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back to article Ho ho ho! Apple's Samsung ban bid pushed back to Christmas

US Judge Lucy Koh has postponed any decision to permanently ban sales of Samsung's mobiles until 6 December - just in time for the Christmas rush. The request to remove Sammy's gear from shop shelves came from Apple, which had just trounced its tech rival in their ongoing epic patent lawsuit. The judge said that since both …

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Childcatcher

What I'd like for Christmas....

Well actually I'd like it before then. A ban on Apple vs Samsung news from El Reg until 20th September.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

Is the best mobile phone ever..... And it's not been made yet.

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Anonymous Coward

Just like your wife after 20 years of marriage

She goes on and on and on and on and on and on.....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

You'll be please to know that the Reg has stopped sending large intimidating men and woman around to it's readers houses and workplaces to force them to read articles about Samsung and Apple.

Instead, like many other individuals with a free will you can choose not to read the articles in future.

While this won't allow you to vent your frustration, a similar number of people will care what you think....

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Anonymous Coward

Re: What I'd like for Christmas....

Next month, from Samsung, another new one. After the last best ever one ;)

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Silver badge

More "Pro-Apple" Copy Published by El Reg

Let's get this straight:

The Galaxy Tab 10.1 was found not to infringe any patents and is due to be overturned on 20 Sept (I fail to see how it could be extended given the Jury clearly exhonourated it).

Save for the Galaxy SII (which is coming close to the end of it's retail shelf life) all of the other phones are no longer selling in any meaningful quantities to the 'ban' won't affect Samsung's P&L in any meaningful sense.

A pyric victory for Apple. Given the now-widely-reported-but-not-by-The-Register interview to Bloomber by the Jury Foreman it is almost a 'lay down misere' for a dismissal of verdict.

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Stop

Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

Seems the single head jury member that lead all the others into their decision based HIS decision on a flawed understanding of how prior art works.. There is no way this could stand, given that a) a single jury member influenced all the others.. b) his understaning of Prior art was flawed and inconsistent with the paperwork they were given (but clearly couldn't be arsed to read as they had already decided the outcome on day 1)

Mistrial in 5.4.3.2.1.....

http://www.patentspostgrant.com/lang/en/2012/08/apple-jury-confuses-obviousness-analysis

and here:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20120828225612963

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FAIL

Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

Ah yes, Groklaw, that highly impartial (read: rabidly partisan in Samsung's favour) organ.

Try watching the full interview that the foreman gave Bloomberg ( http://www.bloomberg.com/video/jury-foreman-discusses-apple-samsung-trial-verdict-ikNjTofgRRecKM4cFXZoZA.html ), from which Groklaw cherry pick in an attempt to prove the verdict wrong. It ain't going to happen.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: More "Pro-Apple" Copy Published by El Reg

*exonerated

*so the 'ban'

*pyrrhic

You're welcome.

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Go

Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

Yowch - from the patenspostgrant article:

"After September 16th, defendants will have a choice to continue on to roll the dice at the district court with a jury trial of laypeople, or avail themselves of the new USPTO patentability trials of the AIA. The new trial proceedings of the AIA will be completed within 12-18 months of initiation and will be conducted before the USPTO’s Patent Trial & Appeal Board (PTAB).

Unlike jurors, the decision makers of the PTAB are not laypeople. Rather, PTAB judges are experienced in the application of U.S. patent law and must additionally have an engineering and/or science background. In addition to the established expertise in technology and patent law, unlike the courts, PTAB judges do not accord patents a presumption of validity, nor do they require clear and convincing evidence to invalidate a patent. Indeed, patent claims are accorded a broadest reasonable interpretation at the USPTO, which makes them that much easier to invalidate."

Trans: If Samsung aren't retarded and push for an AIA/PTAB hearing (as is their right as defendant), Apple are fucked six ways from Sunday.

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Gimp

Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

"rabidly partisan"

How fitting a choice of words...

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FAIL

Re: Meh.. Will be overturned LONG before then.

