back to article The Spherical Cow lands, spits out Anaconda

Fedora 18, Spherical Cow, is here. Finally. The Fedora Project has never been one for precision roadmaps, but previously it has managed to stay pretty close to its official May and October release schedule. Spherical Cow, however, proved to be a difficult beast - it is nearly three months late. The numerous delays can be chalked …

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Re: Spherical cow? really?

Calm down dear, it's only a codename.

Most codenames are for the amusement of the developers and hard-core users. When did you ever install Longhorn?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Spherical cow? really?

It's only a name for an ongoing free product. It's not like they renamed RHEL to Furry Messy Tits is it?!

Famine, death, rape and murder in the world, losing it over the name of a piece of software should be way down the list of things that light a fire under someone! Ease back to decaff for a few days, eh?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Spherical cow? really?

engineer, mathematician, physicist.

optionally with a farmer who introduces the problem.

and sometimes with sheep rather than cows.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Spherical cow? really?

"It's only a name for an ongoing free product. It's not like they renamed RHEL to Furry Messy Tits is it?!"

Shame though.

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WTF?

What did I just read?

Bit confused by this article to be honest. Right now, on my laptop I have Fedora 17 with GNOME 3 on it. Without any tweaking (because for me it worked right out of the box) when I click on the Activities button it automatically shows me all of my open windows. I stress, I haven't tweaked Fedora to do this, it has been doing this from the moment I installed it. This leads me to wonder what sort of background or past experience the writer has with Fedora.

The general feeling I get from this article is that the writer really didn't hold much hope for Fedora, and would rather be using Ubuntu or something with a bit more polish. By all means, if you want a Linux OS that looks lovely and pretty use Ubuntu or Mint. But, in my honest opinion, Fedora is aimed for the developer and/or system admin who isn't after screen candy.

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Re: What did I just read?

Agreed, that nonsense about now showing open windows had me wondering if the author has ever used Fedora before and I lost all faith in what he was saying.

As for the "only experienced users need apply" comments, Fedora 17 works perfectly for my gf who was on Ubuntu untill they decided to turn it into spyware. She's had no problems with the transition and likes Gnome 3. Admitedly she had me to set it up for her but I didn't think it any harder than the Ubuntu or Win7 installers.

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Re: What did I just read?

Agreed on what you said about your girlfriend. My girlfriend used my home machine (also Fedora 17) and once she knew where to go for the "Start menu", she was alright with it.

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Happy

Re: What did I just read?

Those posts bring up visions in my mind of usability labs where developers bring in their girlfriends to do the testing.

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Re: What did I just read? @Irongut

So installing a new distro and learning a new desktop was easier than just turning off the Amazon thing in Ubuntu (about 5 buttons clicks)?. Who would have thought it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What did I just read?

"Those posts bring up visions in my mind of usability labs where developers bring in their girlfriends to do the testing."

Good idea. They could reduce the floorspace of the labs by at least 90% :)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What did I just read?

I installed Fedora 18 on a VM just to see how it worked. I liked everything, although I didn't try to install optional software on it. But, the Unity like desktop of Gnome was just as irritating for me to use as Unity or for that matter the so called Metro of Windows 8.

On the plus side, I got to use Samba 4. It was great, and I wish other distros would upgrade to 4.

Just a few thoughts about 2 hours spent.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What did I just read?

"Those posts bring up visions in my mind of usability labs where developers bring in their girlfriends to do the testing."

...with the validation team?

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Happy

Re: What did I just read?

"Those posts bring up visions in my mind of usability labs where developers bring in their girlfriends to do the testing."

I could bring in my girlfriend, but she's a Ph.D. student working as a Linux developer in a lab that's doing computational modeling of the human brain, so that might not be the best possible test case...

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Re: What did I just read? @Irongut

@James Hughes 1

"So installing a new distro and learning a new desktop was easier than just turning off the Amazon thing in Ubuntu (about 5 buttons clicks)?. Who would have thought it."

Who said it was easier?

When Ubuntu started spying on it's users then a lot of them decided to leave it. Why should anyone believe an 'off button' actually does what it says?

