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back to article Windows Server 2012 kicks ass: discuss

A little experiment from us: we are rounding up comments on a couple of articles - and turning them into articles. Some might call this stretching the material - social media types might call it amplification. But we think that not all of our commentards are mad - and many have very interesting insights to share. Yesterday we …

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Anonymous Coward

All very well for the non-windoze admins but

there are a lot of commercial apps that are designed and built on the platform so we are stuck with it, and without the luxury of a change of OS.

Server 2012 seems to have grasped what it means to be an enterprise OS, albeit with flaws.

Problem is, System Center, which is a big beast that manages the environment. This is a big change for some shops.

Doing things differently is usually the hard bit, regardless of Server 2012, or some UNIX/LINUX flavour replacement.

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Bronze badge

Re: All very well for the non-windoze admins but

Server 2012 is one of the very few options if you want a commercially supported NFS 4.1 filesystem...

Not as good as NTFS / SMB3, but if you are running a legacy UNIX estate, or VMware and want a remote mounted filesystem then its about the best option on the market....

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Anonymous Coward

And yes

Blatant content stretching etc....

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Thumb Up

Re: And yes

Quite. Whilst one can well believe that "social media types might call it amplification", personally I would suggest that regurgitation would be a better word. It's the internet equivalent of all the tedious clips-and-c***s talking-heads shows on the idiot box these days. Frankly, I'm surprised the apologetic intro isn't paired with a footer explaining that Simon Travaglia is on holiday. More please.

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Joke

@Harvey Trowell

Of course, the logical next step is to articulise[1] these comments too!

[1] new verb for the process of converting commentard input into ElReg articles that I just invented, patented, trade marked, etc.

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Lets rehash the same old crap.

Once again, for effect

Perfectly suited to solving probems that are already solved...

permalink from original post: http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2013/01/10/10_best_server12/#c_1687636

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Anonymous Coward

Oik, you lot there!

Bring me some popcorn. Ermagerd, new things are being tried! Have a bagel and chill out.

You'd think that trying new things was like to rile the masses or something.

Forward!

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I'm still wondering

What "Bronze Badger" is a euphemism for. Something scurrilous, no doubt..

Bunch of bronze badgers!

And where's the bronze coloured badger icon when you need it?

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Bronze badge

greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

Windows Server 2012 maybe great in comparison to older Windows OS, but still remains significantly behind newer Linux and FreeBSD Server iterations that retain more advanced and unique functions against the new Windows, and is a fraction of the costs to deploy, maintain and upgrade.

For example, latest Windows Server failed in all three critical tests for minimum reliability, flexibility, scalability and security for US and foreign Stock Exchanges "expansions and consolidations". The OS also failed evaluations at Cern, the famed Swiss research institute that very recently discovered the "God Particle". These entities chose RedHat Enterprise Linux.

Much more recently, in 2013 Netflix deployed FreeBSD Server OS based appliances to all the major Internet Service Providers to serve their tens of millions of movie downloads per week. Windows Server 2012 "literally died" under testd loads, and was considerably more flaky in regard reliability during the tests, not to mention security or scalability comparisons.

Why does 94% of the Top 500 most powerful super computers in the world (meaning 220 plus countries) - see www.top500.org info - run Linux and/or UNIX? One supercomputer on the list out of Japan was submitted for list inclusion with Linux test results, even thought the University/corporate project was financed and sponsored by Microsoft? The super computer also ran highly configured Windows - with Microsoft expertise involved - and could not achieve near equal results as Linux configuration.

Cisco chose Linux as Operating System foundation for their "Unified Computing" server families. So does Google, Facebook, Linked-In, Twitter, IBM, Fujitsu and almost everybody else who wants only the best.

We use the "exact same" features/functionality super powerful Linux and FreeBSD capability in our very small organization, at absolutely minimal costs and easy to use/administer.

So much for "greatness" of Windows Server 2012 - compared to Linux or FreeBSD super power!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

Linux is cheap. That's why.

The end.

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Windows

@Anderson

"Why does 94% of the Top 500 most powerful super computers in the world (meaning 220 plus countries) - see www.top500.org info - run Linux and/or UNIX?".

Most likely because these platforms provide those companies with the source code to the OS itself thus allowing them to tweak the OS any way they deem required so that it'll be capable to run as efficient as possible on those supercomputers.

Who knows; maybe to get virtualization more optimized so that it can run several Windows VPS's.

However, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. Because in general the goals for Windows Server lie on a completely different level. Sure, raw computing power counts too, but here there's more. When looking at the TechNet page of 2k8 (because its homepage has been replaced with 2012) you'll see traces of this: "With these operating systems you can develop, deliver, and manage rich user experiences and applications, provide a highly secure network infrastructure, and increase technological efficiency and value within your organization.".

There's more than raw computing power alone; management, efficiency, networking...

Now, whether they do or don't do a good job on those terrains is a bit irrelevant here; point is that Windows Server targets a lot more besides computing power. Most of all it doesn't provide features which allow a company to completely re-define the OS. You can tune and tweak it, sure, but all within the confines of the OS environment itself.

All of those are elements which you won't find addressed in top 500 lists such as these. So basically it doesn't really tell us anything about how great or bad an OS is. IMO it simply tells us that Linux and Unix variants allow for much more indepth tweaking.

Which I doubt anyone would deny.

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Mushroom

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

Linux is only cheap if your time has no value.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

You must have just got out of a Delorian.

These days Windows Server is way ahead of Linux in terms of functionality (for instance NFS 4.1, thin provisioning, dedupe, a hypervisor that supports a million IOPS in a single VM, a file server way faster than anything yet possible on Linux, dynamic access control (claims based and compound authentication), VM Replication, direct access, a much more powerful shell, etc, etc.

Plus of course Windows Server has ~ an order of magnitude fewer security vulnerabilities than commercial Linux distributions and a lower TCO in the vast majority of scenarios.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

"You must have just got out of a Delorian."

Hello again RICHTO

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WTF?

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

"These days Windows Server is way ahead of Linux in terms of functionality (for instance NFS 4.1, thin provisioning, dedupe, a hypervisor that supports a million IOPS"

Hypervisors arn't part of the operating system numbnuts - the OS runs on top of them!

"Plus of course Windows Server has ~ an order of magnitude fewer security vulnerabilities"

Now you're just trolling.

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Linux

Re: Linux is cheap. That's why.

Therefore Windows is a waste of money?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: greatness?? of Windows Server 2012

The Hyper-V Hypervisor is an installable option for Windows Server 2012 - and runs as part of the host OS in that scenario, as well as being available as a free standalone product.

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How does one update a Windows server?

I mean on Debian there's apt-get dist-upgrade. There is no packet manager on Windows, you'd have to upgrade every package manually.

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Re: How does one update a Windows server?

All the MS software gets updated through Windows Update. Some of the rest notifies you, if you're lucky.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: How does one update a Windows server?

I guess you must be running Windows 3.11 if you are happy with Debian...

On any Windows version from ~ the last decade, you can just run wuauclt /DetectNow to update it.

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@AC, the apt dpkg

So will update my Oracle server, vmware, php, perl any other 3d party stuff?

If yes, than you're right.

PS on a Debian system you do much more than just simply run "aptitude update &&aptitude safe-upgrade" or "aptitude install"

You can also do ,e.g., things like these

dpkg-query -Wf '${Installed-size}\t${Package}\n' | awk '

/(postfix|postgre|mutt-pa|emacs)/{s+=$1;print $0}

END{

printf "---------------------\nTotal installed size: " s/1024 " MB\n"

}'

Output:[1]

52 emacs

4336 emacs-goodies-el

584 emacs22-bin-common

57892 emacs22-common

8328 emacs22-nox

13268 emacs23

524 emacs23-bin-common

62384 emacs23-common

152 emacsen-common

620 maxima-emacs

948 mutt-patched

752 pariemacs

3488 postfix

14080 postgresql-8.3

15628 postgresql-8.4

188 postgresql-autodoc

4692 postgresql-client-8.3

4860 postgresql-client-8.4

176 postgresql-client-common

492 postgresql-common

64 postgresql-contrib

1692 postgresql-contrib-8.4

3820 postgresql-server-dev-8.3

---------------------

Total installed size: 194.355 MB

============================

[1]The code and pre are not implemented correctly

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Bronze badge

expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

The response to my comment from Anonymous Coward, saying "Linux is cheap. That's why." does not address, nor could that person or any other Microsofty address the Unix/Linux adoptions reasons over Microsoft indicated in my comment.

For example - Anonymous Coward, how do you address "facts" of Cern, and NASDAQ, NY Stock Exchange, London Stock Exchange, Cern, Top 500 testing results that "officially" have reported Windows Server less reliably, less scalable, Les Secure and less powerful than their ultimate preference of Linux or *BSD (UNIX)?