I did. I watched it a couple of times. On that man's logic, Samsung software will not run on Apple hardware, so Samsung can not infringe. Likewise, Apple does not infringe because Apple software can not run on Samsung hardware. Now, you go and watch it yourself, please, from beginning to end. Thanks.

Total fail.

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FAIL

"Xerox PARC raider "

Is El Reg's mission in life to become the fine purveyors of complete bullshit now?

Apple paid Xerox for the privilege.

Read up.

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Anonymous Coward

Alternatively

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/12/15/business/company-news-xerox-sues-apple-computer-over-macintosh-copyright.html

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Stop

Re: Alternatively

Read page 5 of the link he provided. Xerox suing Apple is covered.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Alternatively

Yes, so the article states, Apple stole the idea from Xerox, Xerox sued Apple, Apple paid up, and fanbois ever since have proudly crowed that Apple paid Xerox for the privilege of using it, forgetting to mention that they paid up only after getting caught.

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Anonymous Coward

Sure

Bring on the appeals and counter appeals and let the roadshow/circus continue.

Meantime, keep bringing out new models cheaply and make consumers happy.

On a side note, why doesnt Apple sue the Chinese & other clone makers? Just asking.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sure

IP laws of China work exclusively for the Chinese. Apple already realised that throughout the iPad trademark farce.

Also they're not such a big business, carriers don't sell them.

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Anonymous Coward

Apple already realised that throughout the iPad trademark farce.

The nerve of those Chinese not having the same "dummy corporation purchase" rules as we have here in the irreproachable US.

Worse than the "morning wood" laws in Sweden.

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Silver badge

This is going to drag on for years!

Progress is always built on the shoulders of others. Trying to prevent this through dubious patents is pure protectionism. The entire Japanese motorcycle industry was built on the back of European motorcycle designs, and then improved upon.

BTW I couldn't help notice that a drag down notification bar put in an appearance on the iPhone in IOS4... I wonder where they got that idea from *cough* Android *cough*. Mind the dismount, those high horses are a dangerous thing to ride.

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Thumb Down

Oh yes, the notification bar. One thing that Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far.

When, and if, it is granted I'm sure Apple will have to change theirs enough so it doesn't infringe anymore, or they can license it from Google. That's how the industry works and Apple has to play that game like any other company (remember when Nokia sued Apple and got 600 million?)

How many features - many already granted - did Samsung copy however? More than 80 according to their own documents, and that's not even going into trade dress or design.

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Black Helicopters

"Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far."

That's amazing. Apple seem to be granted patents for every random obvious thing they come up with and there's not a moment's delay, but Google come up with a functional design and put it into use and it takes three years. Rather appropriate that Ghostbusters was on Antique Code Show today, as this quote springs to mind:

"Do you know how much a patent clerk earns?"

Seems to me that Apple do, and they're happy to generously supplement that wage as the need arises.

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Black Helicopters

Paranoia is the right icon

I've heard it all now, not satisfied with claiming the judge and jury had been bought now you're moved on to claiming Apple has bought the patent office. The president himself can't be too far.

Reality however is patents take whatever time they take to get through, some of Apple's have taken much longer than that. But yes, keep coming up with excuses and ignoring the actual issues that got Samsung fingers burnt in this case.

ps: You'll have to explain how showing a notification at the top of the screen and pulling down box with past notification is less obvious than what Apple has patented, but maybe another day. I'm already over the daily dose of hypocrisy allowed by my doctor.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Paranoia is the right icon

Hah, thought you said "payments" take a while to get through. yeah, sometimes they do ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW. And the Germans probably copied features of the Czech Tatra T77 for the Beetle.... or 911 as some like to call the newer versions these days ;)

And why are Porsche, VW and Audi not suing each other for the Cayenne, Touareg and Q7? Something to do with them all being related companies and building all 3 in the same factory in Bratislava ;)

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Re: Paranoia is the right icon

@Nince Circles

You'll have to explain how showing a notification at the top of the screen and pulling down box with past notification is less obvious than what Apple has patented, but maybe another day. I'm already over the daily dose of hypocrisy allowed by my doctor

It is no less obvious than round corners or "look and feel" characteristics that Apple is suing on. Somehow it is OK for Apple but not for google?

