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back to article Edgy penguins test-fly Ubuntu's Quantal Quetzal

Forget colourful foliage and dropping temperatures, nothing says autumn for Linux nerds like the arrival of an Ubuntu beta. This season includes twice the fun, with Canonical plotting not one, but two betas for the coming Quantal Quetzal, or Ubuntu 12.10. The first arrived on Thursday. Quantal Quetzal comes hot on the heels of …

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Anonymous Coward

Sigh

Of all the screen shots you could have shown, you chose to show an error message when something crashes, which frankly you should expect from a beta anyway.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sigh

while there are several encouraging signs that 12.10 will improve on 12.04, unfortunately many of the problems that have plagued Ubuntu's Unity interface since its release remain, including frequent Compiz crashes

I for one would expect a release (yes, even a beta one) to correct such a well known and painful bug that has existed for several releases. But I guess we don't have the same expectations (which incidentally is probably why I prefer Debian over Ubuntu).

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Re: Sigh

I still have yet to see any Compiz unity crashes on my laptop... Maybe I didn't enable Compiz.

Although saying that, it seems my laptop doesn't recognize I have both sandybridge graphics AND nvidia. Need to look through the ilnux drivers for that stuff, still a noob.

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Re: Sigh

How do you know that that is the same 'well known' bug? That is such an uninformative and sanitised error message that I would expect it is used when any sort of error occurs that could originate from any of a bazillion different bugs.

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Anonymous Coward

@djack

Granted, to be accurate one should read "problem" instead of "bug". But whether this problem is caused by just one bug or several bugs doesn't really change the fact that Unity makes Compiz crash regularly, and that it's still not fixed even though it exists since 10.10 (that's almost 2 years!).

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Re: @djack

I'm not saying the problem is not there - the proof is in the screenshot in the article even without looking elsewhere, and i am sure the issue is well documented elsewhere - but Unity and Compiz have been perfectly stable on my computer in 12.04. Slightly sluggish at times, but my Ubuntu box has a P4 and a graphics card from the same era, so I can forgive that.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sigh

" it seems my laptop doesn't recognize I have both sandybridge graphics AND nvidia. Need to look through the ilnux drivers for that stuff, still a noob."

Does that mean that you have Optimus stuff in there? If so, then you're not a noob, the support just isn't really there seamlessly yet. An NVidia bod is hacking some XRandR stuff to support it, mind. The support for 6xx gen Nvidia devicews under Linux isn't as stellar as you'd expect.. yet. I am sure it will get there, though.

Anyway, you're probably not a noob, just it's a strange situation. If your computer is running OK, and you're happy, I wouldn't sweat it. Obviously, if it's just morbid curiosity, don't let me discourage you from enjoying the excuse to nerd out, though :)

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Re: Sigh

Is it really one bug or various different video-hardware dependent different ones?

Beta testing needs people to check against open bugs and to post new ones. That is why Ubuntu release them!

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FAIL

Shame

It still has Unity, won't be coming back to ubuntu for this one then.

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Re: Shame

It may ship with Unity, but, you can easily install Gnome, XFCE and such .

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Re: Shame

"It may ship with Unity, but, you can easily install Gnome, XFCE and such ."

For varying definitions of "easy". Easy to install the packages, infuriating to make them work properly. I don't know exactly what Canonical did with their switch to Unity, but it broke some things that make a simple "apt-get install gnome" turn into "install the packages.. then spend the afternoon fixing things that break".

Besides, I'm pretty sure hitting the Distribution Upgrade button will override all of your preferences and go back to that godawful Unity thing again. Yes I use Ubuntu, for now. I have Mint in a VM and it's becoming more tempting by the day. It's like Ubuntu... but it works!

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Re: Shame

"$ sudo apt-get install xfce4"

Then on the login screen, make sure you have "XFCE" selected as the Desktop environment. That way it doesn't haul in all the Xubuntu packages as well.