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Black Helicopters

Re: What did I just read? @Irongut

Not easier.

More proactive. Which is what open source is all about.

It's like the people who buy locked down Amazon tablets because they think they are getting a fantastic deal with a lower price subsidised tab and the ability to hack a proper version of Android on it.

Not understanding that what they are really doing, is encouraging the sales of locked down company owned gear that will keep getting harder to hack as the years go by. When they could pay a few quid more for an ordinary tablet, or get one a few months later, and have the same power, but with an untarnished OS, and a wallet vote for user access..

It's about making choices. Not about making the easy choice.

Canonical is trying to monetise Ubuntu.. Not a problem. I wish them all the luck in the world. I really honestly have nothing against Ubuntu.

Canonical is trying to isolate Ubuntu users.. Problem.

Different desktop.. Slightly different file structure. Soon, more and more paid software that will be non transferable across OSs..

The question to ask yourself is..

Are you the frog that has noticed the funny metal puddle getting a little too toasty, or are you the one holding onto that frog's leg, because it isn't that hot yet.

Personally, I've had more than enough lockin products. So I go out of my way to avoid them these days.

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Hyper-V support?

Does anyone know if Fedora 18 works out of the box on Hyper-V? I personally found that I had to install a custom kernel to get Fedora 17 working (specifically the mouse and network cards).

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Re: Hyper-V support?

a) I don't know.

b) From some workplace tinkering I came to the conclusion that Hyper-V is some paravirtualization joke that requires a custom kernel just to have network.

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Re: Hyper-V support?

A virtualisation solution that won't run a mainstream Linux or FreeBSD out of the box is one I would avoid. Although I haven't tried with Fedora, I would guess that either qemu-kvm or virtualbox would do so without a whimper. With MS, although they are not agents of the devil, one always must wonder whether there is an unpublished agenda.

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Re: Hyper-V support?

I've had no problems running up a virtual server with Ubuntu Server 12.04 on Hyper-V from scratch, and that just worked straight out of the box. A previous versions (10.04) needed a quick tweak once base install was done to get networking going, but with 12.04 there were no issues at all.

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Happy

MATE is the future...for me anyway!

Im so happy MATE is included in the repos to start with, and is now officially supported. Its just great, simple desktop for people wanting to work on their machines in my opinion. I run MATE on my Ubuntu machine, im not bothered about the amazon stuff to be honest i turned it off when i first started running Ubuntu.

To me the interfaces mean nothing on a distro, that can be easily changed. Package manager is generally my biggest thought. I love apt-get, yum is great but i have get more dependency issues when installing RPM's i find.

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Re: MATE is the future...for me anyway!

Give Cinnamon a whirl before you make up your mind. And remember to check again in six months or so, because both Mate and Cinnamon are moving fast. A few months back when I tried Cinnamon it crashed far too often to be usable. Now it seems quite stable. Nice once again to have a choice of desk-tops that behave like desk-tops!

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There's a keyboard shortcut for Applications (Super+A iirc), but usually the Overview search should be enough.

The search-as-you-type in Nautilus still exists and DOES NOT need any clicks to activate; it was just converted to actual search instead of "jump to first match". (If Tracker is installed, it now can search the entire ~, and unlike previous Tracker incarnations, it actually works now.)

The dual-pane view was removed because Shell itself has that Vista-like "two-pane" mode. Tabbed mode still exists.

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Upgrading problems

I tried to upgrade my local server last night using the new "fedup" tool (appropriate name), since they've removed the old preupgrade method.

It downloaded over 3000 packages before prompting me to reboot to perform the upgrade. Rebooted, let the upgrade run (took about 2 hours) after which it rebooted, and then failed to boot properly. Freezes at some point fairly late in the boot process and becomes completely unresponsive.

Guess I'll be booting a live CD at the weekend to see if I can tell what happened from the logs and then do a clean install from DVD (something I've been putting off since around Fedora 10 as I didn't fancy re-configuring this machine from scratch).

