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back to article Apple ordered to open its books on iPhone, iPad profits

The judge in the ongoing Apple versus Samsung patent trial has ruled that Cupertino must disclose financial information on the profitability of its iPad and iPhone lines so that proper damages can be assessed. Apple won the initial stage of its trial against Samsung over the Korean manufacturer's infringement of Cupertino's …

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Anonymous Coward

How much... HOW MUCH..... HOOOOOOOOW. MUUUUUUUUUUCH 'THUD'

The sound of Judge Kohl collapsing after seeing the documents relating to Apple profit.

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On a serious note, this could be important. Apple will need to prove direct damage to their bottom line by the introduction of these "offending" Samsung products.

And even worse, they'd need to prove that it's the design from the violated patent that cause Samsung to gain market share at the expense of Apple.

If the judge has any sense, he'll tell Apple to take a hike with their multi-bn claim, and peg it at $1.

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@Silverburn

She...

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I figure that they don't want people to know how much they are making on apps rather than the physical product. After all, once the figures for 1 are known, experts will be able to make some educated guesses about the other.

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Silver badge

That part is not hard to figure out

They show iTunes profits (which include the app store) separately from the hardware sales of iPhone and iPad. They reported just under $2 billion in revenue (not profit) in Q2 2012, for example, but didn't break that out between songs and apps. The profits on the apps can't be more than a few percent of what they make on the hardware.

Given how few products Apple has, it hasn't been hard for analysts to make some very educated guesses about the profit margins on both iPhone and iPad given that the total revenue and unit sales for each are reported quarterly, and as the mix changes the effect of iPhone's higher and iPad's lower margins move Apple's overall gross margin. There wouldn't be anything in these numbers that would surprise or inform Wall Street analysts who've done the math, or those who have read articles detailing their findings.

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Anonymous Coward

Actually we already know what they make on every app sold; 30%. The developers make the app, put it in the store and then make money with every sale. it is not like Apple could keep it all a secret. They also get 30% for any in app purchase as well.

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@AC

Just a guess, but I suspect he was after an actual amount rather than a percentage. We all know it's 30%, what we don't know is how much cash they come away with at the end of each quarter as a result of selling those apps.

Though, to be fair, I'm not sure I care

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Silver badge

@Ben

And the court will care about profit, not revenue. If Apple had to provide some info on how much it costs to run the app store that would be quite interesting. I suspect they make very little when all is said and done, but the app store was never intended to be a major profit center.

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Anonymous Coward

The App Store and all of the iTunes media stores are run at just above break even.

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Anonymous Coward

That's revenue, he wants to know about profit.

Profit = revenue - costs.

Running a huge data centre is a costly business.

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@AC

The App Store and all of the iTunes media stores are run at just above break even.

So we've been told, guess Judge Koh will be finding out for sure though!

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g e
Silver badge

Here's your cake.

Now EAT IT

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Gold badge

Subtle..

Why do I get the sense that the judge is trying to make Apple see that ending this nonsense is going to be better than proceeding?

I may like some Apple gear, but I sure as hell do not like what the company is doing in court. It serves no useful purpose. Would the outcome of this really influence how people buy?

All you get is grey import - the way this case is progressing shows IMHO very clearly that the argument is balanced - it's not black and white. This means that the judge is more likely to look at the greater good as part of the judgement, and I think that really doesn't do Apple any favours.

As I have argued elsewhere, in a way, an Apple product is like fashion - and they don't have copyright protection at all, only trademarks are covered.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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Silver badge
WTF?

This Judge is all over the place

She screws both parties by limiting the evidence; she knocks Samsung's exhibits because they are too late.

Then she shafts Apple by delaying the Apple injunction to block Samsung sales until December - likely reducing iThingie sales.

Now she wants Apple to drop their pants and tell all their Fanbois just how much money they make?

Painful medicine.

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Bronze badge

I am starting to like this judge....

Hopefully, it IS her goal to give apple an "out" so this mess ends soooooooner rather than later, sooner being December.

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Headmaster

Correction

The Jury foreman's name is "Hogan", with an "n".

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20121002201632770

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Alien

Bait and Switch

I can see it happening now. Apple reluctantly releases the figures the judge is asking for, then the judge turns around and grants Samsungs application for a mistrial and orders a new trial.

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Silver badge

Apple in a quandry

Their products are grossly overpriced.

To maximize the Damages they want to suggest they lost X sales at Y profit per sale. But the public may be revolted by a Profit margin x2 to x4 other vendors (or whatever it is).

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Bronze badge
Facepalm

Wholesome

Whatever the Apple does I hope it supplements the request with other details about product development costs, research costs and losses due to devices failing to appeal to the public.

Idea: new (commercial) stuff in IT is a gamble, Some win, some lose.

Some win in a mega-big way, Some lose in a mega-big way (ask the judge to look at Nokia's real life example of poor decision making/taking/implementing)

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Anonymous Coward

And this will be

Where all that dodgy offshore accounting and showing a loss in some higher tax revenus countries will bite them in the arse

How much profit did you make?

lost 1.2 million well you get nothing back then because last year you lost more than 1.7 so the infringing product actually aided your company, you owe samsung a drink

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