Another tidbit of technical information for Anonymous Coward:

Microsoft wished at one pointto "license" the ZFS file system from Oracle for their new "resilient" ResFS Windows 2012 . Why? Because ZFS (and Linux "BtrFS" file system) have functionality not available in Windows software - like very robust large Data Files "storage pools", drive hot swapping and backup, very sophisticated Cyclic Redundancy Data File Checking and other advanced modern features that are either completely absent in new Windows ResFile system and/or are severely limited or not robust as compared to Oracle ZFS. In the end, they could not license and therefore use these technologies since ZFS license Open Source which restricts or prohibits use by software license and policies of companies like Microsoft.

This, and other facts quoted in my comment have absolutely nothing what-so-ever to do with "cheap" or low cost or free, but everything to do with world class functionality, great performance (a la Top500), exceptional stability (a la Cern Particle Pysics laboratories) of UNIX/Linux.

Cloud services like Amazon EC2, Eucalyptus and OpenStack Cloud (collectively comprising about 90 plus percent of major Public and hybrid Cloud Services) have been "tested" to provide greater reliability, security and scalability than Windows 2012 based V-sphere Cloud serviices.

Please provide a sane, "factual" (very important) and technically accurate response if posting.

Those that cannot face or accept reality are doomed to live in confusion and ignorance.

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Stop

Re: expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

I notice that, like most *nix zealots, you ignored the detailed post which addresses your points and chose to focus on the troll.

BTW, I'm not sure what FUDD is. FUD is Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt; FUDD is presumably Elmer Fudd's XBox gamertag, and I'm not sure how that's relevant.

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FAIL

Re: expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

All of your examples are based on Windows 2003 and none of them even close to 2012. Next up, recompiling your kernel every time you change background wallpaper still sucks in 2012....oh wait...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

Those that matter disagree. Windows Server market share is growing and UNIX market share is shrinking...

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@RMisterBombastic

Next up, recompiling your kernel... still sucks in 2012

No, what really sucks is when you cannot recompile your kernel. Or can you on Windows Server 2012? My apologies, if you can.

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Re: expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

ReFS is a Server 2012 feature. It can't be used on a desktop or as a boot filesystem and is seriously crippled in functionality compared to straight NTFS.

All examples? I think not

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @RMisterBombastic

You have no need to recompile the kernel on Windows Server as is a modern hybrid microkernel architecture and can dynamically load and unload modules / drivers as required - unlike with legacy monolithic kernels.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: expect FUDD from Microsoft dupes

ReFS is a preview of the future filesystem - and is not yet a feature complete product. Microsoft has stated that the features of NTFS are coming.

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Meh

Re: @RMisterBombastic

And why would anyone want to?

Actually I don't care what server os they choose and if they recompile kernel or not as long as they would allow me to run OSX on the client. But I guess FreeBSD then would be the best choice.

Hmm, those who recompile their kernel, I don't trust them, to me it seams those always take the cheap shortcut to solve a problem. And if you use the term hackers correctly that is what they are.

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Re: @RMisterBombastic

Hmm, isn't even OSX capable of that?

How long is it for systemd (the imitation of launchd) get's deployed to all linux flavors?

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@AC

You have no need to recompile the kernel...

Of course, psychologically this is right: "I can't, therefore I don't need to"

Ok, can you compile any of the modules you load dynamically in that microkernel of yours? Can you compile the microkernel(s) itself? What piece of MS code at all can you compile from source?

The term "hybrid microkernel" is more of an ad term. Here, any monolithic kernels like Linux or *BSD can dynamically load and unload modules.

Moreover, you can compile a module against the headers of a given kernel, install it afterwards. So what's the difference? The difference, e.g., is that only .4% of top 500 supercomputers can afford to run this Windows microkernel.

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@t.est

And why would anyone want to?

Why would you need a personal automobile, take a train, trolley, bus, sub/tube, bike.... Why? You might wanna test some new features that are not in the generic kernel yet, turn off a module, make a kernel smaller and faster, so it wouldn't probe for some hardware. Tons of reasons.

But I guess FreeBSD then would be the best choice.

FreeBSD is a wonderful OS, you can recompile it. However, its development is not as active as Linux'. As a consequence, it usually not a choice on the top 500 supercomputers.

