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back to article Nokia turns a PROFIT. Sort of

Nokia announced a pre-tax profit of €375m for the fourth quarter of last year today, suggesting the deep cuts of the past year, including the axing of around 20,000 employees, have allowed management to steady the ship. The profit included sales of its corporate HQ and $250m support payments from Microsoft. Group net sales in …

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Good.

Now if only RIM can plug the holes in their own sinking ship, we might have the makings of a decent competitive, innovative phone market.

Monopoly very bad; duopoly quite bad; quadropoly probably ok.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good.

Plenty of innovation happening on the Googly side, no problems there. In the last year we have had some great Nexus devices for a very competitive prices.

The only people calling out are those onboard the RIM hindenberg or the Windows Phone titanic...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good.

Do you think Google would be innovating if there weren't any competition?

A monoculture is a bad thing, competition is to be encouraged.

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Meh

Profits?

Profits at the expense of people.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good.

RIM don't even know their head from their arse.

If you request some info (like I did) following the contact email-adresses on their website then all you get is a meaningless automated message telling you to use the "appropriete channels". Even the webmasters emailaddress give the same automated nonsense.

Fuck RIM. At least the folks at Nokia have the decency to answer potential consumer requests for product info.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good.

"A monoculture is a bad thing, competition is to be encouraged."

You should do that on the desktop

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Profits?

"Profits at the expense of people"

Or

A bankrupt company at the expense of everyone, not just a few. I know what I'd go for, given a choice. Also, those people who have been made redundant will be getting really rather good redundancy payments.

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FAIL

Re: Good.

No need.

Samsung have Bada. That easily takes 3rd or 4th place, without Nokia/MS having hoist themselves out of the ditch.

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Anonymous Coward

Amazing!

Company makes losses people say it is bad.

Company makes profit and people still say it is bad.

Sure, they've sold less phones but they're selling them for more and generating a higher profit. Surely if a company is "failing" then nobody would want to buy a more expensive phone from such a company? I don't call making more money from less phones bad.

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Headmaster

less ≠ fewer

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Anonymous Coward

What an outstanding spot of pedantry. Even deployed the correct "does not equal" symbol rather than the usual "!=" or, even worse, "=/=" of the riff-raff.

Fine stroke Sir.

Duly upvoted.

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BEEP BEEP BEEP

Paging Mr Eadon....

....Mr Eadon you're needed immediately for an anti-Microsoft posting.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: BEEP BEEP BEEP

Last I saw of him he'd mistakenly wandered into an article about a Ms Hotty Tops in Texas who's suing to get saucy pics of herself removed from the interwebs. Haven't heard a peep from him since. I'm starting to worry the poor sod may have gone blind.

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downvoting for your

blatant anti-Microsoft, anti-ballmerean and anti-elopean posting!

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so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

they would have done better.

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Unhappy

Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

I just got a massively discounted Nokia 700. It's a nice little smartphone that uses Belle. It does what I need it to do and is actually very pleasant to use, barring a few minor hiccups when I unlock it.

But after all it's already 1 year old, and watching it I can't stop thinking *what could have been* if Symbian continued alive. It's really, really sad

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Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

Jess,

If they'd have kept Symbian, they'd almost certainly have sold more phones. However, there's a big 'but' in here. They weren't making very much profit on their Symbian phones, and the year Elop dumped it, they were getting lower margins on each Symbian sale. So it's possible they might have made a loss on higher sales. In general, profits are better than losses...

It's a hypothetical - unless you have access to a time machine. Could Symbian have survived the £100 Androids, some of which are now quite good? It's impossible to know. From the hideous way RIM's sales have fallen off a cliff in the last 2 years, it's entirely possible that Symbian might not be selling any phones at a profit now (or even at all), or Nokia could still be making a few quid per phone on 50 million handsets. It's even possible that Elop could have beaten up on middle management and got some of Nokia's great R&D through the production pipeline and got Symbian up-to-date by now. He obviously didn't believe that.

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Trollface

Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

Are they actually making any profit on the Lumia phones at all though? I thought they were sold at a large loss.

My understanding was that profits were from the Asha line of phones...

