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back to article Apple tries to add Galaxy Note, Jelly Bean to patent slapfest

Apple has moved to add Samsung's Galaxy Note 10.1 and, unusually, the Google-built Android OS Jelly Bean which runs on the phone to an existing patent lawsuit in the US. The fruity firm argues that the Note 10.1 infringes on its intellectual property just as much as Samsung's other products in the case do. "Shortly after the …

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Anonymous Coward

It's not really news any more...

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Holmes

So much evidence Apple has lost the plot

Look beyond these desperate acts to see form another angle what the actual market thinks, and from the jobs point of view it's certainly thinking different:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=Android%2Cios&relative=1&relative=1

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Happy

Re: So much evidence Apple has lost the plot

One more thing:

http://techcrunch.com/2012/11/07/u-s-court-orders-apple-to-pay-368-million-damages-for-facetime-patent-infringement/

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Unhappy

It may not be news but it is getting a bit annoying now

I mean I have the iphone4 and an iPad but I was left distinctly underwhelmed by the launch of the latest iPhone 5, I mean you've seen the adverts right, as far as I can tell all they have to say about it is the ear phones are a different shape and it's the biggest iPhone ever, big f'ing deal

As for the iPad mini, what a waste of time. Please tech firms (but mailnly Apple) can we get back to innovation and stop pissing about over silly law suits?

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Pathetic..

Starting to get pathetic, apple are looking like over paid bully boys. The judge should throw both cases out and fine them both for wasting the courts time.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

Ever stop to think if they genuinely had a case - after all surely judges will review it and throw things out if they have no merit. Too many people assume it's ok for others to come along and copy Apple stuff but not sure how you would feel if someone just came along and copied stuff you had created / invented / patented.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

I don't really see how Samsung are any better - some would say they are retaliating but an eye for an eye and we both go blind. What do you do bend over and let everyone copy you or take a stand - it's not as if we are talking chump change here either.

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Holmes

Re: Pathetic..

"Ever stop to think if they genuinely had a case"

Fuck 'em: The mobile firms no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt when it comes to spurious litigation. They've already had their proverbial day in court.

"!Too many people assume it's ok for others to come along and copy Apple stuff"

Except it's laughable for 'round corners' to be 'Apple stuff', just like the idea for a technical design with no actual technical design attached is laughable. By their measure, I can go and patent jet boots and hover-boards, and sue the ass of anyone who comes up with a way of making them work. Sci-Fi writers would make a mint by running a side-line of patenting every futurist idea that they have.

If we extended today's patent wars to the auto industry, then it would have historically been the customers who were harmed: Only [say, hypothetically, let's not get into semantics] Mercedes might be allowed four wheels, only Ford have windscreen wipers, and only Vauxhall front wheel drive. The result is that no customer gets to benefit from ALL the technical innovation for 25 years, and we all get inferior products.

Likewise look at feel. Pick up a remote control, and you'll know where the 'on/off' button is regardless of manufacture, because everyone uses the same icon thingy. Steering wheels in cars are all in the same place and pedals in a now-standardised order. This benefits us as punters, allowing us to pick up new devices and quickly master them. But that's not what tech companies want any more: They want to purposely reduce inter-operability and make us stick to one manufacturer because 'it's easier' than learning how to turn off a gadget made by someone else. Again, this hurts us, the customers.

"but not sure how you would feel if someone just came along and copied stuff you had created / invented / patented."

I accept the fact that in an Internet age, people will steal my creative works, and generally prefer to feel positive about it and flattered, rather than shorten my life through the stress of rage. I accept that in a world of 7 billion people, it's pretty unlikely that I will be and deserve to be the only person who things of putting round corners or one button on something.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

Samsung copying the iPad is hardly just a case of copying rounded corners - the thing is near identical to look at. In your world everyone would copy everyone with no comeback and who would bother to innovate. If you were a big pharma company would you bother to spend hundreds of millions on developing, testing, bringing to market some new drug if it was acceptable that someone just shoves it through a machine - copies it and starts selling it?

