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back to article Microsoft building its own Phone hardware: Not 'If', but 'When'

Rumours refuse to die about a Surface-like smartphone coming from Microsoft. The Wall St Journal cites unnamed sources as (this time) saying Microsoft is working with component suppliers in Asia to test its own smartphone design. The paper reports Microsoft "is testing a smartphone design but isn't sure if a product will go …

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Anonymous Coward

Tetra 3 slower than Intel Core i5

Who'd believe it.

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Linux

Re: Tetra 3 slower than Intel Core i5

Microsoft shits on its customers then its partners and this is news, how?

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Pint

Re: "Microsoft shits on its customers then its partners and this is news, how?"

I've never quite seen it summed up this well and succinct.

How you did that with so few words amazes me!

The shortest masterpiece of analytical description of a complex aspect of corporate reality I've seen so far.

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Mushroom

Re: "Microsoft shits on its customers then its partners and this is news, how?"

I should add, in this sentence, Apple and Microsoft are interchangeable.

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Coat

Fist they where able to steal from Sendo and now they are stealing from Nokia.

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Anonymous Coward

Indeed

How anybody is still willing to consider "partnering" with Microsoft is beyond me. Or perhaps it just means that the company is in a death spiral.

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Anonymous Coward

@Eadon. Sounds like you know a lot more than me about Microsoft plans for phones and the economics of Xbox and Xbox live. Can you share any news on the rumoured handheld gaming phone to link into the Xbox and Xbox next ecosystems?

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Anonymous Coward

high return rates

Citation needed.

If WP7 handsets were being returned en masse, you can bet your dumb ass that Gavin here would have written a big story about it. Hell, Josh Topolsky would be wearing such a return rate figure on a t-shirt.

There have been no such stories. You made that up.

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Citation provided

http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/brands/2012/07/the-sun-tzu-of-nokisoftian-microkia-mirror-mirror-on-the-wall-whose-the-baddest-of-them-all-waterloo.html

The long URL leads to a huge article. Get your browser to find this text:

Lumia series has the highest return rates in Nokia smartphone history

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Anonymous Coward

High Return Rate

My mates on his 3rd Nokia 610 in 6 months (yes I know one idiot who bought a windows phone) and declares it his worst buy ever.

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Pint

Re: Citation provided

Technically, the word for what you just did to those AC microsoft shills is "pwned", and I'll certainly raise my glass to that :-)

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Anonymous Coward

Ahh yes, the Zune phone. Immortal...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRLRjKCGHek

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Meh

Re: Citation provided

Ah, the Shitpeas Gambit. Anyone who does not parrot your retarded opinion is paid by a company that competes with the company that you wank off every night.

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FAIL

Re: Citation provided

@flocke - great. You link to three textbook chapters of irrelevant wank drawing an unrelated conclusion.

Go you.

And the guy with the 'mate' on his third 610... fake anecdote levels are hitting critical, I'm afraid.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Citation provided @dogged

I shit you not. First 610 packed up, second one they sent was faulty out of the box and now he is on his 3rd.

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Holmes

Re: Citation provided @dogged

No shit you shitted not, Sherlock.

And its amazing how much that word crops up when discussing anything microsoft.

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Happy

Nokia fails because of Elop and Ballmer, not Windows

Ballmer and Elop make the Nokia handsets look like something for sales people. It's pretty sad.

Personally, I'm itching for a Windows 8 phone but I can't find anything but the Two Steve's phone. I wouldn't be caught dead with something that looks as shitty as the Lumia. It looks like something to be sold at Toys R Us in the little girls play makeup section.

Ativ S looks ok, but I won't spend that kind of money knowing Intel based full HD devices are soon to come.

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it's all about the app store

3.6mil licences probably doesn't cover the launch costs for WP7. See that repeated with WP8 and losing the license income really doesn't seem important.

It's also pretty clear MS have bet the future on a steady income stream from their app store. Sacrificing the license stream would hurt but with unlimited riches just an app store away they'll do it just to get the store into wider use.

It's a little weird though: Win8 has been butchered to prop up the lacklustre WP biz but if Google are to be believed delivering apps on mobile isn't a source of riches. So in a way wider WP distribution would then become a way to prop up the app store on the desktop! On the desktop bandwidth is cheap -> costs low = profit!

