back to article Samsung to offer Apple Dock style Start Button in Windows? Really?

We bring good news and bad news for Windows users. Microsoft's latest version of its operating system would have been its best yet - but it has one fatal flaw. The introduction of the Metro Notro widget layer is brutal, obtuse and plays havoc with your routine workflow. In Windows 8, the user is constantly thrown between two …

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Anonymous Coward

Mmmm

Wonder if Rocket Dock will work in Win8? Time to give it a go I guess. Now where did we install that heap o'shit(TM)

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A lockergnome video? Did you watch the one where his dad said "oh I'd get a Windows tablet instead of an iPad" and repeated it several times until asked "if the Windows tablet was much more expensive than an iPad one?" and his dad said "then I'd get an iPad yes" and Chris used that one "win" as an emphasis as to why the iPad is better than a Windows tablet.

Though I do have Win 8 on my laptop and my mother (64 years old) has no problems using it, or Ubuntu (she prefers Ubuntu though).

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Joke

Re: she prefers Ubuntu though

More evidence that old people know nothing about modern technology. :)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: old people know nothing about ...

fashion also. Where did you get that shirt Dad?

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Anonymous Coward

New name for Metro

Microsoft should hire this man to do its PR. First and foremost, he can hardly do a worse job (reminder: Bill Gates and Jerry Seinfeld. 'nough said).

Anyway, I think the new name he came up with is both pithy and descriptive, even more so than the original Metro name. I will be referring to the Win(Pho)8 UI as "All Them Boxes" from now on, and I would ask you do the same.

Working on a helpdesk, imagine how much easier it would be when a confused user rings up and says "Hey, man, I have a problem with all them boxes" rather than "Hey, man, I have a problem with the start menu. Oh. There's no start menu? Than what am I looking at? Metro? No, that's not right. Ah, ok, the "Windows 8 or Windows 8-like modern user interface". So, I have a problem with it"

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Re: New name for Metro

The problem with the name Notro is that I immediately think of "Nostromo" and people running in terror as a terrifying and unknown thing threatens to consume them without mercy.

Yeah, Notro works for Win 8.

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Re: New name for Metro

I was going to do a Partridge and call the Metro interface the Rover100.

But "All them boxes" is what members of my family will inevitably call it when they inevitably get new laptops for christmas and call me to get them to connect to "that there wireless internets".

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Anonymous Coward

sooooo.... are we suppose to take your word for it that they are the same (i.e. copied) or are we going to get some screenshots? Also, to what extended have they copied? (if at all).

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I see this is more a bash windows 8 UI article than it's an article about samsung or mashable. But starting to expect no less. from posts here.

Was so close to having an ok article about mashup most likely just making crap up but you derailed your entire article into a windows 8 bash session. And really that video was flawed on so many levels, which has been stated numerous times. For example the upper right and lower right corners were affected by his parallel install so the user couldn't get to windows 8 menus if he wanted to. Also came out his dad never used windows 7 either, and had no real notion of what the windows key does. Which is fair going from xp to Windows 8 is a much larger shock, vs going from window 7 to 8. But so is driving his 2001 convertible vs a 2012 one. He would get out and try to put the top down himself, and wouldn't be able to figure it out till someone showed him the button for it, which in a lot of new ones is hidden in wierd places.

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Thumb Down

Hopefully it doesn't restore the *actual* start menu. I'd hope the code has been removed so it's not just a case of a simple registry change or something like that.

If MS wanted the start menu to be kept, it would still be in there.

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Anonymous Coward

Classic Shell is the best. I recommend you to try it. It's great even as a general-purpose tweaking utility to replace TweakUI. Lets you use Windows exactly the way you want.

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Eh?

Dell have been adding a Dock to their new ship laptops for over a year and a half - it's hardly copying OSX

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Re: Eh?

Indeed, it would seem the dock was appropriated from Acorn or ARM in any case.

Good outline here http://www.dailytech.com/Analysis+Samsung+Copies+Apples+Launcher+A+Dubious+Claim+at+Best/article25544.htm

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Eh?

It was only a year ahead of NEXTSTEP which had a dock in 1988 (which is what OSX is based on). I doubt anyone in the US would have seen an Acorn Arc since they've not well known outside of the UK.

