back to article 'This lawsuit is not about patents or money, it's about values'

This was the week when analysts, pundits, beancounters and opinion-holders of all stripes got to have their say on the Apple v Samsung patent verdict going the fruity firm's way. While Apple pushed hard to get Samsung mobes pulled from the shelves as soon as humanly possible, the Korean chaebol vowed to fight on and passed some …

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Interesting article on the BBC today, an interview with the "head" jury bloke who from that article alone should get Samsung their appeal won (he's seriously stupid). One of the comments though brought something interesting that I hadn't thought of.

The jury were railroaded, err, deliberated for 21 hours and had to answer 700 very complicated questions, if you work that out it puts it down as answering each (complicated) question every 2 minutes.

The head jurist was also pretty stupid in how he interpreted prior art "it's not prior art, it's just an older implementation of the same stuff". Why hasn't El Reg picked up that article and got the guys from Outlaw to laugh at it?

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Sounds interesting...

Got a link?

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Boffin

Re: Sounds interesting...

This is a good summary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19425052

I particularly like the bit where Our Hero redefines prior art on pinch-to-zoom with a requirement that the Apple implementation should be op-code compatible with the older hardware. Utterly bizarre.

GJC

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Re: Sounds interesting...

Yep

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19425052

And in example after example, when we put it to the test, the older prior art was just that. Not that there's anything [wrong] with older prior art - but the key was that the hardware was different, the software was an entirely different methodology, and the more modern software could not be loaded onto the older example and be run without error.

Ignoring prior art because it's prior is........ answers on a postcard please.

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Joke

Re: Sounds interesting...

http://www.hiwtc.com/photo/products/7/06/51/65149.jpg

Comming soon, the innavative and not at all copied from anyone else, Apple Excavator!

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Re: My postcard

Utterly Dagenham(*), I'd say.

GJC

(*) for our foreign listeners, Dagenham is a town in Essex which is several stops beyond Barking on the District line of the London Underground(**)

(**) Jokes really don't work when you explain then, do they?

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"The head jurist was also pretty stupid in how he interpreted prior art "it's not prior art, it's just an older implementation of the same stuff". "

look at the patent he owns that statement describes it in a nutshell.

His patent was filed 3 years after TiVo came out which describes a DVR in very vague terms....

So he basically patented a DVR after a DVR was out already, and got it granted.

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Re: (**) Jokes really don't work when you explain then, do they?

Even if it doesn't get the guffaw, an explained joke can still be appreciated for its artfulness. Which is better than being left to wonder if this is some Wodehousian mystery left unread...

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Re: My postcard

Isn't Becontree Tube Station two stop on from Barking?

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@Kevin 6

So basically, if you boil it down to the basic essentials, he would never have awarded it to Samsung on prior art grounds as to do so would invalidate his own patent? Now I'm not a lawyer (I have a soul, which okay, maybe I considered selling for a Honda Fireblade at one time or another) but doesn't that sort of, I dunno, make him possibly the worst jurist since the Rodney King trial?

(apologies for using Rodney King in such a flippant manner, but it's true!)

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Happy

Re: @Matt

Quite likely, which is why I said "Several"

GJC

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Re: @Matt

Sorry Geoff, what passes for my brain read your joke in the form in which I first heard it (which was two stops on from Barking).

I also heard people being referred to as "Upminster" and I found http://www.oedilf.com/db/Lim.php?Word=beyond%20Barking. I suppose it's what my Cornish cousins would call " a bit Bodmin".

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Pint

Re: My postcard

@Matt 21. By jove I think you are right. Dagenham is 3 stop[s up (& has disabled facilities) Quiet Friday afternoon...so.far!

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Pint

Re: @Matt

Brain: Weird, so did mine & don't recall ever hearing that joke. Great minds & all that.

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WTF?

Re: Sounds interesting...

I read that earlier - incredible how bullish he seems to be about laying down the law to the rest of the jury. Now I don't know how that works in a US court (oh ho ho) but it all sounds to me like a bad episode of some TV drama where some cantankerous or borderline autistic coronor / forensic advisor / janitor / juror gets to usurp the role of both judge and legal counsel and overturn the case. Not something you'd want to happen in a real courtroom.

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Re: Sounds interesting...

I read, and saw, Runaway Jury a couple of days ago. Interesting...

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FAIL

Re: Sounds interesting...

Anyone think his argument that the software on the old machines couldn't run on the new being grounds to dismiss prior art, yet Android and Samsungs TouchWiz on top of that quite clearly would not work on an Apple device on a software level... but that's totally different don'tchayknow?

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Re: Sounds interesting...

Now I don't know how [being a jury foreman] works in a US court

I've been the jury foreman in a US district-court criminal trial; I've never served on the jury in a civil case, or in Federal court, but if it's similar, the powers granted to the foreman / forewoman are pretty vague. Mostly it comes down to rhetoric - a juror who argues well against grandstanding or procedural abuse by the fore can probably swing enough opinion in the room to shut it down.

