Feeds

back to article Open-source attack dog enters Ballmer's inner ring

The head of Microsoft’s research has quietly stepped aside ahead of his retirement next year to join CEO Steve Ballmer's inner circle. Craig Mundie, a 20-year Microsoft veteran, is now a senior advisor to Ballmer after six years as the company's chief research and strategy officer. Mundie took that role as Microsoft co-founder …

COMMENTS

This topic is closed for new posts.

Page:

Linux

Libre/Open Office?

It may not be a mass market, but I would call it powerful, easy-to-use software broadly accessible to consumers. I use it in my own office daily, and can't think of a reason to go back to Microsoft.

20
4
FAIL

Re: Libre/Open Office?

As long as interoperability is not a concern, I can see that approach working and in fact, I use Open Office (actually Libre Office) at home. However, as soon as I need to open documents I've received from external sources or send documents to recipients elsewhere, I've found Open/Libre Office isn't up to the task. In fact, just today I sent an Open Office spreadsheet saved in Microsoft xlsx format to a coworker using MS Office, and yet again it wasn't handled well. MS Office claimed the document was corrupt (but could attempt to repair it), and once opened the fonts and other formatting were different. I get the same types of issues with Word and Excel, in both directions.

Yes, I know a lot of the fault can be laid at MS feet for not publishing the file spec for their document files, but that doesn't change the end result.

Oh, and the UI is garbage. MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what Open/Liubre Office has today.

4
16
Bronze badge
FAIL

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"Yes, I know a lot of the fault can be laid at MS feet for not publishing the file spec for their document files, but that doesn't change the end result."

...?

Except they did? Internally Office Open XML files are just a load of XML files, with other bits and pieces, zipped up. The specs are standardised by three bodies.

3
18
Alert

Re: Libre/Open Office?

I did not know that. In that case, the fault would apper to lie directly at the feet of the Open/Libre Office developers.

2
9
Anonymous Coward

Re: Libre/Open Office?

> Oh, and the UI is garbage. MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what Open/Liubre Office has today.

Actually MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what MS Office has today, too...

28
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Libre/Open Office?

Microsoft did publish a spec alright but they do not plan to implement it fully until this year or next. What Office uses and produces now is an intermediate file format which was never _fully_ specced as the intermediate spec allowed for binary blobs for which only MS Office knew how to handle.

Most likely once MS Office conforms to their own full ISO standard that Libre Office xlsx spreadsheet will open perfectly fine in MS Office.

18
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"Except they did? Internally Office Open XML files are just a load of XML files, with other bits and pieces, zipped up. The specs are standardised by three bodies."

Hmmmm. I seem to remember a big old bun fight when this got pushed through. I seem to remember that no one, not even Microsoft, could pick up the standard and write software that could actually use the standard. Having said that, things might have moved on since it was introduced and the whole thing has been tidied up, but I doubt it.

9
0
Silver badge
Trollface

Re: Libre/Open Office?

> MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what Open/Liubre Office has today.

LOLNO

Also, learn2spell

3
11
FAIL

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"Except they did? Internally Office Open XML files are just a load of XML files, with other bits and pieces, zipped up. The specs are standardised by three bodies."

Pffft.

MS crippled ISO in their haste to push this through, they stuffed the voting committees full of single issue voters and forced OOXML through as a standard, just so they could say they had one. The voters then stopped turning up, and ISO basically broke down due to non-attendance of a high proportion of members. Meanwhile the standard as published wasn't even supported by MS *and* contained many things that were ill defined so only MS could support them.

ODF is an open standard OOXML is a trap, and a deliberately confusingly named one.

26
0

Re: Libre/Open Office?

i used to enjoy debate on the reg forums but now all there is ,is Microsoft funded trolls. How much do you get paid per post for rubbishing FOSS. Hint you are obvious despite yourselves.

11
2

This post has been deleted by its author

Anonymous Coward

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"i used to enjoy debate on the reg forums but now all there is ,is Microsoft funded trolls. How much do you get paid per post for rubbishing FOSS. Hint you are obvious despite yourselves."

To be fair and balanced, which you were not, it's possible that Microsoft shills are hereabouts. But - and this stands true for anyone throwing the much overused by some 'shill' accusation - if you are willing to cast that aspersion you should be willing to present the evidence to support it or stop boring us with it.

I am no particular fan of Microsoft, being primarily a BSD user, but I would call you on your aspersion asking for something other than bias, prejudice and here-say to back your assertion. (I have yet to see anyone throwing such accusations actually be able to support their argument - although I may be persuaded make an exception to the rule for 'RICHTO').

Back in the real world, those of us not on an ideological technology jihad, just get on with our work quietly and try not to espouse personal bias wrapped in shill accusations.