The difference with jet boots and hover boards is IF you actually made one that worked you probably would want to patent it - or are you someone just happy to share with the world - or do you have to pay the bills like the rest of us?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

Let me guess one day when someone invents a 'transporter' people will call foul and say but it was on Star Trek. There is a whole world of difference between dreaming something up and actually making it work / getting it to market.

Here you go 'world peace' - I don't have a clue how to do it but when it does I would like $1 from everyone on the earth.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

@AC 15:58 - But by your logic, the big pharmas should be suing each other because all of their pills look like pills.

And what was said about jet bootss is referring to Apple's penchant for thinking about a feature and patenting it based on a drawing of what it might do, then suing anyone who actually figures out how to make it. Kind of like if you actually invented a jet boot, and Apple sued you because they patented a drawing of a jet boot years ago.

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the thing is near identical to look at

Not from the back. It looks remarkably different.

But If you want to limit the comparison to the front view only, then go ahead and compare the iPad (2010) to the Ozolins (2004) and LG Flatron (2004) and see where that gets you.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

"If we extended today's patent wars to the auto industry, then it would have historically been the customers who were harmed: Only [say, hypothetically, let's not get into semantics] Mercedes might be allowed four wheels, only Ford have windscreen wipers, and only Vauxhall front wheel drive. The result is that no customer gets to benefit from ALL the technical innovation for 25 years, and we all get inferior products."

Go back to the start of the indiustrial revolution and this is exactly what happened - James Watt had patents on his steam engine but had to use an inferior gear based system to convert the linear motion of the piston into circular motion as someone else had a patent on crankshafts .... however Watt was so zealous about enforcing his patents that (according to someone running a restored pumping engine who I heard giving a description of the development of early steam engines) he mnanaged to prevent anyone else further developing steam engines until after his patents expired which arguably delayed the real start of the industrial revolution by 20-30 years!

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FAIL

Re: Pathetic..

AA@ 15:33 Well said sir - those who came up with the concept first should jolly well be able to stop anyone copying it forever more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_O_dOMG3oo

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Stop

Re: Pathetic..

Seriously, does say a 10.1 tab look like ipad? If you look beyond the unavoidable similarities there is nothing left in the trade dress patents. Even you and the court agree rounded corners is irrelevant. Is the fact samsungs devices have a bevel around the glass you are concerned about? What kind of arrangement of icons would you use if you developed a UI? I'd have used and still would, a grid arrangement. Course, the real killer for samsung is they have the word "Samsung" right smack where apple's "home" button is.

Trade dress, my arse is all I can say. They are trying anything to stem competition. Don't forget many of these have been thrown out of other courtrooms.

Do you actually know what the patents being address here are? If you do it makes me wonder what you mean when you say " who would bother to innovate" because even if you can believe apple invented these there is no way you can honestly say these are innovative.

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Re: Pathetic..

It's true, they are nearly identical to look at. As are every television and monitor on the planet. There's a very simple reason for that - the primary device in both is the screen and little else, so why waste space on things that aren't needed?

The iPad looks remarkably similar to the Windows Tablet released in 2001, for exactly the same reason.

That the technology inside all of these devices, the bit that's genuinely patentable, isn't the same seems to not enter into the argument . . .

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

"Too many people assume it's ok for others to come along and copy Apple stuff but not sure how you would feel if someone just came along and copied stuff you had created / invented / patented."

And FAR TOO MANY plebs think Apple invented the WORLD. Wake up child!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Pathetic..

I have just patented a mechanism where computers simulate or emulate thinking. I have called it "Intelligensia Artificiale" I use it personally, and don't intend anyone to have it. It is my personal invention, to make my life easier. I'm not showing it to anyone.

If you ever come to the same solution, all your base are belong to us.

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FAIL

Re: Pathetic..

Yup, apart from the fact that is says Samsung on the front, doesn't have any buttons on the front, is a different shape and has a rounded edge on the front of the bezel, they're exactly the same.

Damnit, have to get this hook out of my mouth.

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Re: Pathetic..

