back to article Linus Torvalds in NSFW Red Hat rant

Linux overlord Linus Torvalds has again vented his spleen online, taking on Red Hat employee David Howells with a series of expletive-laden posts on the topic of X.509 public key management standard. The action takes place on the Linux Kernel Mailing List, with Howell posting a request that Torvalds “pull this patchset please …

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Linux

Quite frankly.....

Linus Torvalds is quality! The coding world needs more highly opinionated lead programmers like this.

He's on the money with this rant, as he usually is.

Tux, naturally.

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Re: Quite frankly.....

Linus rants for good reasons, yes. He's actually quite reserved; I recall being in an IRC channel in the mid 90s when someone was debating kernel design with him and heavily implying that he was an idiot at every turn in a really remarkably condescending way. Linus conceded the point at issue and left.

After Linus left the other people on channel told the person who the user account belonged to. Some level of amusement occurred.

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Pint

Re: Quite frankly.....

Absolutely. This shit is the epitome of the rot that's infected the IT industry for the last few decades. Malignant mega-corporations trying to achieve global domination by fucking up the competition with wilfully incompetent "standards". It's infected EVERYTHING... protocols, file formats, interfaces, EVERYWHERE... even supposedly "open" "standards"... OOXML anyone? The WWW? This whole ask Microsoft Inc for permission to boot your machine(s) is clearly madness. Madness by design. No one in the world is able to come up with a secure method to authenticate a boot sequence which doesn't involve begging the Microsoft Corporation for its blessing? Yeah, right... and I'm the fucking pope.

Clearly the politicians are far too stupid/corrupt to do anything about it. Fortunately Torvalds isn't a malignant mega-corporation. He seems to want to just get on with managing his kernel, rather than be diverted into playing stupid power games and subterfuge.

<-- A virtual Carlsberg for probably the best manager in the IT world.

/Homage

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Quite frankly.....

Carlsberg? Really?

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Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Re: Quite frankly.....)

::Furiously uploading Lagunitas Brewing `Maximus` & Mendocino Brewing `Red Tail Ale`::

(Note to the Euros in the audience: Most European beer sold in the USofA (including the varietals that are actually brewed here in the lower 48) are intentionally infected with Methyl Mercaptin, aka "skunked". Not a nice thing, at all. Thankfully, we have some pretty decent brews of our own on this side of the pond.)

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Devil

Re: Quite frankly.....

Indeed. RedHat needs to sign it themselves and use the nuclear competition option if the manufacturers refuse to honor it.

If a manufacturer tries to refuse to honor a valid OS signing key by a valid OS vendor "because it will invalidate their MSFT compliance" then this is a competition commission/FTC matter. RedHat is both big enough to drive it through and "commercial" enough to have all the means and reasons to drive it through with the big four - Lenovo, HP, Dell and Acer. With MSFT history of competition violations they will end up paying another few billions into the "salvage nations with fraudulent accounts benevolent fund" before they can even say uncle. Either that or concede outright.

In both cases the end result will be MSFT scoring an own goal - creating an environment for shipping certified linux builds on par with their own stuff.

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WTF?

Re: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....)

"intentionally infected with Methyl Mercaptin,"

WTF.

That's the stuff they spike natural gas with so people will notice a leak promptly.

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Pint

@John Smith 19 (was: Re: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....))

"Skunk" is considered a good flavo(u)r in beer amongst hoi poloi here in the US. Sad, but true.

It's a holdover from shipping beer from England to the colonies. Bottled beer wasn't considered all that important in the great scheme of things, so it was stowed on-deck, in sunlight. UV skunks beer. Try it ... Split a tasty brew between two glasses. Park one in the fridge, in the dark. The other in full sunlight, but in an ice-bath to keep the temperatures similar. Taste after 15 minutes. Then after 30. Then after 45 ...

It's also the reason they try to make Corona taste good by stuffing a wedge of lime into the bottle ... Clear glass isn't conducive to good beer on a beach. I won't comment on that narsty "Fosters" crap ...

On the bright side, IPAs were begot from this horror-show ...

Beer, because some of us actually understand it :-)

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FAIL

Re: Quite frankly.....

So when was the halcyon age when data and format were easily interchangeable? Was it when Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, Amstrad, Apple and IBM were slugging it out in the PC market? Was it when EBCDIC and ASCII were used on mainframes?

