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back to article Cameron defends U-turn on web filth ban, leaves filtering to parents

Prime Minister David Cameron today reminded British families that they will be nudged by ISPs to consider blocking online pornography, self-harm websites and similar material at home. Crucially, he stopped short of installing the on-by-default "crude system" of network-level web filters promised earlier this year. The top Tory …

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WTF?

Is the Fail confused or am I?

I saw this in my local bacon and egg place whilst picking up my lunch (four slices of bacon, soft white roll, egg, no sauce), and wondered what on earth was going on since I'd seen nothing on either this site or the bbc (the only other site I visit at work).... I figured if the Fail's headline was true there would be something somewhere leading to massive shouting matches and the like....

So I guess this means that sooner or later if the ISP choses to do something then I might have to worry (two little 'uns in the house), but until then I can carry on doing what I like (within reason) on the internetwebtubes without worrying about Nanny Govt slapping me on the knuckles and telling me that it's for my own good....

I think I'll carry on being confused by it all, and head back to the shop for another bacon & egg roll....

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Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

P.S...... Glad to see the Daily Mail ensuring the cover images are suitable with a bikini clad and drinking young woman (not sure who - I think she's famous for something) on the cover.... maybe they're hoping that's the sort of thing that their blocking "win" will cover...

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Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Upvote for the needless delicious breakfast description and the obscure knightmare ref in your name :)

Not to mention that I agree - the DM confused me earlier as well.

I'm thinking that they just want to do the old trick of pretending that's what they wanted all along when they clearly didn't.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Please clarify; Fried, boiled or scrambled?

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Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Private Eye regularly note that the DM's public persona isn't reflected behind the scenes. The bikini-clad pictures are one example but the code-phrase 'all grown up' is apparently regularly used on picture captions of 16 year olds in a way that makes it synonymous with 'has reached a legal age'.

This can then be used to justify a revealing picture that might well have been illegal just a few days earlier.

Don't believe me? Try a search on their site.

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Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Although due to copying our answers off the Americans - 16 isn't old enough to view pictures of her.

It's old enough to marry her and have kids - but not take pics of her in a bikini

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Sidebar of shame

Hello? Is that my ISP? Can you block my children from having access to the Daily Mail website because I'd like them to grow up as rational, decent human beings.

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Re: Sidebar of shame

Take a look at the Kitten Block browser plugin - it replaces Mail/Express pages with cute pictures.

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Devil

Re: Sidebar of shame

The one irony of the Fail's campaign to remove porn by default is that any self-respecting porn filter would deny access to mail.co.uk as one of the biggest purveyors of borderline-dodgy pix on the net.

Much as I hate the idea of these kinds of controls (for various different reasons), the thought that they might cause traffic hitting Dacre's Den of Iniquity to vanish overnight almost makes them worthwhile. Almost.

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Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Don't believe me? Try a search on their site.

... Just not from a work computer!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

"It's old enough to marry her and have kids - but not take pics of her in a bikini"

There is a legal exemption in England that you can photograph your spouse in seductive poses even if they are under 18. Not sure if there is an exemption for visiting wives under 16. Usually a legal marriage in another country is respected in England - hence the popularity of Gretna Green many years ago for English 16 to 21s.

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Happy

@Matthew 3

"Private Eye regularly note that the DM's public persona isn't reflected behind the scenes. The bikini-clad pictures are one example but the code-phrase 'all grown up' is apparently regularly used on picture captions of 16 year olds in a way that makes it synonymous with 'has reached a legal age'."

A right wing British newspaper using coded language to communicate its real meaning.

Who'd have thought it?

So the DM staffed by right wingers who are also DOMs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sidebar of shame

Installed...thanks

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Is the Fail confused or am I?

Yes its a legal exemption that shouldn't be needed...

the law should recognise 16 year olds as adults not kids...

hell I think that 14 is where we should consider someone old enough to make their own decisions, my grandfather emigrated alone to Canada when he was 14, and worked on a farm!

I know that there would be some people exploited if the law was changed, but these underage laws don't help people above 18 who get exploited, so maybe we should focus on real crimes rather than things that harm no one...

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Go

Yay!

At least there's a certain level of sense in the decision. I was actually worried that the government would start placing opt-out-by-effort internet laws into place...and once that was done it would've opened the legal door to free-reign controls over who-what-where-when-why-and-how.