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Linux

Blast from the past...

This dock concept goes back to the 80s. You remember that company that Steve founded after he left Apple?

This stuff is old enough that any relevant patents should be expired by now.

I used a dock on my Linux desktop in the 90s.

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Happy

Re: Blast from the past...

Docks are hardly restricted to OSX, I'm using one my Linux desktop now. I find they're a lot easier to use with pen input than drop down menus.

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Happy

Re: Eh?

Dock was there in OS/2 Warp, the icons weren't as pretty but the functionality was there..

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Re: Blast from the past...

Acorn's Arthur OS and RISC OS pioneered docks long before Steve was pushed. They even had an ARM powered touch screen tablet computers, with an icon bar at the bottom and icon's scattered across the screen back in 1994 (Google "NewsPad")

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Anonymous Coward

"The abomination is insane"

The Windows Start Button in new Windows 8 machines (as designed by Dalek Caan himself) is still there. Simply insert the recovery disc that comes with your machine and select the option to purge your hard drive of all contamination (just like a Dalek Asylum) and upgradedowngrade to Windows 7.

You've bought Windows 8, wich is a tick for the Microsoft box. And you're using Windows 7, which is a tick for yours.

Simples.

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Anonymous Coward

True

I'm a geek, and have been working with computers since my Spectrum 48k at age 8, but this is pretty much what I was like first time I fired it up. I'm using Win8 RTM on my desktop now, so am now getting used to it, but there shouldn't be a need for a steep learning curve when you install a new operating system!

I really want to like Windows 8, but I might stick with 7...

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Black Helicopters

Could be a devious scheme...

Think about it; Samsung scoring good with a new start menu (which could be a potential customer magnet) and so customers get used to an 'Apple alike' GUI and all the rest of the Win8 flaws. I think a start menu can bring back a lot of functionality, but with Aero and such out of the picture the desktop as a whole will never get the same functionality as Windows 7 had (unless this gap is also filled with this solution, I dunno).

But consider this: say the whole Win8 experience does leave people unsatisfied and looking for something else. What impact would it have to see an almost similar desktop environment on Macs? How much more persuasion would someone need when they learned that, say, MS Office also easily runs on Mac?

This could be a very devious scheme between Samsung and Apple; hitting the "mutual opponent" when its down. Who knows; could be worth a big chunk of 1 bn dollars.

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Re: Could be a devious scheme...

I think conspiracy theories based on Samsung and Apple being in cahoots right now are rather slim. If there are any two organizations less likely to be tag-teaming the rest of the market, it's hard to think of them. BP and Greenpeace, perhaps?

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Pint

Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

You normally write fairly objective articles and like to consider yourself unbiased... Lets do some actual metrics and see how the Windows 8 interface actually is worse than Windows 7. I'll start:

The Win8 Start screen only fits about twenty programs on a typical laptop and upto around fifty on my 1920x1200 monitor. How many programs do you commonly use? Because I'm a power user and for me it still normally comes down to around twenty. So in Win8 I am always only ever two clicks away from the programs that I would normally want. Unlike in Windows 7 where if I want Excel for example, I may well have to navigate from All Programs -> Office -> Excel in the hierachical menu. So advantage Win8.

Not being a chameleon I am incapable of focusing on two distinct areas at once, therefore whether the entire page is a Start screen briefly or only the menu, in neither case do I need to be looking at the rest of the screen. So there's no inherent disadvantage in having the screen switch to a Start Screen rather than pop up a menu.

The Start screen is informational - allowing me to see at a glance the number of emails I have waiting, social networking updates, financial infomation and upcoming calendar events. The hierarchical menu is not. Advantage Windows 8.

I can uninstall programs directly from the Start screen with a right click - no having to go via the Control Panel. Advantage Windows 8.

In Windows 8 I have active corners on each of my monitors, rather than having to traverse two 24" monitors to get to the Start menu as I do in Win 7 (if I choose not to use the keyboard). Advantage Windows 8.

Windows 8 is capable of running all the same Desktop programs in the same way as Windows 7, this no disadvantage to this in Windows 8.

So go on, you're turn. No subjective issues of taste - actual metrics. Why is the "Notro" interface worse than Win7. Remember, the disadvantages must outweigh the advantages... ;)

Pint because it's a pub sort of discussion.