They all look like the slates that school kids used to use before I was born. Rounded corners and all that other cr*p. By the way rounded corners to try to reduce the risk of eye injuries even in the 1800s. I but those stupid scofflaws in that fruit mess managed to ignore the prior art and still get their idiot slab into the US patent office. Is it called the patent office because it is patently stupid?

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FAIL

Re: Pathetic..

"Samsung copying the iPad is hardly just a case of copying rounded corners - the thing is near identical to look at."

Turn it over. Now it's not. Or should we only look at things from one specific angle when deciding wishy-washy patent cases for things that should never have been granted due to prior art in the first place?

I'm pretty sure quite a few cars look the same from the top, too.

"In your world everyone would copy everyone with no comeback and who would bother to innovate."

'My World' still has patent laws, copyright and patent hearings. Except 'my world' doesn't allow dumb-ass patents, patent trolling, requires that companies license patents, and doesn't try patent cases by jury.

But...y'know: Thanks to jumping to the other end of the opinion spectrum and nailing my flag to the mast in an attempt at reductio ad absurdum because I didn't totally agree with you.

"The difference with jet boots and hover boards is IF you actually made one that worked you probably would want to patent it"

If I made one that worked, I would discover that someone in the US 20 years ago had already patented the IDEA of a hover-board with only the vaguest of descriptions of how it works (By expelling high pressure gases or something), who then sells the patent as part of a bulk deal to some patent-trolling company with a massive legal department who I can't afford to fight, which then sues my a$$. THAT is the problem.

" - or are you someone just happy to share with the world - or do you have to pay the bills like the rest of us?"

I have a day job to pay the bills and just create things for other people to freely use (so long as I am credited) in my free time, thanks for asking.

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Go

Re: Pathetic..

"he mnanaged to prevent anyone else further developing steam engines until after his patents expired which arguably delayed the real start of the industrial revolution by 20-30 years!"

Yes; it's bollocks, isn't it? Patents for actual technical developments need to be protected, but they should be available on licence so that humanity isn't held back in our development by hordes of sodding lawyers.

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Re: Pathetic..

indeed sir, I think you have to watt crankshaft thing the wrong way round. However Watts parallel motion linkage was inspired.

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Re: Pathetic..

Too many people assume it's ok for others to come along and copy Apple stuff

They're saying that Jelly Bean is copied from their stuff? Two words: notification tray.

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Re: Pathetic..

Just to add to the argument, someone told me yesterday (and as he's from the OIN Im inclined to trust him til I can be bothered to look it up) that a good proportion of the patents being used weren't filed or 'invented' by Apple in the first place. The multitouch stuff in particular is all patents they acquired from fingerworks.

So to turn the question on its head, if you developed and patented in an area you were enthusiastic about, would you not be really pissed if someone used your patents (in the sense you did all the work) to try and prevent innovation in that area?

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Devil

Re: Pathetic..

Hello, I am the real Anonymous Coward :)

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Re: Pathetic..

Ask the fashion industry ref TED talk by Johanna Blakley: Lessons from fashion's free culture

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Unhappy

Re: Pathetic..

The Wright Brothers had the same effect on US aircraft development with their patents for control methods. They sued far and wide and, by the time WW1 came round, European aircraft development was way ahead. The impasse ended when Congress pressured the aircraft companies to form a patent pool.

Phil.

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Re: Pathetic..

"the thing is near identical to look at"

Pro-tip: You can always tell the Apple products, by the big tacky Apple logos they plaster all over their products. (The only thing that would make them more tacky is if they lit up.)

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Big Brother

Re: Pathetic..

@Greg J Preece

I'll take your two words and raise you Widgets and NFC.

And don't forget 4.2's multi user capabilities. The Cupertino photocopiers no doubt started with the usual mad scramble when that was announced and might hit iOS next year - all nice and ready for Apple to sue everyone for it the year after. And they'll once again use the best courts money can buy, natch.

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Linux

Re: Pathetic..

> Too many people assume it's ok for others to come along and copy Apple stuff

That's the way the world works. If not for this being the case in the 80's, you would likely never see any sort of affordable mass market personal computer of any variety (Mac clone or DOS clone).

