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back to article Microsoft to end Windows 8 discounts on January 31

Say what you will about Windows 8; at least the upgrade from Windows 7 is cheap. Or it is for now. After January 31 will be a different story. Ever since Windows 8's October 26, 2012 launch, Microsoft has been offering retail Windows 8 Pro upgrade DVDs for $69.99. Online upgrades have been even cheaper, at $39.99. And customers …

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FAIL

Shooting themselves in the foot?

Or both feet?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot?

more like in the temple, from both barrels ;)

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Was with you until "similarly to how they praised Windows 7 (a poor OS)"

Regardless of how poor Vista and Windows 8 may be, 7 is actually a decent, stable OS. Please enlighten me specifically on why it is poor.

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Windows

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Because it's Eadon and as i was enlightened the other day to his foaming-at-the-mouth anti MS rants, so to have you....

He talks a lot but says nothing.....

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@Eadon Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"The directory layout is crap - "program files(86)" - Users/My Documents" etc. No! I want to work from a subdirectory that hangs directly off "C:\""

how is the directory layout of Windows different to unix. On unix home folders are /home/username, on windows they're C:\users\username. On unix programs are installed in /usr or /usr/local or /opt depending on how they got there. In windows, programs installed properly are in c:\program files. On unix settings are stored in /etc on windows they're in the Registry. Data used by programs is in /var on unix and in c:\programdata on windows. Apart from the registry it's total stupidity to think that these system differ in much more than the names.

"The Windows 7 file system is poor. It takes a long time to copy /manipulate files, relative to Linux / Mac etc. "

NTFS is a very good filesystem, compared to ext4 it's amazing. I performed a live expansion of an ext4 filesystem the other day I need to grow a 6TB array by 1TB, it took 4 days. The same job on NTFS takes a few seconds. Also deleting files on ext4 is very slow compared to NTFS. Unlike you I'm not going to comment on the mac filesystem because I know nothing about it, it could be the greatest filesystem going but I don't know, because like you and Windows I don't use it.

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

@Eadon

"The directory layout is crap - "program files(86)" - Users/My Documents" etc. No! I want to work from a subdirectory that hangs directly off "C:\"

So right. At last someone else has highlighted one of my major gripes about Windows.

Things like "My Computer" are merely subdirectories of C: Presenting Desktop, My Documents, My Computer as somehow not, let alone placing them higher in the display's listing than C: is bonkers.

Like it or not, computers are about files and directories, devices and connections. Pretending that they are not (as per bloody Apple) is just to breed dumb users who can't fix stuff for themselves, so pester those who can.

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

How is that any different to the Unix way?

Where exactly is /home? I mean really?

It's somewhere in /dev/hdd, right? Or a network share or something.

It's certainly not straight in the root!

Those things at the top are just symlinks in both Windows and Linux.

In Windows 7, you can finally create some of your own in the GUI, instead of cmd or Registry.

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Holmes

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

> It's certainly not straight in the root!

Actually it is. That's the whole point. It's a straight hierarchy. All your objects are in this hierarchy (even the devices, and last decade a lot of runtime and kernel stuff has shown up in places under /proc and /sys), you know the operations you can apply, you know where your current directory is, you know where you are when you go ..-wards. (Eliding the magic of ioctl, the fact that you have to tell users why you cannot cd to /dev/sda and my experience when I first wanted to "mount a floppy" in a Sparc IPC) You don't care about whether a directory (really, a provider of byte streams) is on a local disk, a mounted CD or on a network drive. It's an abstraction. That's the point of of having and OS. It's a clean abstraction. That makes the OS worthwhile.

You may argue whether an inexperienced user needs an overlay on this view, but generally I don't think it's needed. Drive letters? ... well, it's an IBM idea. Nuff said. Plus, the bizarro overlay shown to unsuspecting users starting with XP File Explorer is frankly confusing. My what? Where? What for? And it seems to be getting worse.

And don't get me started on the Redmond Implementation of symbolic links. Accumulated karma fused with bad design is the best description one can come up with.

Where is the religious war icon?