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Re: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....)

Not sure what you mean by infected, but thumbs up for Lagunitas. Had it for the first time last year and loved it. Pity you can't get it in the UK

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kb
Thumb Down

Re: Quite frankly.....

Oh please! if he were any more full of crap we could turn the guy into a methane farm! wanna know why drivers suck in Linux? Linus "I'm too good for an ABI, even though BSD, Solaris, Windows, OSX and even OS/2 has one" Torvalds.

And if you want to know what this is REALLY about and why MSFT has HAD to go SecureBoot look up "Win 7 SP1 all versions" on TPB. The pirates have a version of Windows that PASSES WGA and most people will never ever know that version of Win 7 they got from Joe's PC hut ain't legit. they tried WGA, that failed, that tried just giving OEMs VLKs, that failed, now they are down to secure boot because every other thing has been hacked by thieves.

But I say if Torvalds doesn't want to support SecureBoot? Good, keep Linux on ARM and the one vendor (AMD) that has chosen CoreBoot over UEFI. If you think Linux is great then vote with your wallets, buy ONLY Linux hardware, and we'll see if Linux has enough of a market to be worth supporting. i have a feeling though outside the server space the numbers will be lower than the margin for error.

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Re: Carlsberg? Really?

Well, probably.

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Re: @John Smith 19 (was: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....))

Isn't glass opaque to UV? Hence no suntan in a greenhouse and the fact that you can engrave glass with a UV laser.

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Pirate

Re: Quite frankly.....

@kb - so what you are saying is that in spite of the millions and millions of legitimate licenses that M$ sells in a year, those of us in IT would have to suffer thru SecureBoot because M$ is worried about a few percent being pirated? Fuck that. The whole PC industry shouldn't be borked just because M$ is losing a few percent of sales. We've already had to bend over and kiss our own asses for years to keep M$ happy. If M$ wants to make sure all copies of their OS are legit they should port it to the IBM mainframe and drop support for PCs, then see how long they maintain market dominance. The PC world should stay open and usable. Not all of us are total M$ whores, some of us have real work to do on these toy computers.

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Re: @John Smith 19 (was: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....))

Depends on the glass.

If the glass has heavy metal in it then it blocks UV.

Glass used to hold potable beverages can't hold heavy metals... they are poison, and leach out of the glass.

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Linux

Re: now they are down to secure boot because every other thing has been hacked by thieves.

Go away you fucking shill!!!

WindblowZE is the scourge of the internet.

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Re: Quite frankly..... (@kb)

Even fifteen years ago the fantastic range of hardware that was supported by impressed me, coming from the DOS and Windows world, and it's only got better since then.

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Re: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....)

Lagunitas Brewing cO. "Little something" was my favorite beer of 2012

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Stop

Re: Quite frankly.....

So what you seem to be saying is that Microsoft went with secure boot for the private purpose of maintaining and extending an effective monopoly, designed their implementation to inconvenience or prevent use by providers of other operating systems (Linux is not the only one), and arm-twisted hardware manufacturers with the threat of second tier status for noncompliance.

And you are OK with that? Go away!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Quite frankly.....

@androgynous Crackwhore

"This whole ask Microsoft Inc for permission to boot your machine(s) is clearly madness. Madness by design."

Great rant, even got the facts wrong, so massively wrong, i makes the perfect ill informed rant we love here. Top mark for getting so many up-votes for your inaccuracy as well. I applaud you!

1. You can turn off secure boot, but Win8RT will not run without it.

2. x86 / x64 Win8 does not require Secure boot at all. So you can use Linux happily

3. If you want to run Linux on a RT machine, just turn off secure boot.

3. if you want to run Linux + 8RT on the same machine, you can use a work around...

Here take a look from Wiki.

" Canonical also maintains its own private key to sign installations of Ubuntu pre-loaded on certified OEM computers that run the operating system, and also plans to enforce a secure boot requirement as well—requiring both a Canonical key and a Microsoft key (for compatibility reasons) to be included in their firmware. Fedora also uses efilinux as a shim, but signs the kernel and GRUB with the key and maintains its own signing key."

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Mushroom

Re: Quite frankly.....

Generally, there's no need to buy Linux hardware (HW) because most HW is Linux compatible or should that be 'Linux just works' most of the time with most HW (can Windows say that?).

