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back to article Plunging BT sales hit every branch of the biz on way down

BT reported to the City this morning a total revenue fall of 6 per cent for the national telco's final three months of 2012. It said sales, excluding specific items relating to "regulatory decisions" on historic Ethernet pricing, hit £4.5bn during the period, down from £4.77bn a year earlier. Adjusted pre-tax profit climbed 7 …

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Anonymous Coward

I hope they turn it around, I know this might not be popular but BT are a great company.

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Trollface

Bad troll, bad troll!

Go to your box!

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Alert

well, kinda

If you can get through to the tech guys they are the salt of the earth, best in the business.

Their sales people, on the other hand, - if you can get through at all - 20 mins is not uncommon - are half-deaf, disconsolate, script-driven automata with the attention span of elderly goldfish.

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"The continued impact of regulatory price changes reduced revenue"

...in other words:

"consumers were paying too much, we didn't want to lower our prices, but the regulator forced us to."

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@FanMan

I would up-vote you, but I have never got through to a human at BT in under 40 minutes. I have seen a BT engineer sitting in his van for 45 minutes waiting for his boss to answer the phone. Once I do get through, the rep says I should have called a different number. An hour later I can talk to a rep on the other number and find out I should have called the first number. While this lunacy persists, I consider BT the supplier of last resort.

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Small print

Let me correct that:

I hope they turn it around, I know this might not be popular but BT are a great* company.

* for 3 months, then crap thereafter. Plus line rental.

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Happy

*claps*

you are a brave man and i applaud this. BT are indeed, a great company. sure they have problems, but name one other company of comparable size that doesn't.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: *claps*

Much of the dislike seems to be based on them refusing to sell high speed broadband at a loss in areas where there's little demand. The absence of anyone else diving in to grab a share of that loss-making market is then seen as evidence of a monopoly.

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Re: "The continued impact of regulatory price changes reduced revenue"

Lowered their prices? The problem is that they raise their line rentals and make you pay for a "package" whether you want one or not. I jumped ship to Primus.

And then they fart about with fibre to the cabinet. Give me fibre to the premeses at a sensible price and I might be interested.

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Unhappy

Re: *claps*

Oh I do wish they would stop bleating on about it - The quid pro quo for BT maintaining a monopoly position through Openreach is that they have a duty to supply 'loss making' connections. Remember this is a business built over many many years as a public service using public money sold for a fraction of it's value to the private sector

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Mushroom

Re: *claps*

No, its because they are shit. They have utterly lost touch with their customer base, increasingly the only engineers left are the ones that dont have a clue and they continue to bleat and whine about EVERYTHING while still treating theyir customers with complete and utter contempt.

No I dont like them, but having cost me £1000s through complete ineptitute I think I'm entitled to.

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FAIL

Well, OpenReach can't deliver a phone line to 50 residences, including me, in the middle of London in 2 and a half months, so I'm not shedding any tears.

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Facepalm

Re: @FanMan

It's always been a puzzle to me why phone companies are so bad at doing business on the phone rather than giving customers a better example.

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Re: Small print

I think you meant a company that grates.

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Re: *claps*

They're also known for pulling stunts to discourage (or prevent) outfits from rolling out broadband where BT is the only supplier (or there is no BB supplier) in order to hold onto the ability to charge higher prices in those areas.

ie: They'll say an area's uneconomic until the cows come home, but if anyone else starts offering radio or other bb services in the area that tune suddenly changes.

The classic example of this is what happened in Ewhurst, Surrey. After killing an eu-funded rollout which was already underway they then took another 2 years to do the job themselves.

That's after bankrupting a couple of microwave BB providers in surroudning areas (Forest Green, Ockley and others) by rolling out ADSL on an emergency basis when the rival companies had established there was a market and annouced availability of services.

That anticompetitive behaviour, by the way, is why FTTC rollouts suddenly hang and start taking far longer than originally announced. OFT say they've taken note of my concerns but they fail to see that there is market distortion going on.

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Re: *claps*

The only way to force BT to play fair with Openreach would be a 100% split - Separate shares, BoD and Exectives - as happened in Australia and NZ. Chinese walls have a lot of leaks in them, starting with the big BT logos on vans notionally operated 100% independently of the parent company.

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Re: @FanMan

"we're the phone company. We don't care. We don't have to" (Lily Tomlin, SNL, sometime in the 80s)

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Churn

>>the company said that it had added 122,000 broadband customers during the quarter <<

No indication of the churn rate though, which is actually a more important indication of the way things are going. It's inevitable that they will lose customers due to company movements, closures etc; but they should also be looking in more depth at where and why they lose out.

Is it just people taking advantages of new deals, or is it more a case that people move because of poor service? (as in my case) It costs a lot more to get a new customer than it does to retain an existing customer; this is an old adage, but still very true. I supoose that being very cynical, I shouldn't be surprised that marketing people seem to forget this, but I do still find it astonishing.