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Okay I was ignoring most of your rant, but the one bit I cant ignore is

"it needs anti-virus (only Windows is susceptible to viruses)"

Since when has Windows been the only OS susceptible to viuses???

http://www.securelist.com/en/analysis/204792228/Monthly_Malware_Statistics_April_2012

The main reason that Windows has the major share of the problem when it comes to viruses and malware is that, it is the most prevalent software on users computers. Compared to users who run Linux/Unix(insert flavour of choice here), or those who are running Mac OS(insert large cat of choice here) the numher of Windows PC users far outweighs the other two, so the majority of malware is written and designed to attack Windows.

I personally don't like Mac OS, but I dont tare holes in it that I can't prove just because I dont like it!

If you have something to say regarding the article then fine say it, otherwise shut the fuck up!!

Can't understand why this is such a drama, most companies do this bring something in at an introductory price then a couple of months later put the prices up. Its how the world works

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Facepalm

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Another Eadon post!

They all sound the same, it's like Uncle Albert from Only Fools And Horses...

"when I was in the war Rodney....."

Change the record chap. We know you think Windows is crap, tired of hearing of it. In fact I bet the linux folks are too. Not helping!

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Happy

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"Windows uses back slashes in its diretory paths - a total annoyance, and not consistent with the web or unix etc that use forward slashes."

Please, no more, I have trouble controlling my bladder as I'm rolling on the floor laughing!

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Headmaster

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"They all sound the same, it's like Uncle Albert from Only Fools And Horses...

"when I was in the war Rodney....." "

It was "Durin' the war"...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"In fact I bet the linux folks are too" There are still some linux folks left?????!!!!!!!

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"It has a poor driver model (each hardware device usually wants a specific driver installing)"

Huh? Is that any different from any other operating system?

"It only runs on Intel."

Not that much of a problem for its target market of Intel computers. Previous versions have run on Power PC, Sparc, Alpha and Itanic. Nobody wanted to buy them.

"The directory layout is crap - "program files(86)" - Users/My Documents" etc. No! I want to work from a subdirectory that hangs directly off "C:\""

You can work from a c:\ subdirectory if you really want to. Other operating systems have similar directory structures, albeit with different names.

"Also, compared to, say OSX or Linux operating systems, Windows 7 has an utterly terrible command line. Unix command line is simply a must-have for power-users."

Have you tried PowerShell? Certainly it's not the same as Bash. I find it does somethings better, some things not quite so well, but overall much the same.

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Happy

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

@Eadon

Truth hurts I guess chap!

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Pint

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Not confused in the slightest, but unlike you I gave the reasoning behind the amount of malware/viruses for Windows as opposed to other systems. You ignored that point completely, so when Linux distros or even Mac out number the amount of Windows installs feel free to revisit this as you will find that those tables will have turned.

You seem to get confused very easily though. You think installing Linux is easy (so do I as a matter of fact) however try doing a side by side comparison with someone who has basic computer skills and you will find that Windows comes out on top every time, because of how easy it is to use. The majority of PC users are basic users so its time to face up to that little fact and deal with it, if everyone was a power user then you would find these forums a bit fuller and you would probably be drowned out!!

A pint for the wishful thinking in my last sentance

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Funny enough, Windows 7 is far better than Linux on my laptop - battery life is around 30% longer and all the hardware works perfectly. The reality is that, as a consumer desktop, Linux still has a long, long way to go, although I agree that OSX is far better than either Windows or Linux.

Linux is usable on the desktop, but it's not nearly as easy for the average person as either OSX or Win7. And those people don't know what a command lines, file paths or directory layouts are. And the fact that you focus on these things as why Windows sucks is exactly why Linux is still a crappy desktop...

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

HAHAHAHA! When is your stand up dvd coming out?

> only Windows is susceptible to viruses

I must have imagined the viruses that exist for Mac, Linux and Unix.

> It only runs on Intel.

Ever heard of AMD? Ok so very similar architecture but they are a different company that makes different chips.

And my absolute favourite...