Back in April you stated, "Lets ban the word Freetard from The Reg". Cool. But let's be grown up and ban 'shill' and and the words "Microsoft funded trolls" too eh?

7
2
Linux

Re: Libre/Open Office?

The disturbing thing is they're probably doing it off their own bat, without any MS involvement whatsoever. Its like football fans who get into extreme fights with other teams' fans - no-one pays them to do that either, or Republican wingnuts in the US.You don't have to pay fanatics - real MS shills would be more pro-PR types than this bunch of knee-jerk nutcases.

11
0
Thumb Up

Re: Also, learn2spell

I spell just fine, it's the typing that gets me.

0
0
Thumb Up

Re: Actually MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what MS Office has today, too...

I agree. Never did like that ribbon UI.

4
0
Trollface

Re: Libre/Open Office?

Except that you don't need to save documents in Microsoft proprietary formats these days. Recent versions of Microsoft Office can open ODF files, as can Google Docs, Libre Office, Lotus Notes, and pretty much any office software worth its weight in salt. You see, you're stuck in the old formats paradigm where everything has to be sent in Microsoft Office formats. It's simply not the case anymore. And now when Microsoft Office improperly handles ODF, you redirect your vitriol at them. It's a win-win, you still get to complain, and ODF becomes the defacto Office suite file format ;)

3
1
ZAM
FAIL

Re: Libre/Open Office?

Yes they published just wonderful specs that included gems like format as done in Word 2000. Really helpful, NOT! If you actually look at the history of the standardization process for Office Open XML you will see how screwed up the process was. There was nothing standard about the process of getting the approval. MS abused a process that was not designed to protect against the likes of MS.

8
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Libre/Open Office?

@Kissinghtecarpet - Can you not see that there is a far more shoutey Linux/FOSS representative here than MS fans? Just because someone likes something you don't, doesn't mean that they're out to get you or that they're fanatics.

Personally I like Windows, Linux, UNIX, Tandem, z/OS and many others, it's the rabid, unthinking fanboys that get to me, ironically they're actually the worst thing about OSes and the worst advert for their communities.

5
4
Anonymous Coward

Re: Actually MS Office UI was better 10 years ago than what MS Office has today, too...

I didn't like the ribbon, then I used it for a year or so, still not a big fan of it, until our company was bought and the guys who bought us used office 2003, I now know that I really like the ribbon in comparison.

0
1

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"just today I sent an Open Office spreadsheet saved in Microsoft xlsx format to a coworker using MS Office, and yet again it wasn't handled well"

Why not use the older .xls format?

3
1
Bronze badge
Boffin

Re: Libre/Open Office?

You tell me how is it that Ribbon is better than the old UI. It's extremely unintuitive and makes looking for something even harder. What I could previously find almost instantly now takes seconds to find.

3
1
Anonymous Coward

How to download Libre Office ..

"just today I sent an Open Office spreadsheet saved in Microsoft xlsx format to a coworker using MS Office, and yet again it wasn't handled well"

Direct them to the Libre Office web site and the download link ...

2
3

Re: Libre/Open Office?

"Except that you don't need to save documents in Microsoft proprietary formats these days. Recent versions of Microsoft Office can open ODF files,..."

"....and ODF becomes the defacto Office suite file format ;)"

Yes but that ain't gonna happen. The vast majority of corporate desktops and notebooks are using MS Office and save in an MS format by default. Why would Microsoft change the default formats of Office to benefit potential rivals? I suspect they will continue to warn their users that "this document may contain features that are not compatible with this format", which will help maintain the status quo.

This means that LO has to try to work with native MS Office formats and Microsoft are clearly going to do there best to make that as difficult as possible.

Things were much simpler when Word and Excel were the underdogs to Wordperfect and Lotus 123. Now, it is probably nearly impossible to provide a truly compatible alternative to MS Office, especially where complex documents using macros are involved. Added to this, Microsoft are not so stupid as to ignore the threat to MS Office from Libre Office (and by implication, to the Windows desktop from Linux) and will likely continue to move the goalposts. I like Libre Office and it seems to be the closest competitor to MS Office but I can't see it displacing the incumbent unless Microsoft completely miss the point.

1
1
FAIL

Re: Direct them to the Libre Office web site and the download link ...

As if that's going to happen in most corporate environments.

0
0
Meh

Re: Why not use the older .xls format?

No particular reason other than I know they are on Office 2010.

0
0
Bronze badge

Re: ban 'shill' and and the words "Microsoft funded trolls"

OK, then, I will just substitute "Microsoft funded (delusional) evangelists" then.

Better?

0
1
Coat

Open source attack dog?

Isn't that the next Ubuntu release? Rabid Rottweiler?