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Re: Shame

"For varying definitions of "easy". Easy to install the packages, infuriating to make them work properly" -- Not in my experience. I just searched gnome in Ubuntu Software centre, logged out, adjusted the session to be Gnome instead unity and logged in (as the poster above stated for XFCE)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Shame

"For varying definitions of "easy". Easy to install the packages, infuriating to make them work properly"

Hmm, it was a straighforward aptitude install for me, and XCFE worked perfectly. I really like it, actually.

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Meh

Re: Shame

The fact people are having to explain it, is the reason the Unity UI fails.

I like Linux, all my machines are Linux but Ui's should be functional and 12.04 removed the simple tick box for getting rid of it, and I just can't be bothered hunting google when the time taken to install ubuntu 12.04 is the same time it took to install MINT 12.

And as I like to try new flavours every now and then, MINT didn't have the issues and still had a functional UI.

- Granted I had loads of graphic issues in MINT to start, but then in 12.04 I had loads of network issues (you still need to install SAMBA, really? It isn't default yet?) to solve, so it balances out.

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@Dredd

>>"$ sudo apt-get install xfce4"

isn't it rather "sudo apt-get install xubintu-desktop"?

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Re: @Dredd

More like download the mini install disk and choose Xubuntu installation.

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Coat

Re: Shame

I just found Linux Mint as well - easier (for me) to use and a lot more responsive!

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Boffin

Re: @Dredd

[quote]

>>"$ sudo apt-get install xfce4"

isn't it rather "sudo apt-get install xubintu-desktop"?

[/quote]

Depends if you want the basics of xfce4 interface together with the default apps (gnome-terminal, gedit &c) or if you want the whole xubuntu desktop (abiword, gnumeric, leafpad &c). There are various package sets.

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Re: Shame

"varying degrees of easy"

How about downloading the Gnome, XFCE, KDE etc spin instead and installing that?

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Alert

No mention of Kubuntu?

Kubuntu also beta'd

http://www.kubuntu.org/news/12.10-beta-1

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

Yep - with all the Gnome & Unity hoohah its nice to be able to resort to a stabilised KDE4. Trouble is now Kubuntu is not officially supported are we going the same way as the other *buntu distributions and be broken by Canonical's obsession with Unity?

If so - then I'll be off to a proper mainstream KDE based distribution. Any suggestions?

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

Kubuntu is fine for me. As a long-time Debian user, I appreciate Kubuntu's fast turnaround of updates to KDE/QT. Never had an issue upgrading to the latest release - I update it as a rolling-release.

Kubuntu still has 'paid' developers:

http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kubuntu-to-be-sponsored-by-blue-systems

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Happy

Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

You might like to take a look at Mageia. It's got most of the Mandriva goodies, e.g. Diskdrake, Mandriva Control Centre and so on but with the assurance that it WILL be maintained, unlike Mandriva which looks decidedly uncertain at the moment.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

I instructed an acquaintance by email to install 32-bit Mageia 1 (which I was investigating about this time last year) - he'd never installed Linux before. Worked well for him, but I want 64-bit and Mageia 1 x86_64 was an absolute disaster! This was partly due to the ATI graphics. The 32-bit version ran fine on the same box (as does opensuse, kubuntu and all versions of Windows from XP on. Completely and utterly incompetent, by which I mean releasing it as a stable version. I guess the next build will be out by about now, but the fact they released it like that makes me wary of giving it another try. Mandrake was the first distro I tried and remained my favourite up until installing a new Mandriva build a few years ago and I wanted the documentation up during installation and it came up in some Eastern European language. I was quite excited when I learned of the existence of Mageia.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

) <- forgot that!

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

Remind me again how it's the Mageia's fault, when some manufacturer refuses to release proper documentation for their hardware that would enable any competent programmer to write a driver?

This is exactly the sort of thing about which you should be complaining to your elected representatives, because it ought to be illegal.