However, In my (admittedly limited) experience - and anecdotes I've heard from others who've served corroborate this - many jurors worry about doing something wrong, and are happy to follow the fore in procedural matters.

it all sounds to me like a bad episode of some TV drama

What happens in the courtroom itself, of course, is mostly dreary dull - the TV and film courtroom dramas are ridiculously implausible in that regard. But in deliberations things can get heated.

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about values?

Ha anyone with a brains and can read a web page, you can see Samsung was whooping apples ass in about every market. Apple has failed to innovate their phones for years and Samsung has caught up and has a better phone. Apples only recourse is a lawsuit using their home town jury to steer the verdict in apple's favor. Sad part is they talked about how they did and now everyone see's the jury was joke by throwing out clear prior art to give apple more money. This case was never about values, it was about money and getting Samsung's phones off the market. Plane and simple.

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EWI

Re: about values?

...with blatant knock-offs of Apple's phones, as you conspicuously failed to mention. Therefore the thrashing in court.

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Pint

Re: about values?

"Plane and simple"...oh no! Don't tell me Boeing & Airbus are getting into it too..

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FAIL

Re: about values?

if you want to talk about knock-off's the Iphone looked almost identical to a device Samsung announced in 2006, and rlsed in like jan 2007 like 8 months before iphone was even announced or released.

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Pirate

I'll never buy an Apple product again!

I never liked Apple anyway, a company which continues to control the devices it sells after it sells them. The way they are locked down. The closedness of the software and the uncanny similarities between the ways that they do business and the way Microsoft do business. None of that appeals to me.

This latest game of Apple has just reinforced my resolve to never buy an apple product, either personally or in my company.

I don't think one billion dollars will come close to covering the loss of consumer love that they will experience because of their greed.

Death to Apple!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I'll never buy an apple product again!

I like apples. This fiji I'm munching on is pretty good. I even like them more than oranges.

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Re: I'll never buy an apple product again!

IF you like fijis, you should try a varietal called "goldrush" Best apple, Ever. It has all of the positive aspects of fiji, pink lady, and braeburn, all in one apple.

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Anonymous Coward

I don't know who I loathe more, Apple or Obama. They both have most of the world sandbagged.

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"They both have most of the world sandbagged"

What you mean to say is they have most of AMERICA sandbagged.

Once again, America is not the world.

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Joke

Re: "They both have most of the world sandbagged"

Wrong. USA is the world. USA. USA. USA. You're probably not even over six feet tall are you.

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WTF?

Apple-Samsung, Assange-Haig (without the latter being named), and O2

all in the same posting, Brid-Aine ! Do you have a permit for that wide-bore shotgun you're using ?...

Henri

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Anonymous Coward

flapple

anyone noticed that flapple lost again today,this time in japan.

so the only place flapple have managed a permanent win is in the usa.

please,please write/email to your local mp and euro mp and ask for ALL flapple products to be banned in the whole of the eu.

flapple/ms want to be big fish,let em,but only in that country of the lard arse stupid,the good old us of a.

there they can be big fish in tiny pond,wonder when the money folk will catch on that perhaps flapple have gone too far and start flogging off flapple stock,while they still can get their money back.

cos i reckon as soon as the stock price starts to drop more than 5-10% it will turn into avalanche,you never know even lard arse yank folk may catch on and just stop buying the flapple bullshit and just stop buying their products,their already having problems with pre-orders for jesus phone 5,fingers crossed that there is not last minute rush to buy it.

it would be the begining of the end for flapple bubbl

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Re: flapple

its not a permanent win, The judge can throw out the jury verdict or Samsung has the appeal route.

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Re: flapple

Please, enough already. "Flapple" was amusing the first time. Now it's just bloody annoying.

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Samsung will almost certainly win the appeal

They only meed use the lead jurors interview comments they can get the verdict overturned. "Run without error", seriously?

That's either a complete and utter misunderstanding of the law, or a statement of fact that it is fundamentally impossible for Samsung (or indeed anybody else) to infringe on Apple's patents without using exactly the same iPhone/iPad hardware.

Samsung's S2 spin of Android won't run on an iPhone without error, and vice-versa.

TBH, I half wonder if that juror is now at risk of a contempt charge.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: flapple

"Samsung still has the appeal route" I wonder if Apple are thinking of patenting "A process for appealing against judgments delivered by courts." Okay, prior art exists but so did implementations of WIMP's before the Mac was ever thought of, and we never heard Xerox moaning.

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News

Mind-numbingly inept behaviour by O2 is not news - its normal!

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FAIL

to quote an article from groklaw, After we debated that first patent -- what was prior art --because we had a hard time believing there was no prior art, that there wasn't something out there before Apple. "In fact we skipped that one," Ilagan continued, "so we could go on faster. It was bogging us down. ... "Once you determine that Samsung violated the patents," Ilagan said, "it's easy to just go down those different [Samsung] products because it was all the same." Pretty much was death of that verdict in my mind, cause that quote made it look like they completely dumped prior art as even possible to kill the patent as even being valid.

