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back to article Nokia's WinPho 8 double date announced

Nokia will unveil Windows 8 phones during its joint event with Microsoft this September, sources stating the bleedin' obvious revealed. The two handsets – codenamed Arrow and Phi – will form part of the firm's Lumia range, with the former joining the mid-range party and the latter succeeding the Lumia 800 and 900 as its flagship …

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Hurrah, the end of Nokia nears. Im getting fed up hearing how that Elop baffoon is ruining the company. "Just get on with it" I scream at the news reports. And it would seem he is. Hurrah!

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Mushroom

I am curious.

Why on earth have you got yourself into such a state that you actually are cheering the possiblility that Nokia might go down the Swanee? What has the company done to you or yours that you feel impelled to log on and excrete that kind of steaming odoriferous rubbish? Just to give one example, my lady and I to not have a single item of Apple kit in the house - do you see me logging on here howling "Apple must die"? Get a life.

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Why would you celebrate the end of a company (which you've hardly shown will happen)? Competition is good. If you (I am presuming) have an iPhone or Android device, then the better Windows Phone devices are the happier you should be as it provides stimulus for the companies that make your device to keep pushing forward.

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Re:" as it provides stimulus for the companies that make your device "

I fear that anyone who posts that kind of garbage is incapable of appreciating your point.

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@h4rm0ny

Because he will have been proven to be RIGHT. On the INTERNET, no less!

I won't deny there's a certain amusement in watching Elop suffer for canning Symbian and Meego but Nokia were a really cool phone maker once upon a time and I do have fond memories of using my 9300, N95 and other exotic and inspired phone ideas. Black slabs will not save Nokia but they might make a rather stylish tombstone. =/

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Re: as it provides stimulus for the companies that make your device "

I prefer to assume that the person I am talking with is a reasonable and intelligent person.

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Re: @h4rm0ny

It must be said once more: Symbian was dying before Elop killed it. The market share was on a rout. Releasing 'flagship' devices like the N96 and N97 in the state they were in amounted to self-defilement. Want to know who wants Nokia to die? People who bought those crocks of shit.

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Re: @h4rm0ny

It's interesting - if and when Nokia does get bought out/go into administration, it will essentially have the same skilled engineers and designers as before, but, new management. Maybe the problem is the existing management, or an excess of same, or so.

It would be interesting to see what Nokia's brightest could achieve, were there a clearout of the stables, and some real business-heads (as are many company doctors brought in by administrators) take the reins.

I wouldn't want Microsoft to be the new owner as they simply wouldn't be as profit- and competition-oriented as someone who really is determined to make money.

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Anonymous Coward

So you want competition to Apple and Google to die? how is that good for consumers?

Operators want a third option to keep prices down.

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Re: I am curious.

About the only reasons I can think of are that he is naked shorting the stock or has unresolved issues perhaps caused by an old phone that wasn't "cool" enough.

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Windows

Re: I am curious.

"What has the company done to you or yours that you feel impelled to log on and excrete that kind of steaming odoriferous rubbish?"

Made me redundant 5 years, wrecked my life, and that of my family, with no prospect of another job, other than cleaning work. Finland is drowning in newly-redundant, highly qualified (BSc/MSc/PhD) younger engineers. I'm 56, not a graduate, but was a Senior Specialist at NSN.

There. Fixed it for you.

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Windows

Re: @h4rm0ny - who buys Nokia?

Huawei is my bet, not Microsoft. Let's wait and see, shall we? It's only a matter of months before this stuck pig falls over. No way it can recover now. It's too mortally wounded.

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Re: @h4rm0ny

Well having worked on Symbian since 99 I could have told you not to buy an N97. No GPU, poor specs all over, first touch UI, resitive touch screen, cheap plastic body, this device and all the S60 5th edition range was doomed from the start. My guess at the time was that Nokia did not want to give Symbian touch good hardware knowing the software was rubish anyway. Anyone with a bit of a clue never bought into 5th editon. Trouble is it precisely the time where mass market was going into smartphone and they sold lots of them because people had no clue and thought Nokia is a safe buy. Most will never forgive Nokia for this. I as an 'insider' waited until they came up with something half descent to replace my E90 and ended up with an E7. Just wished it came with the specs of the 701 and 808. Other than that it is a quite a good smartphone. Too late though they switch to WP. 701 and 808 are just great though.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: I am curious.

"Why on earth have you got yourself into such a state that you actually are cheering the possiblility that Nokia might go down the Swanee? What has the company done to you or yours that you feel impelled to log on and excrete that kind of steaming odoriferous rubbish?"

How about that they teamed with Microsoft? Why should we expect Nokia to succeed when WP has been an utter failure from the start? The best thing that could happen to Nokia is bankruptcy so that Elop and the Microsoft deal are gone. WP brings no competition to to the market except for last place.

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Anonymous Coward

Anonymous Coward 101

"It must be said once more: Symbian was dying before Elop killed it."

