back to article Texas schoolgirl loses case over RFID tag suspension

A federal court has ruled against the Texan teenager who was challenging her suspension for refusing to wear an RFID tag, despite objections on religious and privacy grounds. Last November, Andrea Hernandez, 15, was expelled from the John Jay Science and Engineering Academy in San Antonio, Texas after refusing to take part in a …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

Silver badge

I'm wondering ...

"The school offered to let her use a lanyard without an RFID tag, ..."

What would be the point of that?

1
0
Silver badge
Big Brother

Re: I'm wondering ...

I wondered the same - if she can go without RFID tracking then why the hell not without the lanyard?

Or would that give other kids the idea they could be free of big-bother oppression, which clearly will never do?

14
3
Irk

Re: I'm wondering ...

Probably IDs her so she can get lunch and such/have a general campus ID without actually being physically tracked.

3
0
Irk

Re: I'm wondering ...

@Paul Crawford: A lot of schools use ID cards to pay for lunches instead of cash. Even my primary schoolers are doing it. Then again they have their own debit cards (accounts and cards controlled by their mom) so the kids are used to the idea of paying with cards. The meal account thing also helps parents track what the kids bought and how much they spend, it can automatically be reloaded with funds, etc. That part's modern convenience.

I have no idea what the ID does for BATHROOM breaks though, do they have card swipe locks on the bathroom doors or something?

3
0
Coat

Re: I'm wondering ...

Ah, getting the kids ready for a cashless society by training them to be dependent upon little pieces of plastic. Sounds like an excellent training ground to teach the more advanced of them to become hackers by reprogramming their little pieces of plastic. ;-)

As for the bathroom access, I still say that a few mysterious brown piles and yellow puddles would remove that requirement VERY rapidly (although the guys are probably better equipped to create those mysterious yellow puddles more easily; hey, is that a case for discrimination?!?). ;-)

Dave

P.S. I'll get my coat. It's the one with the waterproof pockets and the RFID card duplicator in it.

12
0
Boffin

Re: I'm wondering ...

She would still wear the lanyard with still has her photo ID but not the tracking chip. All students would need to comply with this or it fails to be applied to all students and thus is not considered profiling or some other kind of BS. Fact is, with the state of today's US society, this kind of monitoring in US schools is one way to help ensure students are where they are supposed to be as well as helps with security on school grounds. Maybe they just need to setup camera's on campus everywhere (except locker rooms and showers of course). Even private schools have instances of violence and the number one goal is that everyone...everyone should have a feeling of safety while on campus. If a student does not wish to comply, then they are free to leave and get their education else ware or be home schooled. There are points where the safety/security of the many outweighs the freedoms of the few. You can't accommodate every little want and desire.

5
14
Bronze badge
Big Brother

Re: I'm wondering ...

Using the RFID instead of cash? Just like chips in Las Vegas, it makes it easier to spend money because it's not money the kids are using. They aren't even using chips that represent money, they are using NOTHING to represent money.

Prepares the kids for deep credit card debt later in life.

OTOH, since these RFID tags deduct money out of an account, can it be argued that the school is acting as a bank without a banking license?

5
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ...

@BillG - Yes, it prepares kids to use cashless cash, it allows them to understand that cash is not just physical, it won't prepare them for credit as they won't be getting credit. Crucially however, it also allows kids not to have their dinner money stolen from them.

It also can't be argued that the school is acting as a bank without a banking license, because they're not acting as a bank. They're not allowing any banking services, they certainly won't be using the word "deposit", you may as well argue that any school where dinner money is paid at the start of the week is a bank.

4
0
Silver badge
Meh

2020AD our future

New legislation: section 20/23/1847/329-234/ AW

The Government has declared that the population will be micro chipped, DNA sampled and tattoo'd with an identification number.

This is being implemented to protect your freedoms and your rights and to protect the population against as yet unknown threats and dissent. You do not have the right to appeal. You have nothing to fear from your Government if you have nothing to hide.

