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WTF? Been seeing a lot of recommendations for Mint Linux to newcomers, why?
This topic was created by MyBackDoor.
WTF? Been seeing a lot of recommendations for Mint Linux to newcomers, why?
Why do people push Mint over something like vanilla Debian to try to turn Linux on to people? I can't figure this out. I couldn't imagine knowing nothing about Unix besides what I have seen in Mint, then something going wrong, then trying to find help for the particular problem on Mint. The available help for a newcomer to any system is more serious than people think.
Compare these 2 search strings on google: "linux mint samba configuration" & "linux debian samba configuration"
The first result for "mint" adds worlds of misunderstanding to someone who has never used Unix...
http://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/system-config-samba
Pretend you nothing about Unix, now click install. OK, later on something goes wrong, where is the webpage that has the "Fix It" button? Hopefully what went wrong wasn't internet access (poor soul), but this is how little a newcomer would understand. Almost certain they would actually look for a "Fix It" button.
Now go look at the first result for the debian string. How many differences do you see? ( http://www.debianhelp.co.uk/samba.htm )
So, again, why is Mint Linux coming up more and more as a suggestion to expose someone to Unix?
Re: WTF? Been seeing a lot of recommendations for Mint Linux to newcomers, why?
Recommendation is everything, I think. I followed the recommendations recently and tried Mint out on a VM and decided I liked it. I then found it worked very nicely on my eeePC, so I was sold. Agreed samba doesn't work right, but that isn't what I wanted it for anyway.
Now Debian may be superior - and I'll find out soon, on your recommendation - but people aren't going to know unless it gets the same groundswell that Mint has had.
Some observations on the Debian site that might partially explain the problem :
- the word 'Linux' doesn't appear at all on the home page.
- there doesn't appear to be a download for Intel 64 bit PCs,
- live distro download is torrent only.
- site isn't as flashy as the Mint one.
None of the above are big deals, to someone who knows what they're doing/what they want, but to the inexperienced they might matter.
Re: WTF? Been seeing a lot of recommendations for Mint Linux to newcomers, why?
> - there doesn't appear to be a download for Intel 64 bit PCs,
Use amd64 for Intel and AMD 64-bit PCs
(IA-64 is for Intel Itanium, not ordinary PCs)
Re: WTF? Been seeing a lot of recommendations for Mint Linux to newcomers, why?
I think it contains Ubuntu goodness, avoids the fashionable but controversial UI innovations, and comes with all the codecs and libraries for media play without a second installation step.
Because it's easy and it works
Ubuntu used to be thing for noobs. and Mint did used to be an Ubuntu remix of a sort so still got recommended on that basis.
These days Mint is for the most part a Debian remix, not that it makes a huge difference from being an Ubuntu remix. As a desktop OS Debian/Ubuntu and remixes there of are the easiest for beginners to approach. Forum support for both is very good, and for the most part (non-gui related) advice that applies to Debian can also be applied to Ubuntu and remixes of either.
Mint has an advantage for beginners over Ubuntu these days because of Ubuntu's move to it's Unity desktop system.
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Unity, but Mint comes in KDE, Xfce, MATE and Cinnamon desktop variants. All of those desktop systems by default feature a taskbar with a system tray on the right with the clock in and a menu button on the left containing all of your programs.
As I'm sure I don't need to point out that this gives them, at point of looking at the desktop, a striking similarity (superficially anyway) to the layout of Windows. An OS which most linux newbies have quite probably used before and are comfortable with.
Yes of course you could install KDE, Xfce, MATE or Cinnamon on some other distro but that's extra work a newbie doesn't want or need.
As an additional bonus, Mint comes with media codecs installed by default, something which Debian and Ubuntu do not. I think it may also come with Flash browser plugins already installed but I'm not certain on that one.
Essentially it comes down to the fact that freshly installed Mint presents a slightly more familiar desktop environment that looks pretty, has software in that will play all your media by default and lets you browse your favorite web pages without having to do any extra fiddling. Exactly what desktop linux newbies are after.
I've often heard it said jokingly
"Ubuntu is actually translates to 'I can't configure Debian'"
Well as an experienced used of various distros I would only half jokingly say
"Linux Mint actually translates to 'I don't WANT to configure Ubuntu'".
Worlds of misunderstanding
Oh and just to address your point of the results for Mint adding worlds of misunderstanding.
Most linux newbies aren't too worried about misunderstanding to begin with, they just want to be able to get it to work. They pick up the real way things work later on when they have a more solid grasp of using the OS.
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
@JustaKOS: Don't switch! Stay with Mint. Please don't think I'm implying you should switch. Switching between distro's might be one of the major reasons people don't stick with Linux. The shear amount of distro's available is good, but it also has a down side.
@Phil W: True about the newbies, but do you think the default ease of use presented in Mint will give a newcomer a solid grasp?
Maybe I'm looking at it wrong, maybe too much of my personal persona comes through. Maybe it really comes down to 2 types of newcomers: those that want to know Unix, and those that don't. We do know these types exist in many aspects of things, not just computing. However, with the type of newcomer that doesn't want to know, is there now Unix distros that are currently building a future class of users that will take their PC's in for repair because they just can't be bothered to sort out simple problems? Is a new breed of "Geek Squad" being created?