I pay for internet access, not for internet blocking.

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Devil

Re: Yay!

More importantly, last time I checked you and me vote for MPs so they can select a government. We do not vote for DMRs - Daily Mail representatives.

The amount of pampering the Daily Beobachter gets from this government is frankly sickening.

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2 Things

I should point out that most of the comment leaving DM readers were AGAINST an opt-[in/out] block. So it's not really for "Middle England", it's for the DM and no one else.

Also one thing I posted on there too: I expect this will be done for new and current customers. They'll be asked if they have kids. What about couples who've not had kids YET. Will ISPs be informed of all births?

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How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

"In other words, parents living with their children must remember to click on "no thanks" to filtering, otherwise their internet access will be restricted accordingly to block supposedly harmful material."

So. Am I going to get a mail from my ISP asking whether I have children living with me? Or are they going to look to see whether anybody is visiting moshimonsters? And how are they going to contact me? (I rarely use the mailbox provided by my ISP because the mail name is crap).

I really think that all MPs should be made to attend compulsory "How the Web works" training, sit an exam to show they've understood, and if they fail it, be barred from taking part in debate or votes on laws affecting Internet access. Internet access is becoming so essential to daily life that the people agreeing legislation have to understand enough to stop suggesting stupid, unworkable laws.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

"I really think that all MPs should be made to attend compulsory "How the Web works" training, sit an exam to show they've understood, and if they fail it, be barred from taking part in debate or votes on laws affecting Internet access. Internet access is becoming so essential to daily life that the people agreeing legislation have to understand enough to stop suggesting stupid, unworkable laws."

Best statement I have read online for ages. Some real out of the box thinking there. That should be the first "internet" law passed by our MP's, then they can start to look at further laws (if deemed necessary)

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Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

"I really think that all MPs should be made to attend compulsory "How the Web works" training, sit an exam to show they've understood, and if they fail it, be barred from taking part in debate or votes on laws affecting Internet access."

I agree, but think that the idea should be expanded to all areas of life, not just the Internet.

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Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

The problem is, this should be applied to many other things. The NHS and the military are two things that could really benefit from MPs who actually knew the first thing about the matter. Maybe we need a "are you intelligent and erudite enough to be an MP" test.

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Flame

MPs understanding the subject ...

shouldn't be a problem. They can afford to pay (with OUR money) for the very best expertise and advice in their fields.

The problem is when they get it, they promptly ignore it - look at drugs for a start, and energy policy for a finish.

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Joke

Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

The trouble with many MPs is they're career politicians - after leaving education, they immediately moved into politics or the political machine. I think it was Billy Connelly who said "the desire to be a politician, should ban you for life for ever being one".

Perhaps we should introduce a kind of national service where the most expert, highly thought of candidates from a wide field of industries, upon reaching 60 years old should get nominated to become an MP. A 5 year position that say doubles the value of their pension pot.

The only problem I see is that we'd end up with Dr Sheldon Cooper running the country.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: MPs understanding the subject ...

"The problem is when they get it, they promptly ignore it - look at drugs for a start, and energy policy for a finish."

David Nutt and Jacqui Smith were on the radio the other week, talking about the reclassification of cannabis to class B. This happened without input from the ACMD but effectively on a unilateral decision from Gordon Brown, acted on by Smith without any reference to any scientific knowledge or expertise at all. Apparently she now admits that may be a flawed approach.

Afterwards Nutt had this to say - “She, like most politicians, has the delusion whatever they think is right; they lack all humility”

This is the sort of person that gets into power, regardless of the party. They think the wrong way around, they make decisions and cherry-pick soundbites to support these decisions instead of looking at the evidence FIRST and letting that inform policy.

A pox on all their houses.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

Supposedly that's how the other chamber already works. Some politicians do creep in due to inevitable cronyism but now hereditary peers are falling by the wayside, the great and the good that make it to the realm generally have to have some number of years of practical experience behind them.

It could be even better if a portion of the house were reserved for mandatory attendance by adults picked at random from the general population, a bit like jury duty. I understand that's pretty much how the commons was in its earlier days.

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Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

Mr Adams said (wrote) something very similar "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job"

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Anonymous Coward

Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

On the other hand the great and the good getting into the "Lords" need some sort of backing to get there, backing they might feel obligated to return.