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Anonymous Coward

>> that there wasn't something out there before Apple

He's a fanboi, no doubt about it, and should not have been on the jury, let alone head of it.

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Anonymous Coward

Fanboi or not, he's a patent holder

Which means he's got a vested interest in finding for the patent holder so should probably have been recused in the first place.

To top it off, at least one of his patents looks pretty dodgy from over here. (PVR functionality after TiVo was shipping?)

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Facepalm

Rafeal Correra

"The crimes that Assange is accused of, they would not be crimes in 90 to 95 per cent of the planet."

This from someone who runs a country where if you're caught with a bit of weed you're looking at up to 16 years in the clink. Also if you happen to be driving and involved in an accident in which any party is injured or killed, you will be arrested and jailed pending enquiries regardless of circumstances or fault.

Likewise if you happen to be a woman and have an abortion, or a doctor and perform one, there's that Ecuadorian jail cell again.

So there are three things (a bit of grass, being in the wrong place at the wrong time and a common medical procedure) that are not illegal on most of the planet and yet he thinks are worth banging people up for. I'll bet if I could be arsed to spend more than a couple of minutes I could find a shitload more.

People who live in glass houses.......

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About values and spin

I remember when Jobs died, there was some quote going around Twitter/Facebook/etc, something along the lines of "Steve cared about other products, other companies care about making money".

At the time, I saw it as nonsense. To start with, it misleadingly conflated a person with companies. Is it really fair to say that other CEOs don't care about their products? But the idea that Apple - or its CEOs - don't care about making money, is laughable, when you see that everything they do is about making as much money as possible, including through the courts to take it off other companies. They even get praised for it - they're not the largest in their markets, rather, it's let's praise Apple for being the most "valuable", or having the most cash, or having the largest profit margins. The media is rammed full of articles publicising this about Apple, and everytime they are mentioned, they have to remind us - even the Register is at it, as the quote from the Iain Thompson article shows.

I love that Apple are simultaneously praised for making lots of money, and for not caring about money because obviously caring about money is a bad thing, unless you're Apple, then it's a good thing.

Sad that a man's death was used by people to evangelise about a company, and criticise other companies - there are people behind those companies too, but I bet most the Apple fans telling us we should care about Jobs don't even know the name of Samsung's CEO, let alone if he died.

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What?

"Silicon Valley went decades without the aggressive litigiousness crippling it the way patent suits are now hobbling the mobile industry. "

Bit of revisionist history there, surely. Granted, things may well be worse today, but that's only because the lawyers have flocked to Silicon Valley after ruining all other American industries.

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Anonymous Coward

Condom

From what I read, he did use a condom but it split and they didn't realise. Must be the first person in the world for that to happen to eh!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Condom

He realised, and kept on humping away despite knowing that she didn't want that. That's what all the fuss is about.

And don't suggest he didn't know, you'd have to be seriously insenstive (in physical terms, that is) not to notice, believe me. Assange's insenstivity seems to be more a mental problem.

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Re: Condom

You seem pretty determined to carry on regardless yourself. Of course it's entirely possible not to know. Nothing quite like an urgent politically inspired bias to numb the sensitivity needed to make simple, everyday observations, or apply common sense.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Condom

>He realised, and kept on humping away despite knowing that she didn't want that. That's what

>all the fuss is about.

Nope. He shagged one of them the night before, conditional on using a condom. The next morning he didn't bother with a condom. According to the charges he forced himself on another one, pinning her down. Sounds a bit rapey to me. Perhaps in Ecuador this is lurve. YMMV.

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Re: Condom

"He realised, and kept on humping away"

Even though the icon of a spurting penis started flashing on his dashboard.

Scoundrel!

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Anonymous Coward

BBC

Prior art isn't prior art because it can't run the new software! So which Samsung phone can run IOS or vice versa?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19425051

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Everybody's an idiot.............

.....if an El Reg commenter disagrees with them.

Do those who deride the interviewed juror know much about the jury selection process in the US?

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Re: Everybody's an idiot.............

You get a letter saying "you're on the jury" you show up, have tea and biscuits, sit through the court case trying not to constantly update twitter, get instructions from the judge on how to proceed and then.... totally ignore the judges instructions and then get your name in as many press publications as possible to try and flog your gear, or did I miss something?

The guys an idiot because he's shown himself to be an idiot by his comments to the press, he had no idea what he was doing yet railroaded the other jurists to his POV which was an incorrect POV, the size of his stupidity will be on how Samsung will get the case over-turned on appeal because the head jurist was a bit of a plank.

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Re: Everybody's an idiot.............

Thank you for demonstrating that you know pathetically little about the jury selection process in the United States.

Please close the door on your way out.

(p.s. Here's a hint, it has to do with summary and discretionary challenges.)

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