...but first they have to get some sales and only Nokia seems remotely interested in pushing the phones.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: it's all about the app store

The problem with their app store 'strategy' is that they seem to be taking a sledgehammer to their existing business to get one, rather than the more orthodox approach of building on what they have - treating the app store as a goal, rather than the means to an end.

"Angry Birds WP edition" rather than "Windows Server 20XX" as a strategy? The shareholders will love that.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: you could drive the Torrey Canyon through the wriggle room

The Torrey Canyon. Wasn't that a giant behemoth of a thing that was slow to manoeuvre, couldn't stop and reverse or change direction soon enough, got itself well and truly stranded and, well, ended up bombed?

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Pirate

Re: you could drive the Torrey Canyon through the wriggle room

Indeed it was. Due to a navigational error, it was shipwrecked, caused an environmental disaster and sunk.

Draw your own analogy.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: you could drive the Torrey Canyon through the wriggle room

At least the Torrey Canyon sank. MS has enough money to keep floating around for years doing damage like Yahoo's ghost on steroids.

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Pirate

Re: you could drive the Torrey Canyon through the wriggle room

It's captain claimed to be on a burning platform, but it was a huge lie his true masters had told him to parrot.

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Re: you could drive the Torrey Canyon through the wriggle room

The main damage from the Torrey Canyon was the leaked oil, which must have left an unfortunate legacy lasting years, AND the massive quantities of emulsion dropped on to it intended to break up the oil slick - which did mean of course that every marine creature on top of and below the waves suffered.

Then the RAF bombed the slick with something inflammable to try to get the slick to burn.

Sounds all a bit comical today except it is very unfunny.

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Anonymous Coward

Cheap R&D

Fortunately string's cheap, so are tin cans.

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Well that's it for Nokia then...

Overloaded with middle management, infected with the Elop virus, R&D decimated, eggs into one basket, basket shared with others with no preferential treatment given, and now basket maker wants to lay it's own eggs.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Well that's it for Nokia then...

Sorry for the people still there and who will at some point soonish be without jobs, but they did this to themselves, or more precisely, the management did this to the company. I am not sure how the Finns feel about it, but I can't understand letting Elop go scot-free after destroying in a couple of years a multi-billion company that was a considerable fraction of Finland's economy and biggest mobile phone maker of the world.

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Mushroom

Android Fanbois

"The problem with Microsoft for decades has been twofold: the price of licensing Windows coupled with an operating system that device-makers are not allowed to customise – kit running Windows has always had to feature the Windows look and brand. "

Licensing I will give you as I am sure it is not cheap, however why would anyone need to customize something in terms of the look of Windows Phone when it already looks a thousand times better than android and ios combined??? Live tiles are customizable btw in that the content displayed on them can be selected by the author meaning that if the hw company eg. HTC or whoever wants to include custom apps/live tile information they can. You can also customize the home screen (wallpaper) with notifications from an app if you want to as well.

I know this statement is hard for you guys to understand but Open Source is NOT always the best by the way, this is proven by apple and by the ridiculous amount of articles regarding privacy issues, malware and trojans that make their way into the android operating system.....enjoy needing to carry on rooting and side loading to get the FULL experience.

Last time I looked the xbox360 was about the most popular gaming system on the market and MSFT makes Billions of Dollars every year from an overall strategy, they have more cash than they will ever need to pretty much do whatever they want with so if anyone here really thinks they can't push an idea because it loses money you need to go back to finance school. BTW how were those finances looking at Motorola before they got taken over?!?!?

I could go on but I wont bother because I know the main portion of people here are too blind to actually contemplate that something new could be something good for everyone. Maybe google will bring some more innovation and give you android users a better camera to use after the Lumia 920 dominates the market for phones with a good camera.....maybe they will just keep spitting out the same crap they have been though for the past couple of years too. Enjoy mediocrity, I am gonna enjoy my Lumia 920!!

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Re: Android Fanbois

> it already looks a thousand times better than android and ios

Exactly, that is why it has such a high market share, if it didn't look so much better then the market share would be much less.

> but Open Source is NOT always the best by the way

Exactly, if it was always the best then Android would have a much higher market share than the miserable 75% that it has.