I like MS. I think MS did a lot for the computer world. Where Linux and X didn't make it mainstream, Windows did. I'd go as far as saying that MS has been good for Linux because it's ideas about usability and OS marketing have been the light many Linux distros needed. Saying that, I like choice, I like freedom and I like tinkering; it's now time for MS to learn from Linux.

I also like AMD and ARM. ARM is the future but for now AMD is good value for money and easier to make use of in terms of mobo options and OS options (though many Linux OS's support ARM).

Whichever way we look at it, we'll most likely be in a Linux-ARM world before the end of the next decade. I look forward to the future's cometh ;)

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Re: Quite frankly.....

Exactly right, and you can believe Linus spoke to him quietly first.

He only rants at fools who don't listen and this is a classic example of corporate dogs breakfastery from Red Hat, again, the Linus -v- M$ battle is long over, we won.

There is 10 times more linux in mobile and embedded than on the desktop, and since the Bosch debacle burned BMW, Mercedes it will stay that way.

I was a Flight Vontrol meetin in Dessault the other day and some corporate suite gor as far as "Why don't you consider M$ RT?" for 5 engineers to tell hime we don't want our planes to crash fool!

Linus is one of the best developer of all time shown not only by the gernel but even more clearly by GIT.

MFG, omb

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Re: Quite frankly.....

Actually secureboot is all about virus protection (and probably a bit about Microsoft making it harder for other OSs than Windows 8 to run on a machine).

it is not at all about pirating and does nothing to prevent it.

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Pint

Re: Quite frankly.....

No argument there. Making Microsoft the de facto keymaster at boot time is absurd beyond belief. Torvalds was being a bit too reserved here, honestly, no self-censoring was required.

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Happy

Re: @John Smith 19 (was: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....))

"If the glass has heavy metal in it then it blocks UV."

I did not know this.

I thought window glass was UV opaque but it's mostly sodium, calcium and potassium oxides, all of which I'd describe as "light," rather than say Iron or Lead (handy for windows on radioactive stuff).

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Unhappy

Re: Quite frankly.....

"@kb - so what you are saying is that in spite of the millions and millions of legitimate licenses that M$ sells in a year, those of us in IT would have to suffer thru SecureBoot because M$ is worried about a few percent being pirated? "

He is.

"The whole PC industry shouldn't be borked just because M$ is losing a few percent of sales. "

It's not like they have not done this before.

"We've already had to bend over and kiss our own asses for years to keep M$ happy."

And MS see no reason why you the mark customer should not continue to do so.

"Not all of us are total M$ whores, some of us have real work to do on these toy computers."

But you're not using a copy of their OS to do it.

The bald turkey dancer hates that.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @John Smith 19 (was: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....))

"It's also the reason they try to make Corona taste good by stuffing a wedge of lime into the bottle ... Clear glass isn't conducive to good beer on a beach. I won't comment on that narsty "Fosters" crap ...

On the bright side, IPAs were begot from this horror-show ...

Beer, because some of us actually understand it :-)"

Though apparently, in your cod science corner, you don't understand UV's reluctance to pass through glass.

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@AC 14:04 (was: Re: @John Smith 19 (was: Carlsberg? Eww! (was: Quite frankly.....)))

"Though apparently, in your cod science corner, you don't understand UV's reluctance to pass through glass."

Ever seen a "tanning booth"? What, exactly, are the light bulbs made out of?

During the meanwhile, my Spring Veggies are quite happily started in my potting sheds & greenhouses. All comfortably encased in your so-called "UV-proof" glass.

The mind boggles ... How can it be? Greenhouses are a figment of the imagination of growers, word-wide! There's no fucking way that plants can live behind glass!

I guess the only answer is "idiots abound" ...

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Bronze badge

Let's merge two EL Reg topics

1) MS Azure goes down worldwide because Microsoft didn't renew a Key.

2) MS wants PCs to check that bootloader code is signed with what is basically an MS Key.

Scenario: MS forgets to renew their bootloader Key. ^_^

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Terminator

Re: Let's merge two EL Reg topics

eek.

<- zombie pc

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Devil

Re: Let's merge two EL Reg topics

There are three scenarios there:

1. MSFT forgets to renew key

2. Manufacturer forgets or fails to update to new key as the key is in loaded into the EFI even if MSFT does so

3. The computer is bricked during the update. Hello Samsung, what is the size of a X509 certificate record write into X509 once again?

