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back to article Apple versus Samsung: everything infringes everything

With Samsung seeking last week to widen its patent claim against Apple to include the iPad Mini, iPad 4 and iPod Touch 5, Cupertino has predictably responded in kind, expanding its own claims. In this filing, Samsung asked a magistrate to approve its new claims that the three Apple devices infringe the same patent, US 7,672,470 …

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according to apple at this point anything that is better and has more market share infringes on their product some how. They got a patent called "successful smartphone". they can't stand fact they are getting owned in the market and they whole business model of minor upgrades every 6-12 months and make it so after 2 years its completely dropped from support is hurting them. They only have litigation left.

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FAIL

your one sided bias towards fandroidism is incredibly amusing. You claim Apple does this yet don't seem to care that Samsung widened their claim to take an the iPad and other devices? Not a particularly big fan of the iPad mini but only a troll would deny that the iPad is the full fat tablet to own. Yes you might choose a different one for what ever reason but the iPad is widely regarded (and rightly so) as the best tablet on the market. Yes the Nexus 7 is also very good but it is like trying the decide which computer is the best out of the Dell family budget box and a 6000 core, 20 graphic card gaming monster. They are just in different markets.

Both Apple and Samsung (and the rest of the industry but we all know theres no click-bate quite like an Apple click-bate) need to grow up and stop wasting money on Blood sucking lawyers.

commence the down voting! for who needs personal opinion and a balanced view point when you've got an axe to grind!

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Stop

"You claim Apple does this yet don't seem to care that Samsung widened their claim to take an the iPad and other devices?" - in reaction to apple's injunction attempt should be noted. from what i could tell they were the first ones to swing the injunction hammer. i would say samsung are simply defending themselves. lets not forget, whilst there has always been plenty of lawsuit action going on in the tech world it was apple who escalated things to the ridiculous headline grabbing scale we are now facing. if you want to blame someone for this you should look at the fruit logo firm.

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Re: only a troll would deny that the iPad is the full fat tablet to own

You got the wrong icon I think. There are better spec tablets out there than ipads you know

> what ever reason but the iPad is widely regarded (and rightly so) as the best tablet on the market.

That reason is marketing.

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Meh

Re: only a troll would deny that the iPad is the full fat tablet to own

"There are better spec tablets out there than ipads you know"

Very true. But none IMO have the range and quality of TABLET apps or the support.

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Facepalm

That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

No lessons learned from the maps comedy, then.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

What's so bad about changing battery suppliers? Samsung doesn't make the best batteries anyway.

It's a great idea since it's such a critical piece where industrial sabotage could be a major risk.

Would you continue to give a company proven to have no ethics and bent on destroying your business a supply contract for the explosive parts of your products?

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FAIL

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

"Would you continue to give a company proven to have no ethics and bent on destroying your business a supply contract for the explosive parts of your products?" <--- no ethic's sounds very much like Apple and their use of patents even they are are purely bogus and trying to get a competitor banned from the market.

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WTF?

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

"a company proven to have no ethics"

Aside from the fact that corporate entities and "ethics" never really show more than a passing acquaintance (especially so in Apple's case) can you show me this proof of which you speak? And please don't start waving the farcical US jury trial verdict around, it'll just make you look even sillier.

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WTF?

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

Right. Because Apple invented the USPTO and singlehandedly created the entire running joke that is US patent legislation.

Oh wait: no they didn't.

If you want to blame somebody, blame the people responsible for the USPTO, which is SUPPOSED to stop "obvious" patents being filed in the first bloody place. (Of course, that would require spending some money on hiring suitably trained and educated people to scrutinise the patent applications.)

Contrary to popular belief, lawyers are rarely trained in engineering and have no idea if the patent(s) they're defending actually make sense from an engineering standpoint. However, patent legislation usually requires that each patent holder actively defends their patent portfolio, regardless of how many valid patents that portfolio might actually contain.

Apple vs. Samsung is a symptom, not a cause.