11
0

Re: Open source attack dog?

Nope, its Raunchy Rhinoceros.

0
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Open source attack dog?

Rampant Rabbit obviously.

0
0
Bronze badge
Linux

Re: Isn't that the next Ubuntu release? Rabid Rottweiler?

NO, actually, its Raring Ringtail, due out in April.

0
0
Silver badge

LAMP servers

is what most of the net is running on.

2
0
Coat

Eric Rudder

Steering the ship

0
0
Silver badge
Facepalm

Turn that FUD valve!

> The establishment of Trustworthy Computing changed how Microsoft and the entire computer industry thinks about security and privacy

Implying they weren't playing desperate catch-up then, being the typhoid Mary of the whole of the industry. Serious problems remain today.

One should also not forget that "Trustworthy Computing" was in a good part about protecting the content providers from the end user, not the end user from security problems.

19
0
Silver badge

Re: Turn that FUD valve!

One should also not forget that "Trustworthy Computing" was in a good part about protecting the content providers from the end user, not the end user from security problems.

Yes. What the article should have referred to was the Secure Development Lifecycle, which did lead to substantial improvement in Microsoft's code (particularly in the rate of vulnerabilities in new features). That was largely the work of actual security researchers like Howard and Leblanc. While I'm not uncritical of everything Howard and Leblanc and the other major MS security people did, they're serious, smart folks who cleaned a lot of muck out of those Augean Stables.

While, as you say, problems remain, at least Microsoft's improved to the point where other firms (Adobe, Oracle courtesy of Java) often outpace it in the new-vulnerability stakes.

1
0
Silver badge
Linux

Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

This need repeating.

Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

Microsoft apologists really, really want that to be somehow erased from everyone's memory, and never appear in the same sentence as Windows 8 whilst they are running a multi million pound advertising campaign for it.

Ooops.

See what I did there ?

15
1
Bronze badge
Thumb Up

Re: Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

Mr Ballmer was right in a way - Linux is a cancer:- It grows uncontrollably (not controlled by a single corporation) and seems unstoppable (which is not what Mr Ballmer would like).

In the case of Linux, I would say that is a good thing for competition. Only yesterday "Ubuntu on a phone" was one of the top 10 articles on the BBC news website for most of the day. I want one already.

7
0
Linux

Re: Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

I'm sure there's a less pejorative & needlessly unpleasant term than "Cancer" for the phenomenon you describe.

But its true that Ballmer called Linux a “Cancer” Really classy,Steve,eh?

4
0
Anonymous Coward

Re: Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

Yeah, but at least Steve doesn't give people the finger, and bawl out his developers in public forums, as Linus does.

Personally I think they're probably both rather difficult people to work for, but let's not pretend they're even a patch on Steve Jobs, who was by all accounts "really very challenging indeed" to work for.

1
2
Anonymous Coward

Re: Ballmer called Linux a “cancer”

Yeah, but at least Steve doesn't give people the finger, and bawl out his developers in public forums, as Linus does.

No, Steve has at least the sense to destroy chairs in private. Just wonder what the cause was, though.

As for what Linus did, yes, that was IMHO incredibly stupid as it broke rule 1 of decent man management (and general people skills): praise in public, correct discretely. It is actually almost irrelevant what the issue was - you just don't do this because it makes (a) almost certain this team member will leave and (b) on seeing this, potential new joiners may reconsider.

3
0
Bronze badge

Re: what Linus did, yes, that was IMHO incredibly stupid as it broke rule 1 of decent man management

On this we agree.

One of the hallmarks of a good boss is know when, and where to criticize a subordinates fuck up.

Unless it is absolutely necessary to make an example of someone, save the ass chewing for a private session.

Being perceived as a loose cannon on a roll, is a morale killer.

I know, I used to work for one. And $DEITY, I hated the way he treated people, including myself. It was one uncalled-for public ass chewing that caused me to quit on the spot. Eventually his antics got the attention of higher ups, and he ended up being frog-marched out the door.

1
0
Silver badge

Great IntelAIgent Game Changers of Novel Canon

while promoting .NET, Mundie said the open-source software model: “Isn’t successful in building a mass market and making powerful, easy-to-use software broadly accessible to consumers.”

Well, he is duty bound to say that, promoting .NET, but it isn't the Truth as Cast and Found in the Alternate Reality Game where open-source software models are successful in building a mass market and making powerful, easy-to-use software broadly accessible to consumers.

Where Be Ye Dreamers...... the Plains are Yours to Build Upon Again with Manic Ubuntu Mars NET Rockets/Shuttleworth Space Craft which are only AIMessage away for All the Help that Springs Eternal in Deserving Circles .... and that is AI Virtual Power Source Generator and Sterling Stirling Engine for Drivers with Program Fluffers Enhancing Peformance, Displaying Direction for Erotic Capture and Sweet Sticky Submission to Surrender to the Omniscient Power of True Freedom.