Failure to comply will result in you being declared a non-citizen entitled to no state facilities.

You cooperation is appreciated.

OUR FUTURE

23
2
Silver badge
Big Brother

Re: I'm wondering ...

I have no problem with some sort of electronic ID for paying for meals, but I can't see why she has to ware it all of the time, nor do I see why it should EVER have been something related to visiting the bathroom.

Really, how come for decades we all managed to grow up in schools with little more than a blackboard & chalk for technology? It seems this is a self-serving waste of money attempting to deal with societies ills by walking to an Orwellian nightmare.

13
0
Bronze badge

Re: ...training them to be dependent upon little pieces of plastic

There is another side to this - bullies stealing lunch money. At many schools this has been an ongoing problem; and by eliminating the need to carry coin, you thwart the bully. And, as the article points out, you get a summary of purchases; which could be used by interested parents to make sure their kids eat healthy meals, as opposed to the sugar laden crap found in so many school lunchroom vending machines.

1
3
Silver badge

Re: I'm wondering ...

"I have no problem with some sort of electronic ID for paying for meals, but I can't see why she has to ware it all of the time, nor do I see why it should EVER have been something related to visiting the bathroom."

The most obvious reason for the bathroom is to keep people who shouldn't be at the school out of the bathrooms. Ex students, drug dealers, creepy old men, Westbo Baptist Church members etc

3
0
Silver badge

Re: ...training them to be dependent upon little pieces of plastic

Fatman: There is another side to this - bullies stealing lunch money. At many schools this has been an ongoing problem; and by eliminating the need to carry coin, you thwart the bully.

This doesn't solve the bully problem - they are simply accommodating it. There will still be bullies, they just won't get other people's lunch money.

4
0
Silver badge

Re: I'm wondering ...

"The school offered to let her use a lanyard without an RFID tag, ..."

What would be the point of that?

The lanyard holds a photo ID, to prove who she is, and is indeed a member of that school.

If not for that, any bloody kid could come off the street into the school and get free education.

We can't have that now can we?

3
0
Silver badge

Re: I'm wondering ...

"I have no idea what the ID does for BATHROOM breaks though, do they have card swipe locks on the bathroom doors or something?"

I guess they have RFID checkers in the classroom door, so it won't open unless you have your RFID. It might also serve to track you actually going to the bathroom vs. just skipping out class.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ...

@Irk,

Maybe a number 2 costs more than a #1. Don't know how they could tell the difference with a female though.

How privacy is being ignored by the court is beyond me. Maybe the judge should have their bathrooms breaks announced on the court website. "Please standby, the judge is experiencing technical difficulties."

1
0
Pint

Re: I'm wondering ...

If I'm not mistaken teens find ways around everything isn't this just another stupid attempt to show ridiculous force to make these guys attend when actually the school should be making sure they're teaching things people actually want to learn.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ...

The last paragraph of the article mentions "stay at the magnet program", so the tracking is probably done using the magnetic tape strip (like on a credit card) when one needs to open a bathroom door, etc.

1
0

Re: 2020AD our future

Something tells me the guillotine will see the light of day once more before all this comes to fruition. At least, I damn well hope so.

2
0
Thumb Down

Re: I'm wondering ...

I believe a magnet program is a program for more advanced learners - the idea being that you attract the smart and/or enthusiastic kids and the rest will follow. So it's also somewhat of a "comply or go back to the less advanced classes and be bored/lose opportunities".

1
0
Bronze badge

why it should EVER have been something related to visiting the bathroom...

You carry your ID while out of the classroom. Every person in a public area is required to carry ID. You carry your ID while in the corridors. You need to use the passageways to get to the bathroom.

It's not the bathroom that requires the ID, it's the public area outside where you need ID.

3
0
Bronze badge

magnet program

A "magnet program" is an advanced studies, or special studies, or sport or technology or specialist program. It's a "magnet" program because it draws students from outside the school district.

In this case, if she doesn't want to go to the the school with the RFID tag, she can go back to her local school -- which would probably not be able to exclude her so easily.