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Re: Churn

The churn rate with BT broadband would be interesting, as I suspect that the majority of churn would be between BT Retail over Openreach ADSL and third-party ISP over Openreach ADSL ... So whilst not good, not as bad as churning from Vodafone to Three for example.

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Please........

....can we have broadband only lines. I'm fed up paying for landline usage that I don't use.

Just bundle the whole thing together and switch off the voice calls.

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Re: Please........

You are assuming that if they did offer data-only lines, that they would use less equipment to justify a rebate.

The cost of provisioning the service from your home to the exchange would be the same, most if not all of the stuff at the exchange would be the same, and from the exchange to the rest of the network is all IP now for both voice and data anyway, so again would be the same. There would not be much of an equipment saving.

Bundling it all together is pretty much what they do. The line rental that I think you may be complaining about is not the cost of the voice service, it's the cost of connecting your house to the exchange. This is necessary whether you use voice, voice and data, or data only.

Why not just use their Unlimited Broadband package, and not plug in a phone? The only bit you would be 'saving' on by not using it would be the free weekend calls, and bearing in mind that voice traffic bandwidth was traditionally low over the weekend (so is low cost to BT), it is unlikely they would offer much of a rebate anyway, so how much do you think you would save?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Please........

"from the exchange to the rest of the network is all IP now for both voice and data anyway"

No it's not. Voice is still TDM with SDH transmission between nodes. Only 4G mobile networks use IP for Voice in the UK, everything else is one flavour or another of TDM. BT offers IP interconnect for other operators at the trunk layer, but that's converted to TDM when it gets into the network.

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Re: Please........

The voice backbone was converted to ATM (IP) over fibre with the introduction of BTs 20th century network (20CN). The 21CN backbone is now well under way - replacing the ATM circuits (Which replaced the TDM/SDH circuits).

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Re: Please........

If you don't plug in a phone and never make any evening & weekend calls you will suddenly find that you are being billed for your "free evening and weekend calls" facility, due to not having made any.

BT suck.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Please........

"The 21CN backbone is now well under way"

Really?

21CN for voice and broadband was rolled out with massive publicity a few years back.

21CN for broadband continues, but wasn't the megaprogramme for 21CN voice abandoned (with very little publicity) a couple of years back, after connecting a negligible number of customers?

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Re: Please........

>can we have broadband only lines.

I seem to remember BE (?) offering a line that didn't reserve a phone 'channel' and used the full bandwidth of the line for ADSL on the basis that voice was rarely used, so most of the time line capacity was being wasted. However, they did supply a VoIP phone.

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Stop

Re: Please........ [re. data only connection]

"The cost of provisioning the service from your home to the exchange would be the same, most if not all of the stuff at the exchange would be the same, and from the exchange to the rest of the network is all IP now for both voice and data anyway, so again would be the same. There would not be much of an equipment saving."

Well you wouldn't need to provide dial tone, support LD and DTMF dialling, number translation, ring tone, call set-up and clear-down, call billing ... you wouldn't even need a directory number.

Incidentally I think BT still has a light user tariff but you can't have it with broadband.

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Re: Please........

If you try and save as much as possible by paying annual line rental upfront, they then charge you for NOT making calls...

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Re: Please........ @lallabalalla

Your not being billed for it seperately, so you are only paying an unquantifiable amount for it.

My assertion is that as BT provide it by using otherwise unused spare capacity at weekends, it costs them effectively nothing to include, and they are unlikely to ever offer a package at lower cost that does not have this particular feature. They may offer a data only package, but I bet it would work out the same.

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Re: Please........ @Roland6

Normal ADSL services uses frequencies well above voice. As a result, I don't think that their service would have provided any enhanced bandwidth, other than there being no need to install microfilters which may make a slight difference to the signal strength.

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Re: Please........ [re. data only connection] @This Side Up

And the cost of all of these physical things..... very little (probably a single electronics module, provisioned in bulk, which would probably be installed anyway even if they did offer a data only service). Anything that is shared or managed centrally (like call-set up, breakdown and billing) would not be any different.

Your argument goes back to old fasioned exchanges (pre System X) where things like ring and dialtone generators were seperate pieces of hardware shared between a small numer of telephone lines.

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Headmaster

@Myself

Bollocks. That shoud read "You're", not "Your".

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Please........

Compare the price of Virgin "Broadband Only" to the bundles, you'll see that it doesnt save you much due to using almost the same equipment, bandwidth etc

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They have a virtual monopoly, of course they (the monopoly) will it turn round.

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Boffin

This is good news, surely, not bad ??

Now, let me work that one out. Turnover goes from 4.77bn to 4.5bn, pre-tax profit goes from 628m to 675m

So net profit margin goes from 13% to 15%. Remind me again of that phrase. Oh yes - "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity...."

Seems good news to me, not bad.

Unless, of course, you're trying to bounce the regulator into doing something to help you continung shaft your competitors and customers. Shurely not.....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: This is good news, surely, not bad ??