I think you will definitely find that 2013 is gonna be nothing like 2012.

So what do y'all want Systems to Provide? What Content does One Offer for Consideration towards Realisation and Media Presentation via Alternative Traditional Channels.

What is your Master Future Plan with Power and Control of Everything, for that is a program available today which purports to have private experience in public practice of such virtuous viral eventing ...... which are the smarter memes which attract inquistive attention and all due dude respect for shock and awe revelations.

0
2
Silver badge
Trollface

Yawn

>Ballmer called Linux a “cancer” – while promoting .NET

Wow he really knows how to back a winning horse huh? Remember when Microsoft was supposedly betting the company on .Net? Funny how they never really ate their own dog food and wrote any of their own software on .Net. Oh well good thing Ballmer is doubling down on an even worse technology (Metro or the artist formerly known as). As this article shows the one thing Ballmer is extremely good at is eliminating and neutering internal rivals which is what this move was probably about.

2
5
Silver badge
FAIL

Re: Yawn

Before a paid troll or fanboi pips up yes parts of VS 2010 are written in .Net (WPF). It also might be why VS goes unresponsible and its window greys out every now and then while it searches unnecessarily deep in windows libraries for god knows what or is by far the most sluggish in general VS to date.

1
5
FAIL

Re: Yawn

Indeed, some of the VS2010 UI no longer works as well as previous versions because they're using WPF.

Notice Office is still a native C++ COM app for example

0
1
Anonymous Coward

Re: Yawn

" Funny how they never really ate their own dog food and wrote any of their own software on .Net"

They have in fact, over the years, produced quite a range of applications in managed code. Really, you should do a little research before posting such ill-informed rubbish.

2
4
Silver badge
Thumb Down

Re: Yawn

Name some. Read the articles below as they sum up the situation perfectly. "At the moment the only Microsoft application that uses WPF is Visual Studio and many users wish that it didn't." Granted that is WPF but I am having problems finding any of their major apps that use a majority of managed code.

http://www.i-programmer.info/professional-programmer/i-programmer/2830-was-net-all-a-mistake.html

http://www.i-programmer.info/professional-programmer/i-programmer/4026-the-war-at-microsoft-managed-v-unmanaged.html

3
4
Silver badge
FAIL

Re: Yawn

This was about all I could find and boy is it dated. "Windows "Longhorn" dramatically increases the amount of managed Windows code including components like WinFx, an all managed API, "Avalon", a managed presentation layer, and "Indigo" a messaging stack, all using managed code."

We all know how well things went adding lots of managed code to Longhorn (Vista). It went so well they ended up ripping most of it out on rewrite and Vista was still dog slow.

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/danielfe/archive/2004/11/02/251254.aspx

0
5
Silver badge
Trollface

Re: Yawn

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/228024/what-major-applications-does-microsoft-sell-which-use-the-net-framework

There was this too but honestly not many of those products really took off and the ones that did are usually for management types who can't do real development (Sharepoint is SVN/GIT for management), etc. Notice that the SQL server answer is only interoperability as SQL server itself was not written in managed code. As for IIS oh you mean that webserver headed for single digit market share? Still it was smart doing that for often public facing software in managed code considering the rate at which MS devs introduce buffer overflows in their code.

1
4
Silver badge
Trollface

Re: Yawn

Bah missed edit window. Meant to say for management and web dev types (Expression Blend) that think XAML is proper GUI development.

0
4
Thumb Up

Re: Yawn

Your first post clearly stated: "Funny how they never really ate their own dog food and wrote any of their own software on .Net"

My original comment was not concerned with just WPF as you probably gathered.

You stated .Net, I was therefore responding to your claim that Microsoft never produced any software in .Net - Which is, in all honesty, complete hogwash.

As far back as 2004 Microsoft had at least; (1) 11 Windows server products written in whole or in part in managed code; (2) 5 developer tools partly written in managed code; (3) 7 web properties written in managed code; (4) 10 internal applications written in whole or in part in managed code.

The case still stands, in 2013, that more than just Visual Studio uses managed code.

"Granted that is WPF but I am having problems finding any of their major apps that use a majority of managed code."

If you now want to change the goalposts to "major apps that use a majority of managed code" then of course, I will need to change my response to meet the new goalposts you are now setting.

As for WPF however. Never liked it. Never will.

Glad you didn't mention Linux. It's my New Year resolution to say 'BSD' every time I reply to a post with 'Linux' in it :)

2
4

Page:

This topic is closed for new posts.