Eeeek...

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Re: Let's merge two EL Reg topics

Important point, when does their signing key expire and will the PC be bricked at that time?

Is that the whole point? If so, don't expect them, or the manufacturers, to give in easily.

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FAIL

If I were in Linus' shoes

There would be dismembered, gore-dripping, body parts lying around... His response to this crud is as measured as it can get, IMHO. This entire kerfuffle with regard to UEFI and secure boot is just a ploy to lock people into systems that violate their freedom and expose them to even more egregious exploitation.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If I were in Linus' shoes

For those who have to play the corporate tune, use terms like "business continuity risk", "lock in", "lack of second sourcing", "critical uncontrolled dependencies" - that will work because it spells either "risk" or "costly" - it's the only language management understands.

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Re: UEFI and secure boot is just a ploy to lock people into systems

When I first heard about this shit, I knew what was behind this nefarious move.

Microslop and its hardware partners trying their best to turn PCs into locked down appliances.

They saw how stupid sheeple bought into the locked down garden of smartphones, and realized that lockdown could be extended to PCs with some work.

It doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to see who the winners are.

And, of course, we all know who loses in this contest.

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Re: If I were in Linus' shoes

"business continuity risk", "lock in", "lack of second sourcing", "critical uncontrolled dependencies"

This spell does sound ominously powerful. With the slight hint of black magic.

Was it meant to be chanted before or after dismemberment?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: If I were in Linus' shoes

Definitely *after* the goat. Nothing works in a corporate unless there's blood on the table.

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Thumb Down

Red Hat still caring?

Not that I understand Red Hat, but why does Red Hat even care at this point, won't they go it alone and do what they will regardless? This might be wrong to state, but I think Red Hat just wants someone else to do their work for them, and of course reserving the opportunity for afterwards to say "At least we tried!" to the LInux community.

On a side note to induce conspiracy: Windows 8 isn't doing that great, and now Red Hat is professing they still want to make inroads with Microsoft? Reads as if Red Hat is trying to help Microsoft during Microsoft's struggling times. From the view of competition, this wouldn't of been too outrageous in 1999, but in 2013, when Microsoft is in decline....? I guess Red Hat isn't going to let Microsoft fail!

Is it too soon (or too late) to say F*ck You Red Hat?

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Re: Red Hat still caring?

"Reads as if Red Hat is trying to help Microsoft during Microsoft's struggling times"

I'm not exactly an MS fan, but I have to say that maybe everyone except Apple would kill to be in what you consider the 'struggling' position of MS.

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Re: Red Hat still caring?

Maybe. Theyre sat on billions but as far as i can see they are going nowhere.

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Signing keys, Linux?

I'm sorry, this just "doesn't compute". Sure, just include the private key and I'll let it go, but I doubt anyone really wants to do that.

The bug question: Is this needed? Not in my book.

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*sad*

I'm glad to see Linus active in the community but wish he would be a bit more professional. So Apple has Wiz and now Linux has him for drama. The first couple times people get concerned but after a while people stop giving a sh*t. Let the down voting commence!

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Re: *sad*

You mean, he is not a slimy, corrupt and spineless "business person" like your paymasters ?

Horrible, indeed !

I say, buy Chinese or British CPUs if that is the only option to stop the UEFI $hit. And don't tell me you actually need those 2.8GHz from slimebag-bribery silicon Inc. If you don't use these insane resource-wasters like Gnome, Java KDE, alternative CPUs will be 100% OK.

Here's a list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemote

http://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/devices/samsung-chromebook.html#specs

http://elinux.org/RPi_Buying_Guide

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Flame

The Perpetrators of UEFI

http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/dell-pays-65million-to-settle-intel-bribe-probe-8577

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Re: *sad*

OK, you don't like UEFI or locking in - that's perfectly fine - but to say nobody could use the power of the most recent Intel CPUs is just fantasy.

Have fun encoding video for days that could have been done in hours, or playing x86 compiled Windows games (again, if you need the power, these are the things you end up doing).

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Re: *sad* Let the down voting commence!

OK, you asked for it!!!!!!

-10000

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Happy

Re: *sad*

"[Buy] British CPUs..."

I would, but you can't get the valves for 'em - no Radiospares in the US.

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