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Happy

Why to sue own?

"And why are Porsche, VW and Audi not suing each other for the Cayenne, Touareg and Q7?" That's because Porche is practically owned by Volkswagen (soon to merge to VW as Porche was about to go titsup by trying to buy all shares of VW) and two latter ones belong to the VAG GmbH (Vokswagen-Audi Group). Also Seat and Bugatti are owned by Volkswagen. There might be also some other brands owned by VAG that I can not remember at the moment.

The only thing I have never got was the fact that Ford Galaxy was long time basically the same product with Seat Alhambra and Volkswagen Sahran. All were built in same Spanish factory and on top of the same chasssis. Only body and interior were changed according to the product specs.

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Anonymous Coward

Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

If that is a reference to the BSA Bantam being a flipped version of the DKW, the DKW design was given over as war reparations.

They may have copied features of other DKW designs but I'm not au fait with those.

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Unhappy

Re: Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

No wonder my Bantam fell to bits.

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Thumb Down

" not satisfied with claiming the judge and jury had been bought..."

"now you're moved on to claiming Apple has bought the patent office."

You probably should add Samsung's lawyers to your list for not challenging Foreman Hogan during voir dire.

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Trollface

Re: "Google has applied for a patent in 2009 but not been granted so far."

Y'know what's going to happen - it'll get denied because 'it should be a standard'

Not like rectangles with rounded corners, data tapping, pinch-to-zoom, multi touch, icons, ad nauseum

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Silver badge

Re: Also, the Brits copied a lot of German motorbike designs, like DKW

No wonder my Bantam fell to bits.

There were a couple of bullet holes in the drawings.

The early (1950..1960) Japanese motorcycles did a lot of borrowing from Britbikes, and to a lesser extent German designs. And Suzuki gained quite a bit of technology when Ernst Degner defected from East Germany and went to work for them, bringing a fair pile of two-stroke knowhow with him (the DDR-based MZ factory had, at that time, arguably the best two-stroke engineering in the world, and despite shortcomings in manufacturing had managed to win a significant number of races). Don't know what kind and amount of fuss was raised by the DDR over this, but I doubt they filed lawsuits.

And then there's the Russian Ural motorcycle, based on a pre-war BMW. It's still debated whether Germany actually licensed the design (as part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact), or that a number were smuggled out of Germany and reverse-engineered. Initially the Germans would likely have cared little if the latter was the case, and after initiating their self-destruction declaring war on the Russians a lawsuit over a copied design wouldn't have had any additional impact whatsoever.

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Holmes

It Seemed A Little Too Quick

I remember how phones looked before the iPhone came out, and I remember all the doubts being expressed about a touch-screen phone when the iPhone did come out. It's success was not a foregone conclusion, though with 20-20 hindsight, the success of Apple's MP3 players would have been a hint. There were smart phones from Nokia, and phones did have screens with icons, but they weren't touch screens. Looking at iPhones and Android phones (I have a Galaxy SII), it is obvious to me that Google copied the iPhone look and feel. Which means that Google and/or Samsung did rip off Apple.

I say that while not being an Apple fan, because I have never liked Apple's closed system philosophy since day 1, back before they even had the first Mac. I will never buy an iPad because I am not going to be forced to transfer files through iTunes software, and also because I won't pay outrageous prices for more RAM. I admire the products, but consider them overpriced and too restrictive. So if a competitor makes something almost as good, without the restrictions, I'll buy it.

In the case of the Galaxy SII, in my opinion it is BETTER than an iPhone, in every respect.

So Google did rip off the look and feel, but then Samsung took the idea and ran with it, and has been making the phones better, which is the only way to actually get people to buy them. Nobody wants second best.

What bugs me is this: I have the sneaking suspicion that the courts support whichever side is based in their own country. Apple got ripped off on the iPhone name in China. Now I think Samsung has not gotten a fair hearing in the U.S. I'm not saying I think they should have won, I'm saying the U.S. jury was biased and probably had made up its mind to vote for the home-town hero regardless.

I have a couple of Apple MP3 players. But this lawsuit won't make me want to go out and buy more Apple products, quite the reverse.