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Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

> Are they actually making any profit on the Lumia phones at all though? I thought they were sold at a large loss.

I did see a figure, probably for up to Q3, that that the Lumia range made a 47% loss for Nokia. But that counted in startup costs. The problem is that these were for WP7 so they needed another lot of startup costs for WP8 Lumias which are quite different.

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Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

> They weren't making very much profit on their Symbian phones

And they are on the Win phones? I notice the quality drop with the windows phones compared to an N8. Downgraded camera, lack of SD support. I'm pretty sure they lack the connectivity too. So if they wanted to make bigger margins, they could have done the same. Quite frankly the first range of Lumia phones were pathetic in comparison to the N8, when I asked questions at a stand the rep seemed quite embarrassed about the answers he had to give. Perhaps the newer ones aren't as bad.

> Could Symbian have survived the £100 Androids, some of which are now quite good?

Why not? It's not like they need to pay for it. Win Phone has little hope.

> It's even possible that Elop could have beaten up on middle management and got some of Nokia's great R&D through the production pipeline and got Symbian up-to-date by now. He obviously didn't believe that

And of course we all believe that too.

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Re: so basically if they hadn't axed symbian

I read (I think one of Orlowski's articles?) that the original Lumia's weren't built by Nokia, but were outsourced. Not sure if that was design as well as manufacture. Although the lack of SD cards was down to Microsoft. I believe WP8 now supports them, whereas WP7 didn't. HTC seemed to use them as cheap (non-removable) storage for some reason. Did MS change the spec at the last minute perhaps?

I've also seen suggestions that Nokia over-ordered, hence having a bunch of phones left over in Q3 last year, that they had to dump pretty sharp-ish. We were looking at an upgrade to the company mobiles and we could pick up Lumia 800s very cheaply, at the same price as some of the crappy Android 2.3 cheapies that were still knocking around last year.

It'll be interesting to see if Nokia can keep the current Lumia range around their current prices, or if they'll have to discount heavily in order to keep the sales going. My impression is that a lot of their sales were the Lumia 710 last year, which was released at £300, but I suspect sold mostly between £150-£200. I certainly saw it on sale at those prices a lot. Bought mine for £130. The hardware ought to have been pretty cheap, and it's fine for what I paid for it - though not spectacular. And I don't think it was ever worth £300.

It would be interesting to see some proper figures from Nokia. They've paying big license fees to MS, but then they're getting a $1billion 'support' payment. I wonder what they were paying for the hardware? The Lumia 800/900 looked well enough built, the 710 and 610 much less so.

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Anonymous Coward

All aboard

the titanic is about to depart....

woo hooo.....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's cooking the books!

Thankyou for taking your time to respond to this page, we value your input.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It's cooking the books!

Right on cue!

Have an upvote for your impeccable timing.

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Paris Hilton

Re: It's cooking the books!

I'm glad to see you haven't gone blind after all and you have got your breath back at last.

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Anonymous Coward

So....

Whole company makes €375m pre-tax for the quarter,

Nokia Siemens made €251m

Leaving a total profit for the whole of the rest of Nokia of €124m

Microsoft paid them $250M (€187m)

So the rest of Nokia (including their wonderful phone division) made a loss of €63m

And this is supposed to be good .....

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FAIL

Re: So....

Not only that, but they sold their HQ, which is a one-off boost to earnings. In subsequent years they will be paying to rent it back from the new owners, who will actually want to make a profit from their investment.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: So....

Not only that -- they also sold their headquarters for €170m, and then there's all the patent payment they're receiving...

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FAIL

Still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone

I am still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone. Not going to happen. Nokia is about to fail. They are going to be missed.

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Re: Still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone

I couldn't care less whther Nokia "is about to fail" or not. I need a phone with proper full 2 way call recording and the only devices that can accomplish this without hacking/cracking/jailbreaking/rooting/or any other way of tampering are Symbian phones.

In fact people should care less about whether company X does this or that! You have requirements, you buy a phone that fulfill these requirements. Period. You don't buy a company. You buy a bloody phone. It has 2 years consumer warranty and it'll probably keep working after that.