People like you should be forced to use the kind of computing tech that your corporoate shilling nonsense implies you should have access to.

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Happy

Re: Pathetic..

Actually if your great great great great inlaw of some description, through genuine forged documents, could be proven to have a chalk activated slate screen with wooden borders, and rounded corners, you could actually prove that the cretins in Apple actually stole a design that - well is positively ancient.

I mean I was Moses in a past life and I lead my sheeple out of Babylon and we copied, I mean took our 10,000,000 year old tablet design with us....

So I would be able to vouch that you are my descendant and Apple stole that design too.

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Cruel and unusual punishment?

If I were Judge Koh, I'd ask to be excused, because one trial already with Apple and Samsung is more than anybody should have to experience during their career.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Cruel and unusual punishment?

They are probably the most 'expert' to try it - not much point starting it all up again with another judge.

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Re: If I were Judge Koh?

I'd just ban the sale of all Apple & Samsung products in the US until they grow up / settle out of court

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Re: Cruel and unusual punishment?

If I were Judge Koh, I'd ask to be excused, because one trial already with Apple and Samsung is more than anybody should have to experience during their career.

Only if the rest of us can also be excused from having to read about it any more as well...

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They are sueing samsung.....

....over jelly bean?

why not go the whole hog and sue microsft over the dodgy cup of coffee tim cook got from starbucks.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: They are sueing samsung.....

I heard that barista will never work in catering ever again, and every Apple store has their picture so they can't buy any iShiny stuff.

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Anonymous Coward

Details? Details?

What patents is Jelly Bean alleged to infringe?

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Pint

Re: Details? Details?

Apparently someone already thought of making sweets/candies with rounded corners.

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Re: Details? Details?

I can only assume it's the utility patents, i.e. rubberbanding (now invalidated but thats not going to stop them), tap to zoom and how to figure out if someone is scrolling or trying to do a pinch!

Course it could also be the fact android arranges icons in a grid. The others rely on something physical, e.g. a bezel around the glass (FFS!). Although android probably does assume a equiangular quadrilateral and apple seem to think a rectangular shape is part of their trade dress.

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Infringed there-

Ability to come out with something better than there's,in other words Jealousy.

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Re: Ability to come out with something better than there's

They tried that in the UK case, saying that fact that samsungs devices were thinner than apples was copying as their (apples) new devices follow a a trade dress progression of getting thinner!

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Two words

"Vexatious litigant"

Four more words:

"FUCK OFF AND DIE"

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Re: Two words

Ah, arkell v. pressdram; albeit with prejudice.

I approve.

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Judge Koh won't throw this out...

She's on a gravy train until she retires!

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Unhappy

Re: Judge Koh won't throw this out...

Tis now but a short leap before kids are taught Apple invented the mobile phone itself. Once that lie is also repeated enough, as these current rounded corner ones are, we'll see some Texan court they bought starting to sue competitors over their "speaking from one hand held device into another remote one" innovation.

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Stop

Re: Judge Koh won't throw this out...

"Judge Koh won't throw this out...

She's on a gravy train until she retires!"

I realise that the general opinion of Judges is fairly low, but trust me when I say that no Judge wants to sit in front of a pair of VERY expensive lawyers listening to child-like wailing over patents for a month (let alone an entire career), especially when the Courts are back-logged with REAL cases with REAL victims looking for some closure, and REAL criminals who are walking free on bail for far too long, because the Courts are too busy.

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Anonymous Coward

Infringing what?

Most of the so called 'patents' they were suing over have been ripped up by the USPTO for being obvious. Expect the couple that haven't yet been decided on to go the same way.

Apple have been repeatedly shot down by courts all over the world, their big win in the US is extremely unlikely to survive the appeal, what exactly do Apples management think they are going to gain from this except bad publicity?

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Anonymous Coward

You have to either accept patents and protection of IP or not - but think it would kill innovation if we discarded them completely. You ask the average Joe in the street and they would say the Samsung device was near-enough a copy as it is. No one is saying they can't make a tablet but realistically there is a difference between making one and copying one.

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