Shares up 5% this morning so the market think it's good news.

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Anonymous Coward

A business growing profits in troubled times...

...and the market reacts positively (shares up 5% today, up 50% in 18 months).

Sorry, what was the bad news for BT here?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A business growing profits in troubled times...

Yes .... story on the financial pages is more along the lines of "BT beats forecasts and profits are up"

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Danegeld** ... How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. :-)

Regarding that phrase you reminded us of, Mike Pellatt …. Remind me again of that phrase. Oh yes - "Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity…." …. one should never forget and realise that profit is money for nothing and therefore an expense and liability rather than a valuable indicator of real and substantial sustainable worth?* And that is a crazy sanity and quite perverse situation to drive one mad and/or anyone clever and smart enough to search for a handle on leverage which will ensure sanity prevails and one profits from ITs control of such madness in a epic comedy and sad rad parody blighting life. Methinks then does sharing ITs control make one unbelievably and incredibly rich**

But it is not as if IT's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World is unknown news whenever it has been so cleared stated before and shared earlier to the world via cinematic media.

*Indeed, whenever one considers the exemplar sub-prime world of bank profits, is the accuracy and inconvenient truth in that observation more than just self evident with the result being an ethereal con of colossal proportions.

** And it is even possible, and may even be more desirable in order not to alarm armed natives to create a panic and a destructive anarchic chaos, to be made even richer by being paid not to share such IT control because it is too powerful and beyond current present establishment means and memes of executive administrative control ….. which is one spookily Danegeld rich.

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Even OpenReach ...

That's because they seem to have a deliberate policy of discouraging customers.

Dear OpenReach,

Please give me a fibre service I can buy soon.

Yours sincerely

A customer willing to buy if you're willing to sell

And yes, sorry, I do know there are shed loads of people who are worse off in this respect than me.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Even OpenReach ...

Same here.

Asked them to install a phone line two months ago. They didn't bother to turn up to appointments, and seemingly don't want the business.

No wonder they are losing money.

Its not like there is any alternative, so they can't blame competitors. They are simply mismanaged.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Even OpenReach ...

I work for BT myself, and believe me, it's just as frustrating when engineers don't go out for orders. We don't have any direct interaction with the engineers ourselves, so we can't just call them. We have to go through Openreach, who are the middlemen. Getting them to play ball is sometimes really difficult.

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Anonymous Coward

Typical

As usual El Reg spins this to totally slam BT for no good reason at all. These results were apparently so awful that the share price has gone up by 15p in the space of a few hours.

You are also lying, because BT Global Services have secured £1.9bn in extra capital which is an increase on 17% from last quarter. Therefore, not *every* part of the Group has done badly.

This vendetta against BT is childish and I'm surprised you get away with it. Anon for obvious reasons.

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Re: Typical

This is The Register: Pick a vendetta. Weird bias in the reporting is normal business. You just gotta learn to read through the FUD and outright bullshit.

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Speak as you find...

I've had BT broadband on my Mac for well over 8 years.

My normal speed varies between 8Mb and 11Mb downstream. I'm on an "up to16Mb" deal, but I'm around 1 mile from the exchange, and my small estate is served by aluminium cables strung from poles!

I can only recall one temporary outage during that time and I'm happy with the speed I get, considering the infrastructure. I'm in a small-ish village some 7 miles outside Wolverhampton, and we're not in the current Infinity schedules unfortunately. Neither do we have any cable in the village.

All in all, I've had a pretty trouble-free time with BT so far (touch wood).

I don't work for BT, and can only speak as I've found. No doubt there will be a rash of down votes from those who dislike anything which doesn't back up their prejudices.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Speak as you find...

Part of the reason BT's name is rightly dirt around here is because of the Phorm debacle, when BT illegally intercepted the communications of thousands of their customers.

So perhaps it's less a case prejudice and more of a case of dislike for an immoral company...

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Big Brother

Re: Speak as you find...

"...BT illegally intercepted the communications of thousands of their customers..."

Yes, I know it doesn't make it right and all OK, but that was rapidly dealt with.

However, such illegal shenanigans continue under the auspices of Google, Facebook inter alia and even Her Maj's Gov, courtesy of GCHQ.

Using the interwebs makes it damn difficult to remain private, without a whole load of effort.

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Re: Speak as you find...

Google, facebook, Yahoo and co only get to use your data if you let them.

GCHQ has legal powers to snoop on anything you do - but as a rule, "they have better things to do than snoop on you" - this isn't Singapore after all.

BT had no such legal authority to use a man-in-the-middle attack (phorm) to hand data to a private company (phorm) which would then be used to put unwanted advertising in your face to the profit of that private company.

Transparent proxying is one thing. Altering what you see is something that's resulted in various malware writers and associated companies having their collars felt.

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Anonymous Coward

Plunging BT sales hit every branch of the biz ..

This is the Microsoft Surface effect we didn't hear about?

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