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WTF?

Re: Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

"Unlike in Windows 7 where if I want Excel for example, I may well have to navigate from All Programs -> Office -> Excel in the hierachical menu"

Or of course if you bury it even deeper you may well have to navigate from All Programs -> Office -> Some Made Up Folder -> Another One for Good Measure -> I'm Just Being Silly Now -> Excel

So even more advantage to Windows 8!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Or you just pin to Start Menu, or Pin to Taskbar and stop using retarded examples to make your point).

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

use excel regularly enough it'll just sit in your recent programs. Or I can type ex in the search bar.

Do you know how many applications I have on my desktop? None. How many files? None, unless I'm working on one, that's why I think of it as a workspace as opposed to a place to store stuff. When I see people who have desktops covered in crap I have to wonder as to their ability to organise and find things, I'm also reminded of the desktop with the icons in the shape of a cock in the video "the web site is down"

Windows 8 brings nothing to the table I desire, so I'll be sticking with 7, if MS stick with metro and games companies start to support Macs or Linux, I'll move. Nothing keeps me on Windows except the desktop experience and the applications.

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Re: Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

Well, he *is* using the default installation file tree for his example.

Which is still retarded because "pin to taskbar" gets the win every time. Have cake, am eating.

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Re: Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

"(Or you just pin to Start Menu, or Pin to Taskbar and stop using retarded examples to make your point)."

As said, I use about twenty programs as my frequent ones. That's a lot to have pinned. Some of us don't like to have a tonne of tiny icons and I wouldn't like to see my Start menu with twenty pinned programs.

"use excel regularly enough it'll just sit in your recent programs. Or I can type ex in the search bar"

Not when you use over ten programs "regularly enough" though. Excel keeps appearing and disappearing from my Start menu and I use it pretty often. It's just that I use a lot of other programs often as well. And you can type 'ex' in Windows 8 as well, except that I find it shows up results more quickly in Win8 and also sorts them quite nicely.

You say Windows 8 doesn't bring anything to the table you desire. Well I wasn't talking to you, I was talking to those who say it is disaster as Andrew Orlowski seems to think and asking them to prove it with some actual metrics.

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Re: Okay Andrew - challenge for you.

"use excel regularly enough it'll just sit in your recent programs. Or I can type ex in the search bar."

Which also works with Windows 8 start screen. Maybe one could say that Windows 8 start screen isn't any better, but that doesn't make it worse. Maybe there's nothing obvious you need in Windows 8, but people say that with every new Windows release, and same with other OSs (e.g., there's nothing new I need in Android 4.1 over 4). Most change in OSs is evolutionary rather than revolutionary these days.

Apple brings nothing to the table that I desire.

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ahem

LINK?

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Genuine question - what are people not liking about the Windows 8 start "screen"?

On Windows 7, I hit the Windows key and type the name of the app. On Windows 8, I hit the Windows key and type the name of the app.

If I don't know the name, on Windows 7 I go to all programs, and have to scroll through a long list of small icons and program names (often referred to by manufacturer name, due to the folder hierarchy sceme). On Windows 8 instead I scroll through a long list of icons and names, this time all referring to the application name, and have all of the desktop being used to display this, rather than just a tiny portion.

Perhaps if you're someone still using the Windows 2000/XP start menu, this is a big jump, but that's a criticism against Windows 7 too. What is problematic in the Windows 8 start menu, compared with Windows 7? I'd much rather have the windowed UI over full screen "Metro", but I'm not sure I see the problem with the way applications are launched on Windows 8, which is basically Windows 7 but bigger as far as I can see.

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Facepalm

Brilliant Example

That video was a PERFECT example of so many of my clients. People who use a PC based on muscle memory. Never been trained in their life. Don't know what anything is called, they just click on the pretty icons.

Why was this never tested outside the Microsoft offices? Why didn't they take the OS home and give it to their parents to use? Decades of GUI design thrown down the pan.

I just LOVE the man's punchline... "Are they trying to drive me to Mac?" That just about sums up this stupidity. Apple must be rubbing their hands with glee.

Don't get me wrong, I love change. I think Win7 is a big improvement over XP. Especially for home users. Ditto the Office Ribbon. But this is a little too confusing for the average user. I hope there is a nice, simple, easy to locate tutorial in there somewhere to help the new users round all those changed features.