Some (note some) of the heriditary peers had the good fortune (literally) to be descended from those rewarded for their political machinations in centuries past. With no need to work for a living and no particular dependency on the party, they could afford to be free with their enlightened attitudes and criticize the government of the day without fear of reprisal.

And some of the heriditaries just used to turn up once or twice a year to meet their mates without a thought for obligation to the country as a whole.

Random selection of the populace for service sounds rather like an Ancient Greek democracy thing. Though there were fewer of thme to select from and all thos elegible tended to have a vested interest in their city-state

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Anonymous Coward

Re: MPs understanding the subject ...

"The problem is when they get it, they promptly ignore it"

What MPs tend to do is to get together a group of people to draft the initial bill. These are often self-serving single issue lobbyists who purport to be experts in the field.

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 was interesting in its initial clauses. A key input for fear of "indecent exposure" was an academic survey that said a majority of women were afraid to go out at night. Apparently the survey had been conducted in Yorkshire at the time that the Yorkshire Ripper was at large. This latter qualification was not made apparent.

The Police input caused the words "with intent" to be removed - apparently because "that is often hard to prove".

Some of the excesses were later ameliorated after a concerted public campaign by national groups who had been excluded from the initial drafting. However it still seems to have been a victory for the single-issue campaigners - who are possibly the same vested interests trying to get the internet restricted.

The long-standing degree of differentiation between pictures of under 16s and those of under 18s was removed. A bit of a backhanded blow to the Sun - as it had to up its Page 3 models to a day over 18.

One interesting effect of the single-issue groups' fixation with "indecent exposure" was to make it a Sexual Offenders Register offence - whereas a couple having sex in public is apparently only a Public Order (non sexual) offence.

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Vic
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Re: How do the ISP know there are children in the house?

> some of the heriditaries just used to turn up once or twice a year to meet their mates

I'd very much prefer that sort of indifference to having an appointed political crony in the position.

The House of Lords was always about reviewing and refining bills from the Commons. These days, it's about lending a figleaf of authenticity to your old colleagues...

Vic.

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How do you check the age of the people answering the questions to do with filtering?

And if Ms.Perry really wants to stop the sexualisation of children what will she be doing to limit the sale of smartphones to children when those smartphones are being so widely abused?

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Childcatcher

The Daily Mail

The Daily Mail is a prime example of the web smut I want to keep my children away from!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Daily Mail

Chuck into the mix Xenophobic, vacuous, reactionary, factually inaccurate, royalty fawning tripe.

It really should come with a health warning "Reading this crap will seriously damage your IQ and narrow your horizons"

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Anonymous Coward

Re: The Daily Mail

It's weird. When I see someone reading the Daily Mail I immediately think much less of them.

I also enjoy the irony of doing so.

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Re: The Daily Mail

But without knowing what the Daily Mail hates - how would I know what to think?

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adviser on preventing sexualisation and commercialisation of childhood.

maybe MP Claire Perry can focus on getting a ban on the Mail's handy "All Grown Up" tag.

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WTF?

Re: adviser on preventing sexualisation and commercialisation of childhood.

Jesus H Christ on a bike, I'd never noticed that before! Someone at the Fail has got a serious hard on for under-age and barely legal girls!!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: adviser on preventing sexualisation and commercialisation of childhood.

Someone everyone at the Fail has got a serious hard on for under-age and barely legal girls!!

There. FIFY.

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FAIL

Re: adviser on preventing sexualisation and commercialisation of childhood.

I just gave this a go:

1. Went to the daily fail website

2. Typed 'all grown up' in to their search box

One of the pages returned was this:

"Elle Fanning looks all grown up at 13 as she shares a red carpet hug with Tom Cruise at Super 8 premiere"

All Grown Up. At 13!!

If my opinion of the daily fail could sink any lower, it would.

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Mushroom

Re: adviser on preventing sexualisation and commercialisation of childhood.

It gets worse than that...

  • "All grown up at last! Doug Hutchison's teen bride Courtney Stodden turns 18... and is 'flooded with adult movie offers"
  • "All grown up! Chloe Moretz looks very ladylike and older than her 14 year as she attends Hugo screening"
  • "She can't be tamed! Miley Cyrus is all grown up in sex scene for LOL..."
  • "Classy Chloe: Teen actress Moretz, 14, looks all grown up as she steals the the show at Hugo premiere"

That is just page 1 of 764 pages of results (20 results per page) for "all grown up"!