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Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

Contrary to popular belief, lawyers are rarely trained in engineering and have no idea if the patent(s) they're defending actually make sense from an engineering standpoint.

You're half right. It's not that they have no idea if the patents they're defending make sense, it's that they actively DON'T CARE. Think about it. If you are paid to litigate, is it in your best interest to find a larger or smaller number of patents worth litigating about? Lawyers are paid to represent clients, whether they have stupid patents or were caught on video murdering someone in cold blood. If you're defending that murderer, you try to cast doubt on whether the person on the video is your client, how DNA tests aren't 100% infallible, that fingerprints on the murder weapon could have an innocent explanation, etc. You might not expect anyone to buy that argument, but you have to make it anyway.

However, patent legislation usually requires that each patent holder actively defends their patent portfolio, regardless of how many valid patents that portfolio might actually contain.

You are thinking of trademarks, this is not the case for patents (at least not the US, I have no idea how it works in other countries) There is a presumption that waiting longer than six years is an unreasonable delay, without some explanation, but inside that you can do nothing and wait for a billion infringing products to come out. That's enough time that Apple and Samsung could legally still be lying in wait to sue each other over products released in December 2006. The true patent trolls are the ones that deliberately lie in wait like this, and prefer to buy old patents that were previously undefended as it offers an excuse for delay that courts almost always accept.

The reason Apple and Samsung are going all-in right now is because they know this trial is the big showdown in the US, and they want to put all their cards on the table. There's no point in holding back, whether the judge finds one side or the other liable for damages, or they eventually settle and one pays the other, they want to maximize the number of devices in play, and include the devices likely to have a lot of sales between now and the time of a final verdict or settlement.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

Quote: "Contrary to popular belief, lawyers are rarely trained in engineering and have no idea if the patent(s) they're defending actually make sense from an engineering standpoint"

Close, but no cigar. Usually you do Patent Law (at least in Europe) after you get a degree in a particular scientific discipline. Quite often it is a career change for people who have hit the glass ceiling in science or engineering. So as a matter of fact at least in the EU the Patent lawyers have a very good idea about the patents they are defending and if they make sense or not.

Just as an example - I have a fledgling dark forces stormtrooper (sorry, trainee Eu patent attorney) in the house. She is the smart one (and I am the stupid one) with an MSc in one scientific discipline, PhD in another and 15 years of scientific and engineering career before she joined the dark side and got a degree in IP Law.

You would have been slightly closer to the truth if you would have written that as "Contrary to popular belief, _US_ lawyers". These they quite often come from law/solicitor instead of technical background.

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EU != USA on patents, praise $deity$

As the lawsuits Apple have won (subject to appeal) are in the US, I think the scope was obvious.

In the EU our patent examiners, judges and presumably some lawyers are not as foolish as the US.

The USPTO has plainly taken to approving everything, regardless of prior art or obviousness and letting the lawyers sort it out afterwards: ref. the recent design patent awarded to Apple quite literally and specifically for rounded corners.

In other words, the USPTO is now clearly utterly and irreversibly useless, and needs taking out back and put out of its misery.

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Facepalm

Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

Oddly enough I know a few patent attorneys in the UK, all did engineering first before moving over, one at Oxford (and not the Poly!)

Thats not to say all lawyers are from the background but if you are going to specialise in a legal field like patent law then it helps to know what you are doing in that field.

Much like medicine, law has specialist fields, I know you are not aware of this Sean as from your posts about Apple its apparent your proctologist does your eye tests!

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Re: That alternative battery decision, just out of spite...

"It's a great idea since it's such a critical piece where industrial sabotage could be a major risk."

Seriously? Samsung might booby-trap Apple batteries.

/rolleyes.

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Facepalm

Why I'm Not A Judge

My response would be along the lines of:

"Okay, Apple, you've done a good job of showing that Samsung does not respect your patents. Samsung, you've done a good job showing that Apple does not respect your patents.

Therefore, to protect the markets from your respective unrespectfulnesses, I am issuing an injunction prohibiting either company from importing or selling any product in this country that has not been tested against every patent* and proven non-infringing.