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Re: Upgrading problems

Worth noting that if it's booting kernel-3.7.2-201 then a number of reports of boot hangs have come in.

3.7.2-204 appears to be the latest kernel and the problem has been fixed.

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I really don't get this RPM bashing that comes up from time to time. I have always run Mandrake/Mandriva/Mageia and have never had any sort of issue at all with RPMs. The whole point is that the package manager takes care of it for you. The fact is that RPM is every bit as good as yum or deb or anything else, it's just different.

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Well, yum and rpm are kinda connected.

"yum is an interactive, rpm based, package manager. It can automatically perform system updates, including dependency analysis and obsolete processing based on "repository" metadata. It can also perform installation of new packages, removal of old packages and perform queries on the installed and/or available packages among many other commands/services (see below). yum iis similar to other high level package managers like apt-get and smart."

"rpm is a powerful Package Manager, which can be used to build, install, query, verify, update, and erase individual software packages. A package consists of an archive of files and meta-data used to install and erase the archive files. The meta-data includes helper scripts, file attributes, and descriptive information about the package."

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Anonymous Coward

yum and rpm connected

sure they're connected in that RH includes "yum" to provide installation of RPMs, just in the same way as Mageia includes "rpmdrake". Like the original poster I also have never had any problem with dependencies using Mageia (and its precursors), so perhaps RH devs are the source of the problem by incorrectly setting up the packages in their RPMs whereas Mageia devs are getting things right.

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Megaphone

This is how we do design in German!

Oh no, the Designers from Metro School have gone all bauhaus on the poor Anaconda. WHY!

> Spherical Cow, however, proved to be a difficult beast - it is nearly three months late.

So what! Not frantic enough, is it? Have some ritalin.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Distros - quickie analysis

And you wonder why Linux isn't penetrating the desktop market more?

I got fed up with gnome 3, I did run it for over a year, but I just found that it didn't have the slickness of Windows or the bare bones functionality of Gnome 2. I got a bit cheezed off with Fedora, it's not that it's too bleeding edge, I think it was the sheer volume of updates and new versions of the OS, it's quite hard to keep up. I use Ubuntu a bit, mainly for mythtv, but I find the differences between Debian and Red Hat derived linuxes annoying. I've learned Linux once, I don't expect to have to learn it twice. Also more recent versions of ubuntu have actually been retrograde steps in terms of supporting my hardware. So, as I use RHEL and Windows at work I'm running CentOS and Windows at home. I can't be arsed to try Mint, there isn't enough time in my life to try every new Linux when, like Ubunti, it'll most likely last for a few years before some other distro comes along as the defacto linux desktop. CentOS seems a stable and supported, professional OS, so I'm sticking with it.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Distros - quickie analysis

I agree, Linux Mint is really the new Ubuntu... at least judging by the uptake. Every Ubuntu release seems to be driving away long term users, even if Unity is improving. I'm still torn between Mate and Cinnamon though.

The only thing I have strugged with Linux Mint on Cinnamon is getting VNC to work properly. It's nowhere near as simple as it is out of the box with Ubuntu, which is a matter of ticking a few boxes.

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YAVOL

@ac 11:34

You hit the nail on the head, I couldn't agree more.

I ran the Live CD and what did I find YAVOL. Yet Another Version Of Linux.

If some of the Linux Distros developers could get together for once and design an "Outsanding User Interface" then I beleive that Linux would get adopted by the masses. Choice is good but not when it splits apart all of the talent.

I have never in 20 years seen a Linux interface that was "professional", and I don't mean the ability to apply DevArt skins.

The windows inteface might be boring, I don't have to re-learn it every three weeks (W8 not included folks), and all of the applications behave in the same manner ( almost). It's something called homegenity which Linux severly lacks and I believe that it is the one of the major hurdles in breaking through to the masses.

Microsoft have published an "Interface Design Guide" in MSDN for many years, it has helped to ensure that everything feels integrated.

Linux devs have simply done as they see fit which in the end means that there has been endless versions of the same damned thing but none of which ever seem completed or coherent......

