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back to article Judge to Apple: You WILL tell Samsung what you got from HTC

A US judge has told Apple it had better cough up its whole unredacted licensing agreement with HTC in the fruity firm's case against Samsung, a move that could help the Korean company fight a potential sales ban in the country. Apple had said that it would give Samsung's lawyers access to the document, but it would be blacking …

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Devil

Good news

We might see a sensible settlement.

After which I'm sure Apple and Samsung will kiss and make up, hold hands, and skip off happily into the sunset together.

Oh look, a porcine aviator...

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Thumb Up

Re: Good news

Oh look, a porcine aviator...

Not just one, but a whole bloody squadron of them.....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Good news

I suspect whatever Samsung pay Apple will be less than the next price hike in chips Samsung makes for Apple....

I would love to see Samsung buy sharp, just so Apple have to negotiate with Samsung for displays!

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Devil

Re: Good news

Gliding majestically over the frozen wastes of Hell.

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Re: Good news

Hmm. yeah. That sounds like it'll benefit us.

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Devil

Re: Good news

Ok! Who loaded the catapults with patent attorneys?

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Anonymous Coward

Peace in Our Time

Where have I heard that before?

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Anonymous Coward

Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

Curiously, if it is attorney's eyes only, how can this mean Samsung has got its hands on the document?

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FAIL

Re: Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

It is a bit odd: Samsung's *lawyers* (who are apparently from an outside firm, not Samsung employees) will get to see the figures, but not show them to their client. If they can't show the figures to the client, how can they use the information for anything?

If HTC are paying as much as Apple claim Samsung should, it might fatally weaken the case - at which point, the lawyers will say "sorry Samsung, we lost because of stuff we're not allowed to explain"? If it's much less, they say "well, Samsung, we've got a really strong case for knocking the price down from $1bn to a number we're not allowed to tell you"? Later, "great news! Instead of $1bn, you just have to pay them a secret amount of money you'll never know! Just give us a blank cheque and we'll fill in the secret amount for you later..."

The whole system needs an overhaul, but in the current context I suppose how much HTC paid for the patents is very relevant to the legal question of how much Samsung should pay for them - letting Samsung's lawyer see them, but not Samsung themselves, is a bit odd but probably the best they can do.

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Re: Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

It's about the sales injunction, not the level of payment. Apple want to keep an injunction that stops Samsung selling products. They claim that the patents are for stuff that Samsung shouldn't be allowed to do irrespective of what they pay Apple. If Apple allow HTC to pay to use those patents but not Samsung then it's relevant to the injunction as it exposes the lie in Apple's claim that they're not prepared to license those patents. I think....

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Re: Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

Apple are right to be worried here, given the "leakage" from Samsung in the past:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/02/apple_samsung_fight_press_statement/

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Anonymous Coward

@Silverburn - Re: Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

Bad analogy. That was not confidential, attorney-only information, they were documents the judge refused to allow Samsung to show to the court for its defense.

Don't tell us you're that naive!

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Anonymous Coward

@James 100 - Re: Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

This is why you could never be a lawyer.

Samsung's lawyers will defend their client in court by simply making a reference to what they - and the judge - saw in those documents in order to counter act Apple's claims, without the need to mention any specific details (the judge and Apple already know what is all about). You didn't think of that, did you ?

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Re: @James 100 - Attorney's eyes only = "samsung"

Will we find out what Samsung is told it must pay if it turns out Apple must dseal with them?

Not that I care -just asking.

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Apple are doomed

Sooner or later, people will realise what utter scumbags they are supporting. Plus the tech is shit.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple are doomed

Funny, you could say the same about Google, Microsoft or any big company.

They all dodge tax, lobby hard for law changes that act against the rights of voters and they would all love a monopoly.

If Apple's tech is so shit then why is their tablet's screen resolution class leading? why are ultrabooks made with much more inferior screen resolution?

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Coat

If Apple's tech is so shit then why is their tablet's screen resolution class leading?

I don't think Apple's tech is shit, but small point of order here - the iPad's screen resolution is no longer class leading, as the Nexus 10 has a higher resolution.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple are doomed

"If Apple's tech is so shit then why is their tablet's screen resolution class leading?"