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ... privacy

For the comments on privacy, from what I've read in the news, there is no such thing for minors in America.

Parents would go to prison for recording their own children. School employees recording children secretly on laptops? totally legit apparently. :(

1
0
Big Brother

Re: I'm wondering ...

It's called Operant Conditioning. Getting her to accept the lanyard represents the actual item so closely that it becomes more socially 'normalised' to wear the genuine article. This is a pretty common group behavioural effect that most advertisers seek to exploit, with great success.

4
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: 2020AD our future

Yeh because the UK's introduction of a national identity card worked SO well in 2009.

1
0
Thumb Down

Re: I'm wondering ...

Welcome to "Idiocracy"

1
0
Silver badge

Re: ...training them to be dependent upon little pieces of plastic

How big of a problem could this possibly? When I was a kid you fought with the asshat that was trying to steal your money. It is too bad that we are teaching children to depend on someone else to take care of them.

1
3

Re: I'm wondering ...

The most obvious reason for the bathroom is to keep people who shouldn't be at the school out of the bathrooms. Ex students, drug dealers, creepy old men, Westbo Baptist Church members etc

Those people should already have been stopped at the perimeter.

2
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ...

I am wondering just how much this will accelerate and increase the school drop out rate......

The USA leads the educational world with the highest "fuck you and left school" rates, as does it's percentage of population in prison.

Pretty soon the USA will have more people in prison than on the streets.

"Heyyyy instead of sending the kids to school - who have the modern plague of Attention Disorders, we can send them to a state run concentration camp!"

1
0
Bronze badge

Re: I'm wondering ...

"What would be the point of that?"

So she looks like she is wearing the RFID and the other students don't realise that the RFID is pointless, intrustive and optional.

3
0

Re: I'm wondering ...

"...it also allows kids not to have their dinner money stolen from them"

Instead the kid will be forced to wait in a bush somewhere outside while the bully uses their RFID card to pay for their lunch.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: I'm wondering ...

At my son's secondary school, the toilets don't have doors. The cubicles do, but they're arranged in an alcove off of the main corridor with a discreet camera covering the open area. Cuts down on bullying oportunities apparently.

0
0
Irk
Facepalm

She doesn't have to wear the RFID

Taking it all the way to court to fight the RFID requirement seems like a waste of a court case when the school waved the requirement.

1
1
Silver badge
Headmaster

Here. You dropped this:

i

17
0
Boffin

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID

It is, but that's what P.O.S. US Lawyers live for. Wasting others time and getting paid for it.

0
1
Silver badge

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID

There are two issues being tested:

1. Do I have to wear RFID (no - the school has waved the requirement)

2. Should I have to participate in a very invasive tracking scheme? (currently yes)

Linking religion ("the mark of the beast") to this is spurious, but the issue is the same - it is a system which prevents them literally from "buying or selling (or going to the toilet) without the mark." It isn't just any mark, its a privatised surveillance and access control mark which also monitors purchasing behaviour and it isn't voluntary.

I'm all for tech, but not even the bank I worked for required that sort of "security." Whatever the issues in this case, I'm not sure we should be accustomising children to this sort of thing. If nothing else, it doesn't help to teach them the value of money.

I think we're a bit beyond common sense however. Now its down to the pride of the organisation ("we won't change our system for the benefit of those who take us to court") vs the misguided individual.

11
0
Silver badge

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID

I'm all for tech, but not even the bank I worked for required that sort of "security." Whatever the issues in this case, I'm not sure we should be accustomising children to this sort of thing.

I teaches the children to be submissive to authority. Some people think this is a good thing. I think it causes psychological harm. Respect and submission are not the same thing. Respect is earned - submission is enforced.

5
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID

@p lee

This actually sounds remarkably similar to the security system the bank I work at uses, aside from the purchase issue.

It used to do that, too but it stopped a long time ago. but back then the security was just on the access points. nowadays, since its been made RFID, every door has a security lock on it allowing tracking anywhere in the building.