This injunction takes effect Monday, December 3rd -- unless you two companies find, somehow, that you can respect each others' patents by then.

*That's every patent."

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Re: Why I'm Not A Judge

i said something along that line on a forum post. Sales ban all the devices on that suit list. I put money wouldn't take long for Apple be willing to talk since they would be ones losing the most since their profits relies on 2 products, the iphone and ipad. without those 2 on sale. Apples profits would instantly dive bomb.

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Trollface

Re: Why I'm Not A Judge

But as a judge you would then be foisting Surface pads and chinapads onto people as their only choices. Would you really be able to live with that? How would you sleep when you kid brings a surface RT home from school?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Why I'm Not A Judge

Well genius you would then have to extend that to pretty much every company - imagine the delays and cost if every company had to check every product against every patent and fight it out in court before they could even get them to market.

People raise patent issues years after the product starts selling - so potentially you would delay a product for years before being able to sell it.

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Re: Why I'm Not A Judge

@Danny14

I'd sleep terribly I must admit because I'd be up all night fiddling around with kernels other Linux nonsense on it. =p

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Trollface

Re: Why I'm Not A Judge

"Daddy I like office, it has a nice ribbon interface. Why doesn't KDE have pretty tiles?"

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sas
Facepalm

"neither vendor appears to hold a patent for the kitchen sink"

That's because it's already been patented:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=xn0MAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

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Re: "neither vendor appears to hold a patent for the kitchen sink"

My kitchen sink is rectangular with rounded corners.

Does that mean some Apple lawyer should have to come round and wash my dishes?

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WTF?

Did Samsung really raise the cost of CPUs? Probably not.

Samsung reportedly denied any reported price increase with a "prices were agreed upon at the beginning of each year and "aren't changed easily."

http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/14/3644716/samsung-iphone-ipad-processor-price-rise-denial-hankyoreh

It was well publicised, very hard to miss to anyone covering tech news.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Did Samsung really raise the cost of CPUs? Probably not.

The reality is it was probably a tiered pricing based on volume (unsurprising) and Apple have diverted so many to other suppliers they are buy fewer from Samsung.

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Re: diverted so many to other suppliers

But not CPUs, batteries, screens etc yes, but not cpus. Unless the previous arrangement was based on total volumes of everything they bought.

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Apple in Your Eye

If one of those new batteries blows up in Apple's customer's face, while in conversation, this will be ahorrornstory of "the apple in your eye"

(Yes, I know that many batteries are manufactured in China, and that most are not volatile or prone to explosion or spontaneously igniting. Just saying.....)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple in Your Eye

I'd worry more about all those Nexus 7 owners, whose batteries are made in China by the well know *cough* "Simplo Technology Co."

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Backfiring

Another convert here, Just went and ordered a Note 2 to replace my old 3GS just incase they try and ban this galaxy phone here.

Bye Bye Apple!

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How very sad. I am waiting with glee for a judge to strike down all these ridiculous patents and force both sides back to fighting in the market place rather than acting like children in the court room.....

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Anonymous Coward

That's what was happening - Apple design and sell their products - Samsung come along and copy them - unless your argument is we should just have a free for all. Good luck with all those pharma patents and goodbye to any new drugs being developed.

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Facepalm

D'Oh! Missed It

Of course! I get it now...

Apple got the patent on Copying and they don't want to share it !

Damn those cunning cupertino curmudgeons !

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Anonymous Coward

Stopped selling batteries = cutting off it's nose to spite it's face.

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Stop

"Stopped selling batteries = cutting off it's nose to spite it's face."

Selling a component for a phone that has about a 5% market share is no huge loss in the scheme of things.

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Anonymous Coward

But.....

it's 5% of a very very very large market.

I'd love to have 5% of it.

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Thumb Up

Re: But.....

"it's 5% of a very very very large market."

It may be so, but to Samsung it may not mean so much in the great scheme of things.