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Anonymous Coward

Re - not all of our commentards are mad

gee, guys, that's the kindest thing anyone's said about me all year

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Anonymous Coward

Powershell is the single biggest step back in all of this. Would you like to double click an icon and open up a GUI control app or manually type a 472 character command string that if mistyped can bugger up your server?

Windows server should provide me with a stable base core OS that I can add or remove any program I want (Including IE, IIS and the rest). Instead it comes loaded with all sorts of crap that many people will never use and cannot remove. All of this extra unused code needs to be patched and maintained and because we cannot take it out there is always potential vulnerability vectors.

Elegance is always on the opposite side of the room from any Microsoft Product.

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Anonymous Coward

Almost nothing comes installed by default on Server 2012 other than the bare OS. The default install doesn't even have a GUI.

nb - Power shell is significantly more powerful than any UNIX shell option. All common commands have abbreviations

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Pint

To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft corporate web servers still run on UNIX. If Microsoft cannot trust their own OS using IIS to run their own public facing web site, then why should I?

Gentlemen, it is now Pub O'clock. Have a decent weekend.

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FAIL

You are mistaken

Microsoft.com HTTP Header Server: Microsoft-IIS/8.0.

Nice try though.

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Windows

Hmm...

When reading my comment again (nice to be addressed) I do think I should check on the length of my posts. I have to admit that I sometimes allow myself to get carried away a bit ;-)

Even so, not much to discuss here IMO; all has been said already, I do wish to stress out that I don't dislike PowerShell in any way, quite the opposite in fact. IMO PowerShell is one of the best admin tools Microsoft has come up with in the past few years. My main gripe sits with 3.0 (WinRM).

But I finally came to my senses and realized that it came with an update, an optional one at that. So; after uninstalling KB2506143 from Windows 7 all is right with my PowerShell again and I can finally get some decent work done once more.

When I check my 3 Windows boxes (Win7 & 2 Win2k3 servers) for errors in the eventlog I merely use:

gel -ComputerName win7,magi,macron -LogName system -EntryType Error -Newest 10

(that's -com<tab>, -lo<tab>, -en<tab> and -new<tab>)

And the best thing about PowerShell aliases; they are aliases in every way.

SO using help (get-help, man, whatever) on that 'gel' alias will also get you the full help for the command it symbolizes. In this case Get-EventLog.

...on my box that is. If you want the same: "New-Alias -Name gel -Value Get-EventLog".

"notepad $profile" and put it in there ;-)

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server 2012

WS 2012 proves if you swing the club enough times on the range you are bound to catch one square eventually. The last 4+ months have been a disaster for Microsoft product wise but it does sound like they hit it out of the park with this product.

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Stop

Enough, already

I haven't used Server 2012, but I have used 2008 R2, and I've found it to be robust and stable, and much easier to configure and use than any version of *nix, so I'm guessing that Microsoft has done some good work enhancing those qualities with 2012.

Note that I say this as someone who has deployed various flavors of Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris over the years. I recall very well Microsoft's dirty tricks. Nonetheless, I'm willing to sing the praises of Windows as it now runs because it meets my needs and the needs of the business I support.

Finally, I'm entirely fed up with this knee-jerk fanboy mentality in the technology. Maybe you should try judging technology on its actual merits instead of engaging in childish my-sideism. Eadon, I'm looking at you.

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Re: Enough, already

> Maybe you should try judging technology on its actual merits instead of engaging in childish my-sideism.

To be fair, many who post here do, although...

> Eadon, I'm looking at you.

...word.

Congrats to the reg on quoting (feeding) this sodding troll - twice - in an article. Nice one.

Slow Tony Blair/Womens Institute handclap.

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Re: Enough, already

...and much easier to configure and use than any version of *nix

Note that I say this as someone who has deployed various flavors of Linux, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Solaris over the years.

You forgot to add NetBSD, DragonflyBSD, AIX and HP-UX for completeness, anyways, hearing these two phrases together makes me remember a story. When D. Hilbert, a greatly revered mathematician, learned that one of his students have dropped Math to become a poet, he allegedly said: "Good..he didn't have enough imagination for Mathematics."

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Madness with Windows supporters

Have you Microsoft folfs gone mad? Why is that not one of the commenters: ShelLuser, Anonymous Coward Tom Maddox and misterbombastic.