Err... they're not. iPad with Retina (bullshit name) screen - 264 ppi. Nexus 10 - 300 ppi. Least said about the ppi on an iPad mini the better, eh?

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Anonymous Coward

iPad IS class-leading

The iPad Retina screen resolution IS still class-leading, but only if the class in question is 9.7 inch tablets with a picture of some fruit on them, rather than 10.1 inch tablets without fruity logos.

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Re: Apple are doomed

"If Apple's tech is so shit then why is their tablet's screen resolution class leading? why are ultrabooks made with much more inferior screen resolution?"

Perhaps its because Apple don't actually make the screens and they use other peoples tech?

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Re: Apple are doomed

to all the iFanatics

Capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which users express empathy and have almost fanatical ( eg APPLE ) positive feelings towards their products, always to the point of defending them ad nauseam

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple are doomed

Whilst you a correct that the technology, screen or otherwise is manufactured by other companies, its the design expertise that makes it happen. Whether that is simply throwing money at said companies to make it work or Apple supplying their own staff, or designing in house, its still Apple getting the technology to market.

I don't think we would have the very high res screens we all enjoy in our mobile/tablet devices today if Apple hadn't pushed that approach forward.

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Re: Apple are doomed

Capture-bonding is not limited to fanbois, it should be noted.

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Re: Apple are doomed

very original and typical fanboi response ..

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple are doomed

Further to Silverburn's comment, the majority of fanaticism always seem to come from the anti-Apple camp, cf "iFanatics". Go to any tech blog and look at the comments on any story about Apple, good or bad.

That's right. Down vote. Every single one proves the point.

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Re: Apple are doomed

"Whilst you a correct that the technology, screen or otherwise is manufactured by other companies, its the design expertise that makes it happen. Whether that is simply throwing money at said companies to make it work or Apple supplying their own staff, or designing in house, its still Apple getting the technology to market.

I don't think we would have the very high res screens we all enjoy in our mobile/tablet devices today if Apple hadn't pushed that approach forward."

Right, because its really difficult to design a square/rectangular slab that takes a similar shaped screen? Or is it that it is difficult to pixel double so that the image fills the screen?

Perhaps it is more to do with the fact that hardware tech is moving forward at a blistering pace, and Apple are usually early adopters. "Retina" class or high dpi screens are a natural evolution - my first computer had a display resolution of 320x200 and could display 128 colours. My current PC has a resolution of 1920x1080 and millions of colours. My first mobile had a low resolution monochrome screen - My current mobile has a WVGA Super Amoled screen and each generation in between has been better than the one preceding it.

Don't be so gullible in thinking the sun shines out of Apples backside - most of the "new" tech they have introduced has been acquired from other companies.

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Re: Apple are doomed

When in trouble, when in doubt ( fanbois ) RUN IN CIRCLES, SCREAM AND SHOUT...

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Holmes

Re: Apple are doomed

Apple are doomed!

Really, we've been reading about that since the 1990s, or was it the 1980s?

If you can't make rational, reasoned, comments please don't add to the noise.

There are a number of possible outcomes to this. It's quite possible that the patents involved in the HTC case are not the same ones as the Samsung ones. If this is the case then the deal with HTC is not at all relevant to the case.

If they are the trade dress patents then those are up to Apple to decide whether the license them at all. Apple hold the patent, they aren't FRAND patents whereby there is an obligation to license at a fair and reasonable price, so can decide whether to license or not and at what rate.

HTC have made a number of patents available to Apple as part of the deal. It could be that each of these cross-licensing deals is subject to a large cost but that the costs, pretty much, cancel each other out. In which case its quite possible that as far as Samsung is concerned, without a similar non-FRAND patent portfolio to negotiate with, they will be worse off for seeing the agreement.

Rather than view the fanboi/samboi speculation and invective I'd rather like to see how this plays out.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Apple are doomed

I think Apple are doomed by fashion to be honest, over exposure makes it the norm and therefore you dont stand out any more if you own one.

Few highlights from discussions in the lift and meeting prewarmers;

Samsung -> looks really cool I'll get one of those next.

Samsung -> flip around screen protector thats a really clever idea. Though shame it doesnt have a space for the camera when its opened.

Samsung next to an iphone the other day, the iphone suddenly looked really dated.