Samsung also manufacture self-propelled 155 mm howitzers so when calling on the "big guns", they can stomp all over Apple. And Apples new HQ has "target" written all over it :-)

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Re: But.....

Perhaps. Though I note that this kind of argument doesn't seem to apply to Apple fans when discussing say, the MS Zune. Nor will it apply to the Surface.

Apple get 5%, and it's a "runaway amazing success". Anyone else gets 10%, and it's a "failure" or a "flop".

Also: you're an individual, Apple are a multinational. 5% would be amazing for an individual like you, but it is rather poor for a billion dollar multinational company, after five years of trying, and vast amounts of hype and free media coverage.

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Anonymous Coward

The Android users on here clearly believe their Church of Samsung can do no wrong - clearly not the case - but it's ok when HTC or Asus or Motorola come out with the next Android handset they will jump ship and worship there instead. Loyalty - gotta love i.t.

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Loyalty to a brand is bullshit

If a manufacturer produces something better than the manufacturer of my current device at a price I am willing to pay then of course I will choose the better option.

That is much better than paying over the odds for an inferior product because of some sense of loyalty.

Where is the incentive for manufacturers to keep improving their products if they know that their customers will buy whatever they churn out next because they are loyal? The threat of losing those customers to a better rival keeps companies on their toes.

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FAIL

brand loyalty? aye right

Why should any customer have loyalty to a brand? It's simple: companies make things, customers choose which one suits them best (if any) based on price, features, whatever is most important to them. This idea of blind loyalty is ridiculous in the extreme.

Apple have been eejits of late- especially with their petulant child response to losing the English case. I have a Samsung phone and Galaxy S mini-tablet/music player. Fandroid? Nope, I just bought a Macbook Air. Because the MBA is the best product on the market for my specific needs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Loyalty to a brand is bullshit

People buy Apple and are even prepared to pay a slight premium as they are buying the whole ecosystem - Android is a fragmented / disjointed 'mess' compared to iOS and the service and support is poor in comparison.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Loyalty to a brand is bullshit

I have a BMW and I would be more inclined to buy another BMW as the car has been great - reliable, great service etc. Sure I would look around but when it comes to change cars next it would be mad not to consider BMW and they would already have a few +++ points for the history I have with them.

To the guy who does not value loyalty - hope he does not extend the same to his relationships!

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Anonymous Coward

You call it mess

I call it choice

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Anonymous Coward

Re: You call it mess

Yes and some people choose to put up with it - I don't care if you buy Samsung or Android just so long as you don't care if I decide to buy Apple... live and let live.

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loyalty

Quite right. I feel no shame at all in that.

I'll certainly buy the best product. Unlike the legions of Apple fanboi's who slavishly buy the latest iWhatever, despite being rather technically lame and highly overpriced.

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Re: Android is a fragmented / disjointed 'mess' compared

Really? Unless someone is targeting a specific extra feature provided by one manufacturer the only difference from a developers point of view is the OS version and screen resolution. You now have those same issues on iOS.

Even on apple devices you can't rely on everyone having the latest and greatest OS release. Many people don't update for ages and some even use older devices that Apple don't provide updates for, yep despite what people say older apple devices don't receive updates just like devices from android makers (true apple do tend to give longer support but for android you can go elsewhere once that happens).

One of the reasons I believe S. Jobs didn't want different size ipads as that would rely on developers to handle that in their code, this is something ios developers have not worried about until recently, android developers have been dealing with it since day one.

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Holmes

Re: You call it mess

You want to be able to buy Apple and be left alone, but the tone of this and the other pro-Apple AC comments in this thread suggest a single post-er.

If you hadn't carpet-bombed the thread with rhetoric and FUD, your view may have held more weight.

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@AC 10:06

"Loyalty - gotta love i.t."

Brand loyalty is an invention of the marketeers and you've fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

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Anonymous Coward

I bought Apple as I wanted the retina display on their Macbook Pro - so not only is it pretty much the best laptop it's also the only laptop that meets my requirements. YMMV.

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