actual business. Products? Pah! The mugs *are* the products!

Hypothesis: certain companies fall into the latter category, but not all.

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Flame

No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

And I think it's fair to say that any alternative description would be the act of lying a**ed motherf***ers.*

*Legal term describing an organisation engaged in rampant untruth telling.

They don't deserve any better treatment than Google, who've done much the same.

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Re: No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

Somebody downvoted you, and I have no idea why.

You are completely right, but I fear that "Apple" stands for "American" to well off white collars. I know that might sound silly, but I believe that the entire mob down at the stock exchange runs Apple hardware, and runs up their market value. I know it does sound simple and naive, but due to that I think they will get away with it.

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Re: No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

In the eyes of this website's "journalists" and myriad Fandroids, Google is incapable of malfeasance in perpetuity, because Android.

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Facepalm

Re: No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

> In the eyes of this website's "journalists" and myriad Fandroids, Google is incapable of malfeasance in perpetuity, because Android.

If that were true, why even bother telling us? Oh, because butthurt.

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Re: No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

Shouldn't you be busy clicking on a few more ads?

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WTF?

Re: No. Let's call it "Tracking your every move,"

Uh? What ads? I don't see any ads.

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WTF?

"Apple's lawyers have asked a Californian judge to dismiss a case against the company on the basis that no harm was caused by Apple storing detailed maps of users' movements."

So, it's OK to drink and drive as long as you don't actually hit someone?

Right......

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I would be more worried about what Google does. They scan everything you do, your email, etc. They add code to their site to bypass security in browsers. To Google your the product being sold to its customers the advertisers!

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Happy

Explains it.

I always thought my abismal sense of direction meant I needed Apple Maps. Now I know I was creating Apple Maps.

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Coat

Re: Explains it.

Wrong on both counts.

Your abysmal sense of direction means you are Apple maps.

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TRT
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I actually preferred the infinite cache. I use an iPod and it's off the net most of the time, yet the location services always worked fine. Now, since upgrading the iOS, the location features are virtually useless.

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