The interface should "disappear" when we working, it is there to help us get things done, not to detract our attention...

Rather than make anymmore "bleeding edge" developments it would be nice if some of the big distros got together and developed guidelines which would improve the overall interfaces....

I have come to hate Gnome and KDE, they would rather add function X than improve that which truly needs improvement.

For me the best of all worlds would be to have the MS Windows Interface and a Linux Kernel.

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Meh

Re: YAVOL

"(W8 not included folks)"

Why should it not be? It is the newest version. Its certainly not outstanding, its a joke that they have implemented that on the server 2012. Want a professional desktop use gnome2.x or KDE, both are solid, very capable and just as good as the windows UI (win7).

Gnome3 and Unity I agree are a joke and catered to the masses.

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Re: YAVOL

@Khaptain -- "I have never in 20 years seen a Linux interface that was "professional", and I don't mean the ability to apply DevArt skins."

=========

How many of those interfaces did you contribute code to? Seems like a bit of a pointless rant - I'm sure everyone here has their own likes/dislikes among the various DE's. I've been pleased with the professional integration & look of KDE since the mid 2000's, so I don't even personally find your major premise to be accurate.

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Re: Distros - quickie analysis

ANY of these distros pre-installed on desktops/laptops with fair pricing would sell well! The year of Linux on the Desktop depends on when MS loses its iron-grip on the OEMs. Of course ANdroid is also poised.

Yes they would, and then they'd mostly be returned as people discover it doesn't run Call of Duty/Word/Excel/Lightroom/Photoshop - i.e. the stuff they're used to. People buy computers to run software, not to stare at the pretty interface. Nobody who wants photoshop is going to be satisifed with gimp, even if they can figure out that gimp is what they need to install, etc etc.

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Re: YAVOL

@andy

Andy, I didn't contribute to any of those interfaces, I am an end user not a Linux Interface Developer. I also didn't contribute to MS Windows or Mac OS interfaces both which I find extremely professiona, Android to a lesser extent, I honestly don't get the point of your question.

I have been running various Linux distros on and off for the last 15 years, I like Linux for some of what it can do but not all that it can do. My personal pet peeve is the user interface and I reserve the right to express my opinion.

Linux has made huge advances over the years, certainly in terms of hardware integration, but I "personally" feel that it has not managed to develop equally well in regards to the user interface.

If I can't rant on a forum, then what's the point of the forum if it's not to communicate ones thoughts and/

or ideas. There might be a developer somewhere that will take up the challenge to prove me wrong and eventually everyone will benefit.

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Happy

Re: Distros - quickie analysis

And that's a perfectly fair approach, CentOS is effectively RHEL without the paid support.

FYI there are quite a few areas where the significant differences between Linux distros are being eliminated, particularly in terms of the file locations and methods for starting daemons etc. This has to overcome the old BSD/SVR4 differences that were perpetuated by the RH/Debian/Slackware versions over the years.

But then, if we wanted one Linux distro for all, then we might as well be running Windows.

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Linux

Don't forget Centos and Scientific Linux

To complete the distro-ology of the free Red-Hat flavour, you have to include Centos and Scientific Linux. These are both very close to the corresponding non-free RHEL version. Of the two, Centos tries very hard to be *exactly* the same as RHEL. Scientific Linux has a different kernel, but the differences are slight. Basically, if CERN needs it to do something that Red Hat don't support, then CERN patch their kernel.

As far as ordinary users are concerned, these are both almost identical to RHEL, and the most conservative option you can find. Rock-solid-stable, and still running Gnome-2. The latter is no bad thing, although I've made friends with Fedora + Cinnamon of late. I feel you can be more sure that SL will continue into the future than Centos, because CERN needs SL to stay working.

RHEL 7 is coming soon (months). It will be intersting to see whether CentOS ans/or SL are able to release their 7.0 within 2-3 months, or whether there will be more collateral damage as a result of Red Hat having to protect their commercial interests against Oracle.