BTW I dont own either, I have a nokia 6021 so dont care either way. But its certainly true the iphone has lost its street cred.

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Holmes

Re: Apple are doomed @AC 13:06 GMT

its the design expertise that makes it happen

< sarcasm >

Hey, I have a design for a 9.7" (diagonal) tablet with a 512 pixels per inch (ppi) screen, does that make me twice as good as a crApple designer?

< /sarcasm >

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Joke

Re: Apple are doomed, @Rabbit80

You used t' 'ave 128 colours, we had nowt but 16 colours 'ow we dream of 'aving 128 colours, Would ha' been 'eaven to us

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

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Silver badge

Re: Apple are doomed

Because it's made by Samsung...

Neither the ipad or ipad mini are highest resolution. And anything above full hd seems pointless anyway - do you have the gpu power to drive complex AAA pc games at that resolution? How many full hd movies - let alone higher res - can you fit on that 16gb ipad anyway? That's why ultrabooks have lower res, because no one wants it, and it's a pointless marketing point.

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Anonymous Coward

The tech it licenced to HTC was not FRAND, therefore Apple can discriminate and charge a different fee to different people.

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Anonymous Coward

That may be true, but, if Apple are claiming that, by infringing its patents, Samsung cost them $x per unit sold, they have to justify that value. If the HTC deal shows that Apple consider the value of those patents to be a fraction of the value in the lawsuit against Samsung, they will be shown to be lying to the court over the true impact of Samsungs alleged infringement.

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Bronze badge

The point is that if they are willing to licence their patents to HTC they can't claim that importing Sansumg goods in to the USA would cause them irreparable harm, as Sansumg can always pay them later, even if it is several times what HTC pays.

And if there no irreparable harm then there is no reason for an importing ban.

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Anonymous Coward

Attorney firewall

Let's hope the attorney firewall is better than the Shamsung corporate firewall...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Attorney firewall

Perhaps the idea is that the attorneys can examine the document to see if the actual financial information has any relevance and then they make an application to the court for the redacted bits to be revealed to their client

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Attorney firewall

You don't have firewall on Faxes....these are lawyers we are talking about, they would use quills if they could.

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Bronze badge

Re: Attorney firewall

I thought you said "they would use quilts if they could" - and it makes sense.

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Silver badge

Rule 26

Any topic can easily be turned into something totally unrelated.

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Meh

Re: Rule 26

Apple stories sure do bring out the AC'ing in force. I wonder why.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Rule 26

Because fanboys act like the demented followers of a satanic cult and up close can be really scary when they go into full rant mode, frothing at the mouth occasionally.

Don't believe me? Go into any Apple store and just say 'Macs are overpriced crap'. 2 seconds later they are building the fire for the sacrifice to St Jobs

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Anonymous Coward

@AC 14:27 - Re: Rule 26

There is nothing specific to Apple fans in the scenario you mentioned. Just go to any party, church, committee or anywhere people are gathered by a common conviction, insult them and see what you can get for that.

Let's not be silly, OK?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @AC 14:27 - Rule 26

How exactly is saying 'Macs are overpriced crap' insulting anyone? It's insulting a brand of machine and if you have that much emotional attachment to a brand you feel you have to verbally/physically attack someone you need to have a long hard look at yourself.

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Silver badge

Re: @AC 14:27 - Rule 26

The fact that you just compared an apple shop to a church kind of proves the point...

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Sammy

Sammy? Sammy? Who the F is Sammy?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sammy

I guess it's the guy who said something about an Apple a day.

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don't get the headline here, apple doesn't really need to care, it's HTC he didn't like the idea of sharing this stuff with samsung, not apple

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This post has been deleted by its author

"hexx

don't get the headline here, apple doesn't really need to care, it's HTC he didn't like the idea of sharing this stuff with samsung, not apple"

Apple have said they want Samsung's alleged infringing products banned from the USA as Apple will not licence the technology at any price. By being forced to show what technology they have licensed or exchanged with HTC and at what price is therefore potentially relevant.

The fact that neither Apple or HTC want anyone to know suggests that it may well be relevant.

The judge has seen what technologies are involved and has instructed Apple to give the figures. So they MUST be relevant.

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