> the xbox360 was about the most popular gaming system on the market and MSFT makes Billions of Dollars

2012Q1 """Microsoft's entertainment and devices division has not been too lucrative lately, with figures revealing a loss of $229 million in the three months ending March 31. As this console generation begins to wrap up, news arrives of Xbox 360 sales falling by nearly 50%."""

2012Q2 """one thing that stood out was a $263 million loss in the Entertainment and Devices division."""

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Android Fanbois

Are you RICHTO ?

I think you must be !

"after the Lumia 920 dominates the market for phones " - after the Microsoft 920 dominates the market for phones - fixed it for you

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FAIL

Re: Android Fanbois

Talk to the millions of businesses around the world that use windows and office and server etc etc, I don't see anyone switching to something else any time soon so to compare IBM to MS is not an apples to apples comparison (excuse the pun). Frankly its not even relevant and why you brought it up I have no clue.

Also who said anything about microsoft wanting to destroy the market for android phones? You introduced that with your comments regarding netbooks and netbooks suck because who wants an underpowered laptop when you get a real laptop so it was a bad idea in the first place....oh I forgot though an underpowered computer, thats a nice use for linux right....

I also said Microsoft as a whole makes billions of dollars NOT xbox or any one division and definitely not the entertainment division...if I was not clear here I apologize but you maybe you should re-read my original post.

My point here and for my post is the fact that you all as android fans cannot accept the fact there actually might be a good 3rd alternative to a smartphone device so writers on this site and you as a blogger have to flame it with every chance you get. Actually there is a good alternative, windows phone 7 is good and windows phone 8 is even better than 7, iphone is good too and competition is good for the market.

Suck It Up and Go Enjoy Sideloading something into your Nexus.

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FAIL

Re: Android Fanbois

Tell me that the OS for WP is not more attractive than iOS or Android please.......market share has nothing to do with visual styling.

Your 2nd point again market share has no relevant point with that comment.

Your 3rd point is also irrelevant, I didn't say Xbox earns MS Billions of Dollars, I said MS (As a Whole) earns Billions of dollars.

Learn to read before you flame!!!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Android Fanbois

"competition is good for the market."

Just like the desktop - Oh wait ....

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Unhappy

Re: Android Fanbois@Regulator-RICHTO

"you all as android fans cannot accept the fact there actually might be a good 3rd alternative to a smartphone device"

Most of us would concede that WP8 will be a competent phone OS. And most of us expect it to become the third man. The problem is that there's not going to be much money gained by pushing in as a latecomer who (and this is the critical bit) offers nothing new. To be undifferentiated in a market of three, now there's an achievement.

Being "good" isn't enough. I won't buy a WP phone even though it probably is quite good. I won't buy it because it doesn't offer anything new, it comes with an interface that looks poor to my eyes, and MS (and key partner) Nokia have a poor record of running away from their customers, leaving unsupported or not quite finished software.

And MS's refusal to offer a proper desktop version of Windows 8, despite clear communication from consumers proves that this is a company that still doesn't care about its customers.

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Re: Android Fanbois

"enjoy needing to carry on rooting and side loading to get the FULL experience."

Why would I need to root my phone or tablet? You know that takes you outside of Google's walled garden and means malware can dig itself in deep? Not to mention the void warranty.

As for "sideloading", named like it's some massively technical procedure, do you really take the average user to be such a plank that they can't drag and drop the APK file, find it in the phone and click on it? To be honest, Average User doesn't need to sideload to do what they want.

As for open source not being always the best, it damned well is in this case. You could argue that Microsoft almost invented the GNU GPL, because Linux and the Gnu project probably wouldn't have gotten half the traction it has without them. It's a great defense against Microsoft's (or anybody else's) monopolistic practises. Just what you want in something essential to an entire industry, like a common operating system.

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Re: Android Fanbois@Regulator-RICHTO

> this is a company that still doesn't care about its customers.

It seems to be a common mistake that users think that they are Microsoft's 'customers'. You are not. Microsoft's customers are the OEMs, the retailers, and the telcos. You are a customer of those.

In previous years Microsoft's customers wanted new Windows versions to require new faster hardware that degraded slowly over a couple of years that could only be solved by buying yet another new computer, or at least some upgrades.