> Visual Studio is poor compared to, say, Eclipse

VS isn't the best IDE I've ever used but Eclipse?!?! Programming with Eclipse feels liek someone tied one hand behind my back and poked one of my eyes out! Give me VS2010 over Eclipse any day.

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FAIL

Re: @Eadon Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Eadon sounds to me like he's repeating anti-MS stuff he's heard others say.. He doesn't know what he's talking about, he's just repeating others opinions.

Some of his points are actually correct, though he doesn't seem to understand why/how/what/where

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FAIL

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Eadon, oh Eadon...

You are really not helping us unix users or the linux users...

The only characters unusable in a unix filename are "/" and NULL. Don't you dare say that is a disadvantage!

I once worked for a company and discovered that one of the support staff would rename any users 'folders' if they had characters like a space or single/double quote, or a * etc.

I say 'folders' because the users didn't get a shell, they were locked into this office-type application that let them create folders (i,e, directories) without any spurious restrictions.

bash - yes, it's over 30 years old now, but it too is not 'standard' unix. It doesn't come with my unix system, although it can be installed. You are probably thinking of the much more simplistic "sh", which bash was written to be a super-set of.

memory use / disk response -- yes, both are poor in windows, and are somewhat linked. But it's not just a matter of filesystems, it's got to do with memory management, intelligent data caching and queueing, and where to actually place a file on the disk... The other side of the coin involves the rather convoluted way that windows still uses swap files, which just adds an unnecessary protocol layer on what is meant to be FAST.. Does windows still actually fragment it's swap file? I've not checked lately,

Your point about viruses was so crudely made that you rightly got shot down - it's far more complicated than that,

Finally, remember that linux is not unix. I've never used a machine with an /opt partition, and only install BASH on the servers on request from others. I have nothing against bash, but tcsh does it for me. Remeeber, it's not all linux out there!

As a parting shot, isn't it true that linux is trying to depreciate /dev for "udev" because they couldn't get devfs working correctly?

Similarly, ALSA was conceived because they couldn't get their OSS implementation to work properly (real time audio / in-kernel channel mixing and individual volumes per source -- all done in software if the sound card couldn't do it in hardware)

If Linux had implemented OSS correctly from the beginning we wouldn't now be swamped with all these sound daemons adding an extra layer to the mix (esound/arts etc.)

Anyway, I'm not here to bash (pun intended) linux, but your posts give the MS fans lots of ammunition to throw back at you

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

@Jamie

You are spot on there... as someone who encourages Linux use in our organisation my first priority is to be utterly honest and even-handed. All technology has its strengths and weaknesses, and it's part of my job to translate that into terms that are useful to someone who is making a purchasing decision.

The fractured state of the Linux desktop makes it impossible to recommend at present because it's impossible to know which variant(s) are still going to be here in 5 years' time. I have the same sort of doubts about TIFKAM so sadly the recommendation boils down to a Mac for those who have the money, W7 for those who don't, and Linux on the server.

The knee-jerk anti-MS stuff feeds the perception of Unicologists as blinkered zealots rather than a source of well-reasoned advice... Eadon please cut it out and give the Beast of Redmond credit where credit is due.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"please stop stalking me, it's creepy"

Lol! It's been a while since I've seen that one. Always used to be a clear sign that one of the parties in a usenet argument had lost, they'd accuse the other one of being 'creepy'. Excellent! May I suggest you compare him to a Nazi next? :)

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Boffin

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8. @Flhart

"Like it or not, computers are about files and directories, devices and connections. Pretending that they are not (as per bloody Apple) is just to breed dumb users who can't fix stuff for themselves, so pester those who can."

As much as Apple loves to hide stuff on their mobile fondleslabs, the directory structure on OSX is actually the same than that used in UNIX. / filesystem, anything else goes under that. Even the user homedirs are under /Users/xxxxxx, even if this breaks with the /home/xxxxx standard or /home/group/xxxxx one, it still looks UNIXy enough to work. AND they also use /dev, so my main disk is usually /dev/disk0s2. They "hide" stuff from common users, but it is there to be seen by savvy users as well.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"Excellent! May I suggest you compare him to a Nazi next?"