On the plus side, good old British politeness completely ruins the system for tracking purposes. Everyone is constantly holding doors open for others so most people barely ever actually have to present a card. The only guaranteed time is when crossing from one half of the building to the other where there are gates that, in theory, only allow one person through per swipe. The reality is slightly less clear cut though due to their incredible state of disrepair

4
0
Silver badge
Meh

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID - P. Lee

You say that linking religion is spurious*, but have you read the judgment? According to the judge, the principal of the school cites only two examples of why this intrusive system is a success:

"Very recently, a parent of a special needs student was concerned that the child did not get on the bus after school and the school staff was able to pull the sensor readings to determine when the student was on campus and when he left, thus reassuring the parent. On another occasion, a building was evacuated and campus administrators were able to quickly identify and locate students' badges that had been left in the building during the evacuation." (pp4-5)

So, this system is wonderful for passing the buck and saying that a student with special needs wasn't on the grounds, but wandering the streets somewhere (very reassuring!), and for finding lost ID cards (not students, note)! Somehow, I don't actually see the value (except for the liability issue).

I think the judge has dropped the ball on this one - none of the arguments actually stack up to create such a need that everyone should be RFID tracked to this extent.

* I have absolutely no time for religious cranks, but the rational side should be better!

1
0

Re: She doesn't have to wear the RFID

A lot of place I know do this, one off the top my head it data centers will implement this to track techies. I guess I don't see how this is much different than standard card reader systems? I haven't read anything in the article or others which suggest some geek with a hardon is watching the whereabouts of all the student. My guess is they card them going in and out of school, and maybe at other various location and once a day the school correlates it to attendance, breaks, etc.

0
0
Silver badge

St Trinians?

I would have thought that if there were 200 other students who objected to the system, they could merely swap tags whenever they passed each other, or before popping outside for a cigarette (or making a rendezvous with Sid James to place a bet on the horses). What happened to a teacher making a roll-call at the start of each class?

5
0
Silver badge

Re: St Trinians?

You can't swap tags if they can be used for purchases. I presume there's a pin as well, but that isn't much security in a closed environment where these things are used by people you meet every day.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

To be literal or not to be literal...

"And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads,"

If the Bible is to be taken strictly literally, how is a lanyard hanging around one's neck the same as one's forehead or right hand?

Agreed, figuratively, it is an _excellent_ match. But the same folk insist again and again that the Bible is to be taken literally, not figuratively.

Devil's advocate (of course)

4
0
Silver badge

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

You have to remember, this is the southern US we're talking about...

According to them, the bible is only to be taken literally when it condones discrimination against other races, women, people with different sexual preferences, etc.

The rest of the time, figuratively is just fine, as long as it can be used to further whatever the cause is. For example, this cause is to be able to skip out of class without being found out (or something)

6
3
Silver badge

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

It's been my observation that people who insist "That the Bible (or the Talmud, or the Quran, or the [insert holy book of What/Whoever somebody worships here], is literally true", usually mean, "Whatever I choose it to mean, and I can prove it by selectively picking random bits from it that can be bent to mean what I want and ignoring the bits that don't, or ever plainly state that I am wrong."

The Human mind is a delightfully peculiar instrument of self deception, (That's why I've never missed mine since I "lost" it.*)

*Of course, it might have simply let me believe that I lost it, but... eh...

13
1

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

http://bayimg.com/oaIoOAaeF

1
0
Silver badge

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

"descriptive or advocating"

Weasel words.

Also, all on the TV, every night, purely for "fun."

1
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

"Hallowed are the Ori"

2
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

My Holy Book is Mr D. Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming"

or possibly "Design Patterns"

or possibly the local takeaway menu

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: To be literal or not to be literal...

A mark would usually be more political or socially apparent. A tag/badge/key for travel and purchasing seems no more than the "tag/key/badge" we use called coins. So I too would guess it's some other type of "mark" people would expect. Such as a political badge (which this rf tag is not from what I can see).

0
0

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.

Forums