BTW, for whoever was berating Fedora for not shipping with non-free software: Fedora is closely linked to Red Hat and therefore has to be VERY cautious when it comes to possible copyright infringement and lawsuits. There are repositories of all the non-free stuff that work well. You have to add them yourself, because Red Hat can't afford the risk even of shipping with them in place.

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Meh

Re: YAVOL

Nobody said you couldn't express your opinion.

But both the enterprise editions Red Hat 6 desktop and Ubuntu Desktop run gnome2 on the desktop, which gives a very stable and professional feel to the distro's. Given these are the enterprise versions that cost. But MATE which mentioned in the article is directly forked from gnome2. KDE also has been very good since its bug fixes in version 4. There are many desktop environments that offer stability with the professional feel to them.

What is it you don't find professional about them? They are full off features, especially KDE. And gnome2 is very stable along with KDE 4 fully patched (given it wasn't at the start). Why do these not feel professional?

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Boffin

Re: YAVOL

@Khaptain - well, what is it you look for as far as "professionalism" then? Look at the KDE implementation by SUSE/opensuse since the mid-2000's - consistent UI elements among all major programs, whether it be Mozilla software, OpenOffice, native KDE apps, YAST2 control center - that's been a major project to implement a consistent, polished look across a DE. And look at some of the Mint implementations - their use of 3D desktop effects, brushed chrome color and texture, development of a new menu system that's been widely adopted and emulated - these Mint guys have some very advanced ideas about how to interact with a desktop.

In fact, one desktop that seems to have taken a step back (my opinion) is this new Windows 8 implementation - why do I want to go back to the early-90's look of sharp cornered boxes, no start menu on the desktop, full-screen default apps for reading mail or playing media - these design elements actually have a lot more in common with Windows 3.1 with its old Program Manager and MS-DOS full screen programs from my perspective. I got my wife a Win8 laptop for Christmas, and now I cringe when I have to sit down with it. I've offered to install the 3rd party apps to bring back the Win7 look, but she likes it so I guess MS knows their customers better than I do.

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Re: Distros - quickie analysis

CoD?..... maybe, I've not tried it

Word - Wine.

Excel - Wine

Lightroom - Wine I believe

Photoshop - Wine (cs2 works at least, not tried with latest but if your a graphical designer you can afford to pay for windows anyway).

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Re: Distros - quickie analysis

I prefer to run Linux instead of Windows. I use Wine to run Adobe's Creative Suite as there is no native release. I'm happy with the end results. I do however have to pull you up when you suggest Wine as a panacea for missing Windows applications though.

Lets use the installation of Adobe Illustrator CS6 as an example.

- First I have to create a Wine bottle to run the installer in.

- Then I have to install a bunch of proprietary stuff just to get the installer to run (msxml3, vcrun2008, vcrun2010, atmlib, gdiplus, allfonts). I only know about this stuff because other frustrated people at AppDB have discovered it by trial and error.

- I then run the installer which will promptly crash once you click 'install'.

- Using a task manager I watch the installation processes until they stop as this is the only way I know the installation is done.

- The installation isn't done though because although it's placed all the correct registry keys it has only installed half the files.

- This means I have to start up a VM with Win XP, install Illustrator CS6 and copy across the missing files.

- Illustrator finally works in Wine, though it's vector anti-aliasing isn't as good as Windows.

This is the recommended installation method for Illustrator CS6 in Wine. I'd happily recommend Xubuntu to my less computer literate friends, I'd never recommend they install something using Wine. It just isn't ready yet.

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Unhappy

Re: YAVOL

It is extremely difficult to be very precise about what I mean by professional because is can very quickly become a very subjective "sentiment".

Some of the aspects that I would consider as being "professional":

Simplicity - Only presenting that which is absolutely essential. Example: Keeping the number of buttons to a minimum. - I have seen interfaces where there are 4 buttons in the top left hand corner of a window - the 4th being a luxury not a necessity.

Consistency - When a window/application/dialog box is opened I the OK button should always be in the same place. The default button should always be designated. Tab order should always be defined in the same manner. The user shouldn’t have to constantly scan the interface to find/or do common tasks.