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Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

"What bugs me is this: I have the sneaking suspicion that the courts support whichever side is based in their own country."

Didn't South Korea tell Samsung and Apple not to be naughty and fine both of them? Or is my memory a bit addled thanks to a stupid day of work....

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Silver badge

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Nobody wants second best.

I want good enough, and for the right price.

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FAIL

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

"There were smart phones from Nokia, and phones did have screens with icons, but they weren't touch screens"

I'm curious as to which universe you live in?

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Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

I remember how my Palm Tungsten T5 looked before the iPhone came out and I thought the iPhone looked just a little too similar. Sure, the iPhone was optimized to be used with your finger instead of stylus and had multitouch but the form factor was close and the interface was a grid of icons. I chalked up as a natural evolution of technology and didn't cry foul.

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Holmes

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

The universe of people who had a non-smart Nokia phone or a Sony Ericsson phone with a small color screen, which did show icons for various functions, and cursor keys or a little nub to push with your thumb in order to select the icon, before then clicking some OK button or select button to pull up whatever that icon did. You might be thinking, duh, but my first mobile phone only had text, no graphics at all, and was totally menu driven. So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference? Perhaps you were born after text menus had died out.

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Rob
Bronze badge
WTF?

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

I'm glad you said that Alex as I too was wondering what planet this commentard has been residing on for the past few years.

I have a drawer full of Windows/HTC touch screen phones that I was using years before the iPhone/Android lot came out to play.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Whereas the British court told Apple to take a a hike. And apologise publicly.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Yeah, they do, they buy Apple knowingly ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Agree 100% about Samsung et al. making better gear spooking Apple. And with it looking like an international trade war with folks taking sides, with "patents" as the official reason.

And yes, I don't think this is going to encourage anyone to buy Apple gear. After all this, why?

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Facepalm

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Scott Pedigo - "So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference?"

So, my Sony Ericsson P800 (and all the P series) didn't have icons and a touch screen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Ericsson_P800

Nor all my Xda's which I had from the practically unusable original (2003?) to the Xda Exec and Xda mini S, which was released in 2005, nearly 2 years before the iphone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O2_Xda

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone

Did Apple pioneer the pinch function, or did they pinch it?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Nobody wants second best.

I want the best, for a good price. Guess that rules out the Fruity Company on both counts ;)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

Weren't Handspring a little similar too?

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Silver badge

Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

OK, so not a phone, but a smart phone is just a small computer, the HP150 had a touch screen in the early 80s. Many of the features of the iPhone or Android interface are similar to the way that worked, all them years ago.

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Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

I had a Sony_Ericsson_P800 back in the early 2000`s.

It had rounded corners and a touchscreen with a grid of icons. Prior art, or am I missing something?

Apple are so full of shit, I really hope google/samsung throw a spanner in the next Iphone launch by presenting something that gets it removed from sale.

What goes around comes around as the saying goes.

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Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

"Looking at iPhones and Android phones (I have a Galaxy SII), it is obvious to me that Google copied the iPhone look and feel"

You mean apart from having multiple homes screens as well as a launcher, the device theme being predominately black, widgets, facial recognition, different fonts being used, multiple 3rd party launcher/homescreens, etc etc etc

- ie completely different.

I call BS on you owning a Galaxy SII - you are too much of an Apple fanboi...

the Galaxy SII has a glass/metal case, external aerial that you need to hold in a particular way, the same size screen, weighs the same, and has the same operating system

-

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Re: It Seemed A Little Too Quick

"Scott Pedigo - "So I was making the point that Apple didn't invent the idea of using icons (versus a hierarchy of text menus), but they did pioneer the use of touch screens for activating those icons. See the difference?"

2 words for you Scott - Palm Pilot. Palm was using icons on a touch screen a decade before the iphone was even thought of.

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Boffin

Octagonal

After the careful application with a miniature disc cutter hobby tool and some very fine sanding my Samsung is now very much octagonal - does that mean I can keep it please Mr Apples. (I've also been along to the local patent office, so there)

Logo - cos i was wearin me safety goggles wern it.

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