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

Another vote in favour of Mageia (2). Stable for me since its release

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

>This is exactly the sort of thing about which you should be complaining to your elected representatives, because it ought to be illegal.

Somehow, I doubt she would care.

Which is good, because I certainly would feel very uncomfortable with that level of government regulation of the IT industry. Unless the vendor is in a monopoly position.

People buying hardware have plenty of more OSS friendly vendors to choose from, which is good.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: how it's (the) Mageia's fault

Because everyone else manages it just fine, you forgetful twat.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

I was just about to try Mageia 2. Then I followed the errata link next to the warning that on some notebooks with nVidia or Radeon graphics it might not work (or words to that effect, but anyway the same bloody problem as in Mageia 1! Though I thought it was _only_ Radeons were too hard for them in 1. Now they can't manage nVidia graphics either? Well there go the only two makes I've ever owned!). Apparently the suggested workaround is to use the Live CD, unfortunately then the Wi-Fi probably won't work. Well, I guess I can't complain that this is so bloody amateurish, as after all I asked for it!

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Re: No mention of Kubuntu?

If so - then I'll be off to a proper mainstream KDE based distribution. Any suggestions?

Personally, I have always been a huge fan of the Pardus distribution, which is KDE4-based. You can find more information about Pardus and download it at: http://www.pardus.org.tr/en

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Happy

I'll say this very quietly...

...but I like Unity. I've got the 12.04 running on both a Samsung NC10 and my desktop, and I find it pretty simple to navigate, and it doesn't try to get in my way.

Maybe it's because I never really got into Gnome or KDE, and I don't know any better. But I'm definitely a Unity fan.

(sorry!)

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Re: I'll say this very quietly...

Yup, many do use Unity and don't shout.

Teenagers I hand my Thinkpad X200s to (1280/800 Intel graphics, Ubuntu just works) can usually work out how to get a Web browser and a wordprocessor going in a couple of minutes, although they do tend to click the system icon ('cogwheel') on the top right when they want to close windows because the window controls are hidden when the window is maximised.

http://spreadubuntu.org/en/material/brochure/1204-poster

for those with an open mind.

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am I a luddite ?

coz I really don't get on with Unity.

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Happy

Re: am I a luddite ?

Nope, probably you are using your desktop to get some work done and not just "consuming" stuff like Facebook or watching a DVD on a tablet, which Unity seems to be aimed at.

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Re: am I a luddite ?

I use my desktop for all sorts, using Unity - no problem. Just a matter of getting used to it. Some of the Dash features are actually quite useful, others still need work.

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Re: am I a luddite ?

I use my laptop to do real work (development, system admin, office tasks, accounting and a few other things) and I find that Unity is a lot better than GNOME 2 to help me get it done. But then we all have different ways of working and it may just be that my way of working fits Unity whle your way of working fits another environment. That doesn't make either good or bad.

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Re: am I a luddite ?

No, it doesn't make you as luddite. Don't get me wrong, I use it and I think it's great for both consuming staff and getting real work done. I have my most used applications locked to the launcher, like I have done in other DEs, the dash makes finding other apps quick in the same way as Windows 7, Gnome shell, Mint Menu and KDE 4 have done for ages, and HUD is cumbersome for some applications like Nautilus, but genuinely useful for things like Gimp where there are lots of options tucked away in the menus.

However, each to their own. That's the point of Linux and the reason we have so many DEs and distributions.

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Re: am I a luddite ?

I think it is quite an irony that Unity is so divisive. Clearly people either like it or hate it.

I have never used it (we use KDE at work, and therefore I use it at home just to have the same environment), so have no opinion on its merits (or lack thereof).

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Re: am I a luddite ?

I do development on my machines and use different logins for different setups - things like eclipse and netbeans need different logins for different personalities. Also my kids use my machines and have separate logins.

Unity does not like that at all and switching times seem to get exponentially larger.