Organization: Elements of a similar nature should be grouped within containers of some kind.. For example - Any and all tools that might control the Network details or material are held within the same folder/tab/toolbox.

Comprehension: The user should be capable of finding his way about the system without having to scratch their head finding hidden menus or interfaces (W8 is a nightmare for this). The user should not be required to having completed an IT Degree in order to understand where he is or what he is doing....

Assistance: A "useable " and "understandable" help system must be user friendly. The UX must provide easy access to the help system. Mouse Over Balloons can be extremely helpful in some cases...

Reactivity: The UX should be "extremely" reactive. If Skins are capable slowing it down then it needs rewritten....

Harmony: Does it look harmonious, does dragging a window feel correct. Do the little handles in the bottom left hand corner of the window convey the correct message......

The list could go on forever but I am not a good writer, nor very good at expressing my feeling in written word.

There is a final element which I feel to be the most important, "The Feeling - The Feedback". For me it is the mixture of all of the above elements, it is the harmony in which all of the elements work together.

I don't want to struggle with a UX, I should be at ease, it should feel as though the UX is a help not a hindrance. Do the icons and the Fonts convey a desire to continue or do they make the UX feel like a child’s toy.. Does the UX feel like it was thrown together from a jumble of disparate ideas or does it feel as though it was carefully thought out........

Personally I feel that MS have succeeded in these tasks and unfortunately I feel that Linux has not. I have tried a multitude of Linux Windows Manager and seldom do I find the "harmony" between "all" of the elements that I cited. As I mentioned before I would love to see the MS Interface on a Linux kernel, it really would be the best of both worlds.

I read an article once that stated that MS have spent literally Billions studying interface concept and design, I can easily believe this. Windows 8 I consider an exception as it has been developed for platforms other than the good ol PC screen/keyboard/mouse.

Much of what I have mentioned is the responsibility of application programmers and not kernel developers or UX developers but Linux does not possess the restraints or conditions which would entice them to remain homogenous with other devs. It’s a free system where people are free to choose from themselves, unfortunately this does not equal a positive outcome.

I don't skin my interfaces or modify them in any other way than selecting a non-distracting colour scheme. I usually try and get the Linux interfaces to match where possible the Linux interfaces.

On a daily basis I run XP, Windows 7 and Windows 8 running on 2 desktop machines and 1 VM. At home I run Windows 7, a Debian VM and my NAS which requires more CLI skills than mouse skills. in the past I have had the opportunity to work with many different UXs, Windows, a multitude of Linux UXs, Solaris, OS2, Mac OS, QNX, Android...... and if I had to remain on only one of these UXs it would be W7, which I feel adheres the most to what I imagine a UX should be.

I am not pro Microsoft but I definitely rate their UX as being far more "professional" than any of the others. I hate MACs but I would put their UX in 2nd place.

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Re: Distros - quickie analysis

I also use rhel at work centos at home for servers, and like the words of a previous poster, i use mageia, for my desktop. This maybe the right linux desktop for you, especialy if you prefer kde.

Mageia actualy uses urpmi/e/q in place of yum, a command line much like yum.

Peter

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Linux

Re: Don't forget Centos and Scientific Linux

"As far as ordinary users are concerned, these are both almost identical to RHEL, and the most conservative option you can find."

I would just add that CentOS/Scientific Linux 6.x has incremental updates and support until 2017. CentOS 6 is the XP of the Linux world.

And a mention for Springdale Linux (aka PUIAS Linux), another RHEL clone that has been around for a long time. Some of the maths specific repositories may be useful to some, and they separate out their additional packages to avoid overlap.

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Re: YAVOL

@Khaptain: I give you proper credit, so this might be too long. I find your response honest and despite your feelings, well written. 9 years ago, I would not only agree with what you say, but also feel it was absolutely correct. Do NOT take this the wrong way, but in a nutshell... DO NOT TAKE THIS THE WRONG WAY!

The problem is you.

"It takes all types"

First, I think you'd agree that a graphic designer, sys. admin, and a secretary will have different tastes and needs. I think we can agree on that. And the rest of my post might be irrelevant if we can agree on that, because we then understand it takes all types.