New users that don't want to know anything more than games and web browsing on Unix, just might build a future PC repair sector, which is good, but is that what the community wants? On one side of the coin I feel that is fine, make Linux a equal to all the "others" we currently have. But on the other side, are the "others" really the standard to be met?
There shouldn't be a prerequisite of knowledge that you have to possess to take advantages of certain luxuries that distro's offer, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.
Citations: "Geek Squad" is a computer repair service offered by a corporation called "Best Buy" in at least the USA. "others" is you know who.
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
You're right to some degree, there are a few types of people who get into Linux. I'd say three.
Those that want to get into it to use it as an alternative desktop OS to Windows. They just want it to work to browse the internet or play games or what ever. Maybe cos they don't want to pay for Windows, who knows.
The second group would be those that want to learn the actual OS side of things, they want to understand how it works be able to configure all the different aspects.
The third group would be those that HAVE to learn Linux for work purposes. These people may or may not actually want to learn it, and if they don't ease of use is really paramount for them.
As for if I think the ease of use will give newbies a solid grasp. No but that's not what's important about it.
If you're a newbie venturing into Linux for the first time you've potentially got two things to contend with. Not knowing how it works or how to use it, and not being comfortable with the feel of it.
If you can eliminate, or reduce, the issue of them being comfortable with the system, learning the actual inner workings of becomes that much easier due the confidence the comfortable experience will give them.
Considering that idea, look at the state of Debian vs Mint after a clean install.
The desktop environment you get from Debian is stark and lacking in a variety of features and options, to get a decent desktop experience you immediately have to start learning.
The desktop environment you get from Mint is polished and smooth and has everything you need to get started.
@MyBackDoor - Switching from Mint
Don't worry, I'm not switching :)
I use VirtualBox on Win7 to try out the various distros. Mint is the first one in a while that I liked enough to try out on my netbook, and I'm pleased with the result.
Debian looks good in a VM and I'm thinking I'll install it properly on another box. It doesn't hurt to have two distros on the go - especially as the Ubuntu experience has shown that a distro might be great today but pants tomorrow.
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
think there's another type missing from your catalog: Power luser-- knows linux, can make stuff work if needed, but really prefers not to.
For example, I have no interest in fighting with my inetd configuration or figuring out how to install the right driver for my graphics card (what? need to escape to console, gdm stop, run some crap, and gdm start? grrr. @%!*). I use Linux because I love the tools-- gcc, make, bash or tcsh, vi, perl, man, pipes, etc. Once properly configured, it is a great environment for getting stuff done. There is a lot of complexity in this environment, but it is ultimately rewarding to use.
The less configuration I need to do because some kind person (either sys admin or distributor) figured out how to make it work, the happier I am. If said kind person wants me to work through their guis rather than directly hacking config files, fine, I don't care, as long as there's a way to print without spending hours fighting with cups, listen to audio without fighting with some awful combination of alsa, lame, oss, gstreamer, etc. The low level configuration is totally distribution dependent too, so while I can transfer my knowledge of code development from SuSe to Centos to Ubuntu and never notice much change, if I have to create a service on each of those, the work will be different. Does knowing all these little weirdnesses make me a better or more effective developer? Probably not. Give me a distro that comes with all the dev tools, productivity stuff, and generally nice things like codecs that I want and let me get on with my life.
Note: Ubuntu fails at this-- it takes a decent amount of searching to figure out where the man pages for the c standard library are, the system doesn't come with development tools like gcc, and it replaces perfectly fine free tools with poor open source replacements, like open-jdk and evince that almost but don't really work. It also doesn't ship with proprietary drivers-- why on earth can't they detect that I have an NVIDIA card during install and set it up correctly for me? Where are my microsoft fonts so I can view documents reliably in Libre Office? (I know, I know, it's a political thing about GPL and free software, but shouldn't the purpose of a distro be to serve users?). I can't say if Mint fits the bill since I haven't used it, but the general description sounds about right.
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras
Or use Mint?
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
cool, didn't know that existed-- still doesn't give me full-fat acroread, sun java, nvidia drivers, etc, but good to know about.
Thank you mr(s?). penguin, have a beer.
Re: Worlds of misunderstanding
Mentioning Nvidia drivers made me remember a distro.
Linux Ultimate Edition, based of Debian/Mint, it's very prettified and last time i used it (2-3 years ago) it was one of the better platforms for Linux gaming.
I use Xubuntu myself
Still part of the Ubuntu ecosystem, but with a more familiar UI style. What's not to like?
one thing I have been using lately is andLinux.
I dont really know to describe it other than say its a bit like a Linux VM that has a contextual relationship with Windows. It isnt like Cygwin, it goes one better.
The only draw back is that it only works on 32Bit Windows - which is fine for my work laptop which is still XP.
Its an interesting thing, and I would urge anyone who doesnt think they need Linux to take a look at it as well as die hard Cygwin fans.