I think Eadon reserves that analogy (I hope he uses it as an analogy) for Microsoft itself.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

ITT A large number of reasons normal people dislike IT fanatics.

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Thumb Down

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Yes you did.

Imagine viruses that exist for Mac OS X that is!

Now, if you are including trojans and java-based malware I'd agree with you.

But no, you called them viruses.

Just proves you are an idiot.

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Re: @Eadon Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

NTFS vs ext4

Try this rough test.

Using something you can remove the power to easily (simulated power cut).

(If you want to be pedantic, create a checksum of some kind)

Set off a file write, a large one, or a bunch of small ones, so you can be sure writing is taking place when power is removed.

Report back with your results.

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Stop

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Windows 7 is clearly the best WINDOWS ever released. I really didn't think I would by dumping my XP installs until the machines running them fell apart, but I've completely moved to 7 on the windows machines.

Some of your complaints are standard parts of windows, so complaining about them here is just OS zeolatry - stop that. Others, like the performance of NTFS and visual studio (VS inferior to eclipse? On what planet?), are just plain wrong.

All OS'es are crap in some area or another. Use the one that works, and don't, to be english for a monent, be a prat.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

@Eadon

> The desktop will be different in 5 years time on all systems. In the microsoft world they've just gone from Win 7 to Win 8 with a wildly different UI, so your point back fires on you. Windows is far more fractured than Linux, you have XP, Vista, Win 7 and Win 8 with wildly different UI's

So riddle me this: which of the following should be recommended to new Linux users:

* Gnome

* KDE

* LXDE

* XFCE

* Unity

* MATE

* Cinnamon

There you have it, a greater variety of UIs than Windows has *ever* had - but all of these are current offerings on an OS that has minimal market share, and each has its loyal tribe of followers. How is it possible to advise a newbie which of these they should invest their time in getting up the learning curve on, with any degree of assurance that within 5 years they won't be forced to learn something else (in which case they won't be coming back for more advice)? At least the Mac has only really had 2 UIs, MacOS and OSX.

Back in 1992 (which is when I started using Linux) the GUI programs tended to use either OpenLook or the Athena widget set and if one tried to mix them with modern GTK and Qt programs there would be jarring inconsistencies for the user (except for the Metro user, what they get is not much different from the flat look of the Athena widgets :->). So no, old Linux programs are even deader than Windows 3.11 programs.

Even today the balkanisation of widget sets remains a problem when trying to integrate the best of the Gnome and KDE worlds. From Win95 up til the abortion known (in the typical MS NewSpeak way) as "modern", Windows has used the same widget set (crappy, but universal) and by sticking to the basic Win32 API it is possible to write programs that work on everything from Windows 95 through to 7 - with sufficiently consistent visual integration that they do not seem out of place on any of those OSes. I have a sneaky feeling that in 3 years time one of the selling points of W9 will be that it boots straight into the desktop...

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Linux

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

"The main reason that Windows has the major share of the problem when it comes to viruses and malware is that, it is the most prevalent software on users computers."

There's little point in pointing out (yet again) that this is urban myth, because it is evidence that Jay doesn't actually understand the fundamental difference between a virus (specifically) and malware (generally).

Jay, once you have grasped the concept of self-replication - not possible in a Linux system, because there are no mechanisms by which this can occur - come back and re-join the technical debate, with the understanding why there are no Linux viruses.

And please don't mention the "Linux anti-virus software" peddled by the snake oil salesmen or (guffaw) mention Clam AV... only noobs don't realise that Clam AV is a (pretty good) open source Linux package for detecting and quarantining Windows malware from mail passing through Linux mail servers...

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

I must have imagined the viruses that exist for Mac, Linux and Unix.

You did imagine them... none exist. Are you as confused as Jay about the concept of self-replication, the unique characteristic that defines a virus?

Because if you can find or even name any self-replicating malware for any of those OSs, you will be the first ever to do so.