I also don't see the logic behind some of this. Different teams to be heading in different directions. The Ribbon makes more options more visible to the user so they can find them. Whereas the OS is desperately trying to hide everything. Bit like the silly Web Browsers which have hidden all the menus. I keep getting clients phoning me to ask where the "PRINT BUTTON" has gone. Or "Where is SAVE AS..."

Yep - Nostromo - In space no one can hear you scream... Notro will be plenty of screaming.

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Why do you call it "Apple" dock style? That kind of dock originated in RISC OS.

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"It is most unlikely to wish to incur Apple's wrath again." -- Apple would be insane to try to sue over the dock, given that it was on RISC OS first, and then on the Amiga, before it arrived on NeXT and then Mac OS. Then again, if they sued in Cupertino, where prior art counts for nothing, apparently, who knows what would happen?

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Thankfully it's already dead.

What I've seen of Samsung's S Menu looked god-awful, like some hideously bad imitation of both the much hated OS X Dock and XP's Luna Start Menu. So it's probably for the best they've already confirmed they've no intention of shipping it with any of their PCs.

FWIW after a few days of using Windows 8 RTM, I'm already starting to find the times I have to use the Windows 7 Start Menu incredibly clunky by comparison (and don't even get me started on being stuck on XP at work, which makes me want to smash my monitor on a daily basis)

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Anonymous Coward

@h4rm0ny Posted Wednesday 29th August 2012 14:54 GMT

"The Start screen is informational - allowing me to see at a glance the number of emails I have waiting, social networking updates, financial infomation and upcoming calendar events. The hierarchical menu is not. Advantage Windows 8."

All of these can be done in Windows 7 as well, with free applications. I don't need to see how many emails I have, by the way. I just need to know that I have new emails.

"I can uninstall programs directly from the Start screen with a right click - no having to go via the Control Panel. Advantage Windows 8."

I fail to see how this is a good thing. People not used with computers will uninstall applications by mistake, and then blame Windows anyway. This is change for change sake. Bad.

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Silver badge

Re: @h4rm0ny Posted Wednesday 29th August 2012 14:54 GMT

"All of these can be done in Windows 7 as well, with free applications. I don't need to see how many emails I have, by the way. I just need to know that I have new emails."

The point in this case isn't saying that you can't do the same in Windows 7, the point is that if you can do the same in Windows 8, why is Andrew Orlowski suggesting that it's such a disaster? You can say that Windows 8 doesn't offer you enough advantages to change (though there are plenty of improvements), that's not evidence that it's worse. I want to examine what motivates the author to talk about it in such terrible terms when most of the metrics I've come up with show it is the same or better to get stuff done.

"I fail to see how this is a good thing. People not used with computers will uninstall applications by mistake, and then blame Windows anyway. This is change for change sake. Bad."

Well if someone clicks an option called "Uninstall" and then confirms to the message asking them whether they want to Uninstall, then I think it's reasonable to uninstall something. Most people who are ignorant of how to manage a computer take the approach of not clicking on things that sound dangerous. (That's why they end up ignorant in the first place - no mistakes, no learning).

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Bronze badge

No sound here at the moment, so can't listen to the embedded clip. I seem to remember though, that it seemed rehearsed and that old dude was sometimes wilfully obtuse.

But then you luddites would probably miss that, right?

If things don't change, they'll stay the same.

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WTF?

Apple's dock?

It doesn't look like Apple's dock very much, actually. And it doesn't function like it either. The only common point is it has icons at the bottom of the screen. Big fucking deal, a lot of desktop environments have that, and had it before AppleOS did. If that's a prank from Mashable it's a bad one. They could have made up something that actually resembles Apple's dock.

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Happy

>Genuine question - what are people not liking about the Windows 8 start "screen"?<

It looks like crap and Microsoft are no longer allowing customers to change it easily. Maybe.

I personally don't like 'The Boxes UI', I prefer shading and faux 3D and start buttons.

If I didn't want choice I'd buy an Apple... Oops.

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Anonymous Coward

I think this summed up a few of my main issues with Win8 http://www.pcgamesn.com/article/why-i-m-uninstalling-windows-8

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