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Unhappy

How?

So when he says they will show you how to differentiate between individual offspring and the times and sites they casn access, how are ISPs going to do that then with a multitude of web enabled kit like PC, Tablet, phone?

I've looked in my router settings and there is nothing in there that will allow me to limit such things with that level of finesse

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Silver badge

Re: How?

"So when he says they will show you how to differentiate between individual offspring and the times and sites they casn access, how are ISPs going to do that then with a multitude of web enabled kit like PC, Tablet, phone?

I've looked in my router settings and there is nothing in there that will allow me to limit such things with that level of finesse"

Easy. He was lying. You could tell because he had 'MP' after his name.

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Childcatcher

Re: How?

"Easy. He was lying. You could tell because he had 'MP' after his name."

No. Not lying. Because he has MP after his name by default he has no clue about anything he talks about.

All MP's just waffle and hope that nobody notices.

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Re: How?

"So when he says they will show you how to differentiate between individual offspring and the times and sites they casn access, how are ISPs going to do that then with a multitude of web enabled kit like PC, Tablet, phone?

I've looked in my router settings and there is nothing in there that will allow me to limit such things with that level of finesse"

My router (bt homehub v2) can limit access to individual devices to certain times of the day, but thats really not much good for anything other than kicking little timmy off call of duty come bedtime. I have seen business routers that do individual device based app and url filtering (including access times), but most households dont tend to have £150+ routers thrown in with their i.s.p.`s package.

I suppose a parent could register a device by mac code or whatever and the i.s.p could keep a database of who uses what device connected to each router and provide filtering based on that. Dont let any device connect until its registered and your all set.

This all sounds too complicated to set up and maintain for the average facebook/farmville/mumsnet using parent though, and they wont use it, they will just complain, so isp`s will probably go with a master toggle at the isp end that fires up a bloody great block list for all devices connected to the router with it enabled (like aol were doing a decade ago). Oh, and it will be trivial to bypass by any kid with an iq over 90.

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Re: How?

Put a linux based firewall running on anything with a pentium3 or later as a boundry firewall. Almost free, and perflectly capable of doing this. Use something like Smoothwalll with some of the community mods.

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Vic
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Re: How?

> register a device by mac code or whatever and the i.s.p could keep a database

Wouldn't work in the UK - we use PPPoA, and the MAC address of individual devices doesn't propagate past the router...

Vic.

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FAIL

I think they're trying to paint

a picture where you've bought a new PC (coz sales of them are rocketing) and when you turn it on for the first time, it's have a massive prompt saying "Are there children in the house ?" with a "YES" and "NO" button underneath it.

The silence from Microsoft and Apple (as Mac suppliers) speaks volumes. Where is this mysterious config screen going to go ? Where will the onus lie for providing it ? The retailer ? The OS supplier ? The hardware supplier ? The ISP ? How can an ISP put software on a clients machine ? Especially if that PC is running something which isn't Windows ?

Tablets ?

Smartphones ?

Smart TVs ?

Oh well, at least the government gives us a good laugh when it tries to grapple with technical issues. They treat engineers with contempt and ignore them, and quite rightly get ridiculed when they try to live without them.

On a serious note, this could be an early indication of Camerons impending demise. Politicians usually have bullet-catchers who stop this sort of foot in mouth gaffe. Their mysterious absence, leaving their masters in the line of fire is a sure sign they've read the runes. Remember Jacqui "we'll force paedophiles to register their email" Smith ?

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Re: I think they're trying to paint

I also was trying to work out where exactly people would be "clicking through", and can think of only two possibilities:

1. Software from your ISP which you need to install (eg. AOL floppies)

2. A forced redirect the first time you try to access any web page

Given MPs' general experience with technology, I suspect Herr Cameron was thinking something like the former, whereas the latter is the only actually realistic option.

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Anonymous Coward

A forced redirect the first time you try to access any web page

but supposing you do all your accessing the internet via a VPN ? You know, they way most people will when the government snooping bill(s) go through.

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Re: I think they're trying to paint

I remember a little VB script thing that ran in excel, and changed the position of the 'Yes' button when a mouseover event occured on the button, so you could never exit from a spreadsheet displaying a dirty pic. How long 'till the ISP's start doing that to opt out of filtering (obviously not the dirty pic displaying)?

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