Hint: there are no mechanisms within these for self-replication. And please don't start slabbering on about ELF viruses, ELF files are executable code and still need someone to run them, with or without root privileges... that doesn't constitute "self-replication".

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FAIL

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot?

The reason for this is obvious and simple AC, for the past few years, since the release of WinPhone at least, Ballmer has cared about nothing but Wall Street and NOT the customer base.

A sane CEO would look at the negative indicators across the board and not only not give people the choice of Win 7 or 8 to stop the bleeding but to more than double the price on a product they can't sell at $40? Well wall Street likes high priced products herpa de derpa de derp.

The only nice thing I can say about Win 8 is thus: Windows 8 will finally get people to accept that Vista wasn't the mess they thought it was. At least with Vista by SP2 it worked quite well and as long as you turned off its hyper UAC bugging the snot out of you it was quite usable. With Win 8 frankly it needs a product recall as its BROKEN. I mean when most people need a Win 7 PC to Google how to do basic tasks like close metro apps in Win 8 or even shut down the PC? I mean who thought putting shutdown under the universal SETTINGS icon?

Windows 8 will go down as the biggest disaster since WinME, maybe even as bad as Bob.

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8. @Flhart

Oh yes. OSX. That's the file system that gives us three, yes, three Fonts folders!! And multiple preference folders etc.

Try searching for your Acrobat .joboptions when you cant quite recall where they lie, and then remembering that the OSX 'search' doesn't look in the system file without a sharp clip round the ear from at least a medium-lever user and a bit of googling...

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FAIL

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

@ Eadon You are utterly clueless viruses require user interaction to propegate not trojans.

A virus:

"In order to replicate itself, a virus must be permitted to execute code and write to memory. For this reason, many viruses attach themselves to executable files that may be part of legitimate programs (see code injection). If a user attempts to launch an infected program, the virus' code may be executed simultaneously."

A trojan:

"A Trojan horse, or Trojan, is a non-self-replicating type of malware which appears to perform a desirable function but instead facilitates unauthorized access to the users computer system. Trojans do not attempt to inject themselves into other files like a computer virus. Trojan horses may steal information, or harm their host computer systems.[1] Trojans may use drive-by downloads or install via online games or internet-driven applications in order to reach target computers."

Your statements regarding remote exploits for linux and mac are blatantly false to I suggest you go back to school.

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Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Ignoring the foaming and other flame comments:

Win 7 driver model - each hardware device usually wants a specific driver installing. The Win 7 driver model is far better than previous as it moves the layer that a lot of driver functions execute in. Arguably hardware drivers should operate at the trusted operating level, however in reality there are a lot of very poorly written drivers out there because there are a lot of poor developers and poor emphasis in management above them to invest properly in good practices and resources to test and develop drivers. Poor quality or unreliable drivers directly affect a user's perception of the system, or Operating System as a whole - therefore when a particular device driver crashes then the immediate response is that the "computer" crashed and to blame the visible differentiating part - Windows. MS's shift of function execution mitigates this reliability issue quite a lot and also helps to resolve security issues as poorly written drivers are massive security holes that are just ready to be exploited, and often are. It's only the diversity of drivers (hardware) that has kept this security problem down. As for every hardware device requiring a specific driver, of course it does - there are hundreds of thousands of individual devices that can be plugged into a computer and therefore there are a large number of drivers. While it's true that generic class drivers can be used these do not give good performance and neither are they likely to take full advantage of the device itself.

A poor install model - If Microsoft were to produce an online App repository for Windows (not RT), can you imagine the screams of complaints and anti-trust / anti-competition threats that would result? Now what they should do is to create an App-store repository system that's comes with the Operating System itself and can be configured to point to online, or more accurately networked, App-Stores that are free and available to operate. i.e. a clearly specified client-server system where you could link your system to a company's app-store and get updates and possibly new products from them easily, alternatively a corporate managed app-store where you can install corporate software or paid for packages and the deployment and management of these is automatic. Unfortunately the reality is that most Windows software is extremely poorly written, has ghastly dependencies (a Microsoft afflicted problem) and as a result won't operate too well in an app-store / repository delivery mechanism. This is just the tip of the problem with such Windows app delivery mechanisms.