In general terms MS did care about its customers by killing off the old dead WM6.x and requiring new shiny WP7 phones that were in turn killed off by not being upgradable to WP8. This requires, yet again, new phones to be purchased by users. This seems to not work so well for phones, perhaps because there is no MS monopoly there.

It seems also that the OEMs and retailers are not so enthusiastic about Surface taking their market and MS shops taking sales. In addition MS want to provide the only services for Windows 8/RT and WP8 so the OEMs are making a pittance to supply users for MS to continue to make revenue from.

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FAIL

Re: Android Fanbois@Regulator-RICHTO

"To be undifferentiated in a market of three, now there's an achievement." remind me again who just got sued for a billion dollars for copying someone else's OS? Oh wait that would be Samsung regarding Android....Talk about lack of differentiation.....I would argue that MS actually has the most differentiation in the market not the other way around.

"MS (and key partner) Nokia have a poor record of running away from their customers" - that's right because when Nokia discovered a bug early in the release of the Lumia 900 they didn't give every customer an account credit even if they didn't have the bug.....that running away thing is horrible I just can't stand how they treat their customers.

And before you go into how WP7 phones are not upgradeable to WP8 don't even bother because c'est la via, technology changes very quickly these days, I would never expect any piece of technology not to be outdated within 6 months of purchasing it.

BTW, Windows 8 is actually pretty good but takes a lot of getting used to on a desktop without touch, that has nothing to do with MS wanting to shaft their customers again its the evolution of the market, change is painful sometimes but if you used it for 5 minutes then gave up because it was different than what you are used to then you should go back and take another look.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion but it makes me angry to come to a forum like el reg (which is supposed to be a news aggregation site) and see people just talking smack with nothing to back it up. Nothing is ever perfect with a mobile os but at least MS is trying to do something different vs just emulating android/ios.

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Re: Android Fanbois@Regulator-RICHTO

> And before you go into how WP7 phones are not upgradeable to WP8 don't even bother because c'est la via, technology changes very quickly these days, I would never expect any piece of technology not to be outdated within 6 months of purchasing it.

The problem with WP7 being dead-ended is not so much 'technology change' but the control that MS put on its phones, and the fact that WP7 phones were outdated years ago.

MS dictated that WP7 phones could only be single core. This was because the WinCE base could not utilise more than one. WP8 was required to be dual core. Any rational development cycle would have catered for the building of WP7 phones with the dual core SoCs that could be upgraded to WP8 even if it could make only limited use of the 2nd.

The real problem with WP7 was that it was not a leading edge product when first released and it made no significant improvement over its life. It became further and further behind the competition as they introduced new features and better hardware. WP8 is a catchup that should make it competitive but the MS development cycle (or lack of it) will likely have it fall behind yet again.

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Facepalm

Re: Windows Phone already looks a thousand times better than android and ios combined???

LOL

Only fools are deluded by their own personal taste...

...into believing everyone else must have the same taste.

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Anonymous Coward

Hmm

Isn't this still based on the NT kernel?

So they've slapped a new gui on it and called it macaroni... and they want $15-20 for tech that had its cost amortized rather a long time ago?

That strikes me as a lot of margin if you're selling millions of the things and they don't have a locked-in base as they do for PCs.

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No they wont

They might, at most design their own phone, probably even just "designing" it as in "coming up with specifications". Microsoft surely won't produce it, they will out-source that to a Chinese company, possibly Foxcon.

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FAIL

Rearranging deck chairs on the MS-Windows as its heading straight towards...

...two icebergs named Apple and Google.

After destroying other markets, I think nobody wants Microcruft to embrace-and-destroy the mobile market.

I don't think anybody would really miss Microsoft. The company was built on basically screwing the Programmer of DOS in a great trickery. I think we could all do without any more sleazy business practices.

Not that Google and Apple would exactly be holding still anyway.

Microcruft's Office has long seen nothing but cosmetic alterations screwing corporations into having to retrain their employees for very little functional benefit if any.

Charts in Excel 2010 are now less adjustable than they were in Excel 2003. But we have a 'nifty' RIBBON that takes up 3 times as much screen space as the menu.

I call that and the Windows 8 changes "Rearranging deck chairs". There are some benefits of Windows 8 over Windows 7 on the desktop, but they are hidden under a pile of sillyness designed for Phone screens that doesn't work on large computer displays at all.

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