I gave a list of (repeat for last time) "all" the Stock Exchanges in USA and Internationally, Cern Particle Physics Laboratory in Switzerland the God Particle folk, IBM with Watson Computer - won Jeopardy game Winner, Top500 Super computers, Cisco Unified Computing, Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, Twitter. They all have reported and documented superiority of RedHat Enterprise Linux, Suse Enterprise Linux and FreeBSD in categories of reliability, flexibility, performance, scalability, security (very critical area) and lower Total Cost of Ownership than any, repeat any iteration of Windows, including Windows Server 2003, 2008/2008R2 and very recently for Financial Services firms evaluations of 2012.

In all those areas, not just HPC in regard Top500, all. Look up London Stock Exchange statements about "getting a divorce from Microsoft Windows" and why. Look up Netflix's decision to use FreeBSD apliances over any consideration of Windows for streaming millions of movies each week. Look up IBM decision to not consider Windows under any corcumstances for the Watson Super Computer Project Jeopardy Game challenge, Look up NASA's decision to use Linux over Windows for Mars Curiosity Mission, Look up why Cern never considered Windows over Linux for ther Particle Physics "God Particle" project. Look up if you can, reasons the US Department of Energy laboratories - Lawrence Livermore, Brookhaven Labs, Fermi Labs and others have only considered Linux and *BSD against Windows for major research even up to today. Look up why Cisco chose Linux over Windows for standard OS of their "Unified Computing" servers.

I could provide many more references from all over the USA and all over the world on selection of UNIX/Linux over Windows for all types of technical reasons, but if you cannot absorb

and accept the truth and reality, what's the point.

You guys are living in la la land.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Madness with Windows supporters

Facts being what they are... New York Stock Exchange uses SQL which runs on... da da daaaa. Windows Server. Look it up on that interweb of yours.

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Pint

Re: Madness with Windows supporters

You're frothing at the mouth W. Have a beer and settle down, as per my comment on the main page.

I will point out that Server 2012 is a remarkably different product to 2008 and earlier (unlike Win8 which isn't much different from Vista/7), and only one of your references even evaluates it. Yes, Windows is vanishingly rare in the HPC world, no news there. It has a bucketload of useful corporate/enterprise features though, which are a different thing entirely that you're cheerfully ignoring. Perhaps by Server2012r2 or so it'll be more generally useful; perhaps not. It'll have to earn its position, anyway.

I can't find that "Financial Services firms evaluations of 2012" you mention, btw - can you cite? Ta.

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Re: Madness with Windows supporters

"New York Stock Exchange uses SQL........"

First hit on Google !

How Linux Mastered Wall Street

www.pcworld.com/article/.../how_linux_mastered_wall_street.html

"NYSE Does Linux

The largest exchange, the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) Euronext, is run on a Linux system that can generate 1,500,000 quotes and process 250,000 orders every second, offering acknowledgments of each transaction within two milliseconds. "

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Madness with Windows supporters

So your examples are a) internet companies - the one area where windows is known to have a higher TCO, b) several bitter Microsoft rivals, and c) research / science - where the collaborative and accessable nature of open source is hardly a surprise to be popular.

How about most of the military that run Windows for pretty much everything including command and control systems - that's what you call mission critical! Or the thousands of ERP, SAP, datawarehouse and midrange migrations from UNIX to WIndows over the past few years - and the many many migrations from UNIX based databases to SQL server?

To claim that RedHat Enterprise Linux and Suse Enterprise Linux have better security is simple laughable. They have more holes than Swiss cheese - an order of magnitude more security holes than Windows Server - and are several times more likely to be hacked:

http://www.zone-h.org/news/id/4737

For instance Twitter that you mention - only this week got hacked to shreds.

As per a number of studies, the TCO of Windows is historically lower for pretty much anything other than webhosting. However even that now likely is cheaper on Server 2012 as some attention has been given to that area.

People better qualified than you are chosing Windows server on a daily basis - hence why Windows Server market share is growing and UNIX is shrinking:

Q4, 2012:

"Quarterly Windows server hardware revenue totalled $6.2 billion representing 51.1% of overall quarterly factory revenue, up 1.6 points over the prior year's quarter. This is the second time in the past three quarters that Windows has been responsible for driving more than half of all server spending worldwide."

"Unix servers experienced a revenue decline of 14.2% year over year to $2.1 billion representing 17.3% of quarterly server revenue for the quarter, the lowest percentage of server spending in more than 10 years."

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Madness with Windows supporters

"So your examples are a) internet companies - ....."

Morning RICHTO

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Silver badge

Re: Madness with Windows supporters

"People better qualified than you are chosing Windows server on a daily basis"

People better than you are chosing Linux servers on a daily basis .... Fixed.

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