Needs anti-virus - Whatever OS happened to be used by the majority of users would be targetted for malware. A large ecosystem of systems will produce more vectors of attack and therefore will be more vulnerable. Others OSes have security problems as well, however I will concede that by (mis)design Windows is far more vulnerable than others. It's improving but is hampered by being built on an extremely poor security model to start off with.

Hides file extensions - this is one of the utter stupidities that I agree with, it's a suicidal move and while it does save some problems with inexperienced users accidentally or intentionally changing file extensions, is a crazy thing to do and causes more problems longer term as user's just don't understand that there is a file extension and that it is very important. Other poor defaults such as "hide the fecking notification icons" are another UI stupidity as well as the inane animations that slow the usage of a system down - I don't mind animations and effects, but these shouldn't slow a system down, unfortunately many of the default Windows ones make a reasonable system appear slower than it is rather than adding polish to a system.

Command line - Just use Windows Powershell if you hanker after typing everything on a monochrome screen. It's very useful for automating a lot of tasks. However GUIs were created for a reason, to make systems easier and simpler to interact and manage, don't forget that while some users have a rabid fascination with typing, the majority of users prefer to point (and click). There are some tasks that I find much easier to manage with a command line, others that are much easier with a GUI.

Slashes, forward or back... who cares? Why is one superior to the other? Why don't we just use full stops (periods) to separate directories instead? No wait, that's been done already :) The primitive drive letter system in Windows is more of a problem than slash orientation and even MS have been trying to depracate usage of drive letters for years.

Windows 7 does require a lot of resources to run. It also does more, however I'm definitely not convinced that much of what it does is useful or required and there is a lot of unneccesary bloat, which is very bad in an Operating System. See the point above about drivers though and their general quality, or lack of. It doesn't run only on Intel - it runs on x86/x64 and even then only newer versions of these. It is very hard to track driver resource usage as for efficiency reasons they aren't monitored, so when your system is running like a slug nailed to the floor and yet the CPU is shown as 99% idle this is usually the reason. Or software services running at driver level to circumvent security to allow automatic updates to software. Not monitoring of driver performance isn't unique to Windows either.

File system - the Windows file system (NTFS version whatever, at least the more recent revisions), are not poor. They're not a proper journalled file system yet (grrr), but reasonable. The time to copy or manipulate files is usually down to the nonsense that the Windows Shell (explorer) inflicts on the process combined with Anti Virus and Anti-Malware applications getting involved as well, although most of the slowness is at the Shell level. Copy or manipulate the files using command line or other file manipulation tools and the difference is very noticeable.

Directory layout? You are kidding aren't you? /home/<user> is the same as \users\<user>. Applications go in one place, data in another, settings in another and user files somewhere else. Be careful, your demand to work straight of C:\ sounds like the demand of idiotic Windows developers who seem to think that their application is so different and special that it needs all of the files in one special location for it and the program files, data files and settings (and log) files all need to be in the same writable location. Nothing like making malware's job easy for it - programs files should be read-only at all times except when an installer is writing or updating the files.

Closed source hampering debugging? Have you no ideal how to use a debugger? I can remotely debug a Windows system session if I feel like, usually I tend to stick with local debugging though. You shouldn't need to debug against windows code even when writing drivers if you stick to the correct, documented interfaces and diligently check and manage algorithm inputs and outputs as you should be doing. The windows driver API may not be the most accessible beast to read, but it is clear.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

" it needs anti-virus (only Windows is susceptible to viruses"

there speaks an idiot who would give out his pin number in a phone call....

google MAC Virus....what? no results?

google Linux virus....what no results?

no, I said use a search engine, not your local PC

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Meh

Re: Shooting themselves in the foot? - yes, by releasing Win 8.

Tired. So very tired. I don't like windows, prefer Linux. But everything is fit for a purpose.

"it needs anti-virus (only Windows is susceptible to viruses)"

If you believe that @Eadon you are far more stupid than i first anticipated.

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