You still call and get called. You'll still send SMS- or get SMS-messages. These are the 2 main basic things that ALL phones do. No matter what "ecosystem" or company-health and I doubt that will change.

But I guess we all love fart-apps (and the various variants of the various fart-apps). Oh dear.

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FAIL

Re: Still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone

If everyone applies your logic then yes Nokia will fail. On the other hand if everyone buys a Nokia then Nokia will do very well indeed.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone

I know it doesn't help much as it's even harder to find than Symbian, but the N9 does the recording job nicely. Actually I have it record all my calls, just in case. Haven't really needed it much though.

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Re: Still not going to buy Nokia Windows phone

> the only devices ... are Symbian phones.

"""The Nokia 808 PureView, a device which showcases our imaging capabilities and which came to market in mid-2012, was the last Symbian device from Nokia."""

Note the past tense 'was'. This may mean they have stopped that too, after selling 2.2 miliion symbian's last quarter.

> It has 2 years consumer warranty and it'll probably keep working after that.

A warranty does not mean that the phone will keep working, it means that if the phone fails then the company will fix or replace it. If the company fails the warranty is useless.

So, yes, you _do_ 'buy the company'.

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2 consecutive year losses ... a year after, sold assets and cut jobs - a miracle, it turns a profit with a massive cash injection from its backer. Apple and Samsung need to learn from Nokia.

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Mushroom

Just curious

What exactly do "Apple and Samsung need to learn from Nokia"

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Re: Just curious

Sarcasm?

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Headmaster

Re: Just curious

How not to do it?

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Pint

As predicted last year....

NSN is the keel on the Good Ship Nokia. A couple of years ago, I'd have predicted NSN's demise. I'm happy that I can say that I was totally and absolutely wrong.

@jonfr - you are so wrong!!! You simply don't know Finnish mentality. They aren't gonna fail. Look up the Finnish word SISU. The Finns defeated an army more than 30 times greater than them in the Second World War. Finns have got 'guts'.

(Pint, 'cos most Finns are pissed in the evening...)

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Re: As predicted last year....

I don't want Nokia to fail, I really don't. But if they're going to really return to profitability and previous grandeur, they must sack Elop and restart their OS R&D. The previous smartphone maker that went in bed with MS was Palm. We all know what happened there.

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Happy

Re: As predicted last year....

> and restart their OS R&D.

Not sure if it really makes sense for Nokia to have their own OS, but they definitely need one with more control over it. Currently Microsoft seems to dictate way too much of what can go into a Windows phone, which inhibits innovation. Wonder if it would help to raise a motion at the upcoming AGM about adopting Android? Would be shot down of course (like other harebrained motions that are a tradition the Nokia brass has to endure once a year in Helsinki).

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Re: As predicted last year....

I'm also gladly surprised that NSN did well, that's some hope for the European telecom engineering business.

But I would not make any conclusions from old wars: pick almost any country, and you'll be able to find past victories if you go back in History far enough...

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Windows

Re: As predicted last year....

Neither do I. It'd be a tragedy for the country I now live in, that I love. I want Nokia to succeed, and Elop's NOT the person to do it. (OK, prior to Palm who went 'in bed with MS' was Sendo. We SURELY know what happened to that!!!)

Yep, Elop must go. But then... Underpants Gnomes? No. Like the current encumbent, they couldn't work out step 2) to get to step 3 - PROFIT!!!

Jorma Ollilla. It's his baby, after all. "Jorma, come back to the creche - we need you!"

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Terminator

Re: As predicted last year....

Microsoft must be 30 times Nokia's size now.

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Anonymous Coward

They made a profit!

Which is more than Amazon, Google, Starbucks and Vodafone...... At least the good people of Finland can look forward to them paying their share of tax.

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Ashas could save them

Featurephones with decent build quality and that run for over a week on a charge, round the £50 mark and that don't do lots of stuff most people don't need. Wot's not to like?

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Anonymous Coward

shouldn't it be clear by now...

... that punters DON'T WANT Nokia Windows Phones?

They want Symbian, Harmattan, Android everything BUT Windows Phone!

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