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks, or to forget them."

Now, when you mentioned 4 buttons being in the top left, I assume you mean the window controls. For instance you are used to the popular 3... min, max, close. The first Linux desktop I used actually only had 2, blind and close. I never figured out how to change it due to the very poor help system. Several years after that, I ran one that had 5, I immediately got rid of 2 and was back to the popular 3. Now, today, I have 7..."Always on top", "Always on bottom", "On all desktops", "Blind", min, max, close. I have them, because I found them, I learned them, now they are part of the tools. Since I now know them, I understand you can't teach an old dog new tricks, or to forget them. BTW, who decided the popular 3 was all there was to the essentials?

"To whom it may concern"

When you mention the default dialog box, I thought well he is sort of correct. Remember though, that on windows all programs call from the same library, because windows only has one desktop. On Linux Desktops, many programs are written on many desktops, and need to be portable to others (mostly). Each desktop has to behave to each program to whom it may concern (QT, GTK, etc..). I don't want to say much more, but KDE is built on QT, in QT, you will not have this problem much. Well, you will, but just to the same extent on windows. Not all windows, err, in windows, have consistency. Some for instance share what is logical but still inconsistent, the behavior of basically defaulting to no where.

As far as the organization, well, understandably you haven't used a Linux desktop recently, but just know it is becoming too organized. Seriously, to the KDE folks, how many more things can you put under "System"! I'm waiting to see "lolcats" in there one day.

For the rest. You refer to Harmony, well almost all current Linux distros fit your description of this. Comprehension, well, you do have to use the system, it's not like the navigation around the system is given at birth. Assistance, it's there. Plenty of help if you don't for some reason can't get to the internet, but if you can...it's aplenty. Reactivity, this depends on your idea of a desktop. I mean, do you run Active Desktop on windows? You could, but...

Your comment about WIndows 7 is specific to you. I feel explorer.exe alone is too far gimped for my needs. For instance, the block select when using a mouse in details view...horrible!! You also have forgotten what Windows used to offer. For instance, have you ever read the "Help" dialog when you click on a .chm...WTF? Have you ever tried to search for all files that end in .xyz created on this date...how complicated is that now! And the classic, have you uninstalled that browser called Internet Explorer...if you never plan to use it, can you? Now keep in mind those few things, now try to find help on windows for them, GOOD LUCK!

We could go farther, but then it would be specific to my needs. But I'll sneak a few in. WTF is up with 22^2 parameters to so many winapi's? How come I can't find a list of _ALL_ system calls? Who at Microsoft said WINSOCK 2 was a good idea?

You're a windows person, just stick with Windows. But do know that if a day every comes where you want something else, it is being polished every day for you :-).

P.S. Yes, let's do leave WIndows 8 out of this :-).

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Re: YAVOL

@MyBackDoor

No worries, I don't take tio the wrong way and I actually agree on most of the points that you make or at least I understand your point of view.

I am a Windows person ( with Linux on the side - currently Debian ) and I doubt that I will ever change unless Microsoft decides to add a new Distro, lol. Now that would be interesting....

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Meh

It may have been released, but it's still a bit flakey.

So far I've only tested using VMware but some time during the beta phase something went seriously wrong with GNOME in that it fails to boot in to the logon session. Even now, using the official Live CD or the full ISO in a fresh install in a VM it won't complete the boot if GNOME is the chosen desktop - which is awkward since it's the default desktop. KDE or xfce install fine.

One other nit I came across. The official install uses kernel 3.6.10 but the already available patches will upgrade to 3.7.2. The kernel headers installed for 3.7.2 are missing some header files. For a VMware installation where you want to add the VMware tools, the lack of a version.h will stop VMware tools being installed.

To my mind they've got fixated on the fact that they were 3 months late according to their initial release date and pushed it out to just get it out there. It's still a work in progress.

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Huh. Maybe that explains my upgrade problems. I don't use Gnome as the desktop, but GDM is the display manager being used.

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