I have yet to see what unity does that is supposed to improve my computer experience.

Gone back to xubuntu and things are better but the machines still go away on their own from time to time unless I do a complete re-install.

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Happy

Just a matter of getting used to it - Just like any handicap.

>Just a matter of getting used to it.

Xfce'ing and loving it.

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Re: am I a luddite ?

No, your are not alone. I do work on a desktop, not a fucking fondleslab.

Ever since that clustefuck (Unity) arrived, I have ripped it out of each one of my Ubuntu installs.

For support reasons, I have a machine that individual installs of 9.10, 10.04, 10.10, 11.04, 11.10, 12.04 and a test bed of 12.10.

In each one of them, where Unity was installed, I ripped it out. First thing after the install was:

sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

and goodbye to Unity.

Another hint, get rid of those dammed overlay scrollbars!!!!! What a pain in the ass!

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Anonymous Coward

FIX GNOME

I really wish Canonical would realize that the Gnome developers need an adult - somebody to actually perform project management, and to be the voice of the people who matter: the users. I would love for Canonical to look at the Gnome devs they employ and say

"OK, now we are going to behave like grown-up developers. We are going to stop deprecating features users want just because you saw something you thought was 'cool'. We are going to realize that the desktop computer, the tablet, the phone, and the set-top box are all different user interface paradigms, and deserve different treatment. We are going to insure that before we remove a component, an API, or a feature, we have a form/fit/function replacement ready for use, and only then will we mark something deprecated, and only after a reasonable period of time will we remove the feature. We will examine any module we plan on removing, and work up a detailed set of requirements that module meets. We will NOT engage in the 'Cascade of Attention-deficit disorder Teenager' development mode.

Canonical cannot dictate these changes to the whole Gnome developer community, but it sure as hell can dictate it to you who are paid by Canonical. If you don't like it, to quote The Gord, 'Door's to your left.', HR is down the way and they have forms for letters of resignation. Your immediate job is to come up with a plan for how you will provide form/fit/function replacements for the old desktop - that's a panel, a reasonable window manager with support for multiple workspaces, and all the standard Gnome 2 applet. I want time estimates by end of business today, iteration plans by the end of the next business day, and a schedule for the first iteration the day after that."

I'd also love to see Canonical call Red Hat, Novell, and the leaders of the Debian project, and say "We are doing this whether you help or not, but it would be best if you did help. "

Of course, all that said, there's a lot of things I'd like, but that I'm unlikely to get.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: FIX GNOME

" We are going to realize that the desktop computer, the tablet, the phone, and the set-top box are all different user interface paradigms, and deserve different treatment."

Hmm, when you've done that, can you tell Microsoft too, please?

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Re: FIX GNOME

What they could also be doing is helping out the mate developers. Among Unity, Gnome3 and Cinnamon Mate is the most functional and stable yet a very beautiful desktop.

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Mushroom

Nah bury it its dead.

pos

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Stop

Re: Hmm, when you've done that, can you tell Microsoft too, please?

NO, don't

I could care less if M$ wandered down the path to UI hell with their WindblowZE 8/Metro abomination.

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Canonical EOL on my unit

Canonical continues to move further and further away from it's Debian base, if for no other reason than to be different. I cant stand what they did with runlevels and startup, and the new UI SUCKS. What, we're supposed to remember all the names and functions of our installed apps by icons? Isn't that how the Chinese alphabet got started?

WTF is with these vendors who think a PC that works like a phone is going to be sooooo badass? I write code. I create media. I custom build software packages. I want a command line, not some flashy, inaccurate and poorly responsive touch panel to sooth dull minds.

I still haven't upgraded my Lucid 10.04 laptop, but when I do, I can assuredly say it will not be a Canonical distro. Debian makes a pretty nice desktop these days, and I've been thinking about giving Slackware a spin.

One desktop to rule them all, eh? Good luck with that. What's that proverb.... something about eggs in one basket....

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