It was? 2009 Nokia sold 100 million smartphones (mostly Symbian.) 2010 Nokia sold over 134 million smartphones (once again mostly Symbian.) Look at how many phones Apple sold in 2010; 40 million. If Nokia say a 34% which was a 34 million increase, Apple hardly gained overall. While Apple say huge market share gains, 34% that Nokia saw was far from a dying as you claim. There are many companies that see single digit growth in their sectors and they survive. Seeing 34% is highly respectable and shows huge growth.

How is Nokia doing with the Elop plan called WP? They are seeing their market share shrink and hardly any growth. They also had 50% of the German market, not they are around 3% in about 18 months.

I will say it again, Symbian was still growing, WP is still dying.

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Windows

Tombstone? Good one!

In Tampere, encased in a hole in a rock outside the factory is a 'Spock' - the first Communicator. When they close that site, I wonder if they'll take it away, or simply leave it as a monument to Elop?

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Meh

Re: @h4rm0ny

The black slabs -> tombstones analogy is cute, except the Lumia 900s tend tend to come in all sorts of colours ( but not Zune brown yet ).

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to all those that are asking about my reasons

i think you have misread my post. im happy beacuse its almost over. Nokia are dead, they just dont know it yet. The sooner the pain stops, and the body is buried, the better.

and if anyone does read this, yes, ive replied to posts over a week old on a topical news website. i realise the chances of anyone of the above accusers reading it are nil.

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Anonymous Coward

head scratching...

I assume the thinking is that customers will study the details of all these new devices for a week before the apple announcement. Then when apple unvails another marginal upgrade over the iphone4, punters will all want the other devices.

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FAIL

Just two?

What a joke. They need a range of at least five or six, with a Communicator-esque form factor amongst them.

Not just an iPhone-alike and a cheap iPhone-alike.

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JDX
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Re: Just two?

Why? I'd appreciate the simplicity since the OS is the same.

Note other manufacturers can also create WP8 phones so it's not the same as saying there will only be 2 WP8 handsets available.

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fch

Re: Just two?

you mean a good dirty dozen like they used to have in their S60/Symbian days ? One "flagship" and some 25 satellites of odd colors, shapes and sizes ? And possibly fries with it ?

I'm not so sure that Nokia did itself a favor with that "variety" (rather, varieté).

Sometimes, less is more. Even if they're not going all the way to Fruitycorp-style product line clarity. The "dozens and dozens" Nokia still has in their S40 lines.

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Re: Just two?

Other companies than Nokia are producing Windows Phone 8 devices. There's probably going to be quite a range of hardware to choose from.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Just two?

They're nothing like iPhones. No clicky home button, no switch for ring/vibrate. The OS is totally different and original.

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Re: Just two?

> Note other manufacturers can also create WP8 phones

They _can_, but will they actually do so in the face of MS throwing money and advertising at Nokia and expecting the others to pay MS for the privilege ?

Others did make WP7 phones but when Nokia sold a million or two the market share did not rise, it just took sales from the others.

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Re: Just two?

"They _can_, but will they actually do so in the face of MS throwing money and advertising at Nokia and expecting the others to pay MS for the privilege ?"

Yes. HTC have licenced Windows Phone 8 and should be releasing a couple of WP8 devices in October or November (release date not confirmed). Other manufacturers will be releasing them also, I have no doubt of it.

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Mushroom

Re: Just two?

And WP also doesnt have 300 known security vulnerabilities like IOS...

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Gimp

For the love of god

Let one have a Xenon Camera at least comparable to the N8's

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Mushroom

Re: For the love of god

Nokia have stated a Pure View WP8 phone is coming. 40MP Camera....

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Meh

Reactions up on YouTube already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1sOuj3UOcs

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Anonymous Coward

Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?

Every Windows Mobile is a broken promise. This will be no better. Consumers have woken up thankfully, and this is destined to flop like all other Microsoft mobile offerings.

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Re: "Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?" Thank you old chap............

.......don't call us, we'll call you.

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Joke

Re: "Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?" Thank you old chap............

".......don't call us, we'll call you."

On a WP8 device.

(or would that just be mean) ;)

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Re: "On a WP8 device."

It would be tempting, hmm?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Every Windows Mobile is a broken promise.

Aww, that's beautiful man...

Every iPhone is a tender kiss! Every Android is a futuristic handjob! All blackberrys suck...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?

Microsoft's mobile offerings were quite successful thanks. They had about a third or more of the market until the iPhone effect kicked in.

The product is fine, it just needs more development and I'm sure WP8 will be a turning point. Firstly apps from Windows proper will be easily ported and secondly this will be the first chance for Nokia to develop a proper handset from scratch and make it themselves. The Lumia's were derived from existing handsets and made by a contractor.

Do you want less competition in the market? have you even used WP7.5? it is an extremely efficient OS for communication and social media. It's not a geek toy like Android and it's a lot more modern than iOS.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?

Awwww bless. You actually believe that...

Only metro apps will port easilly, and it's yet to be seen is anyone is actually stupid enough to want to use metro on the desktop.

I know onlt 4 or 5 people that have ever had Windows Phone/Windows Mobile/WindowsCE or whatever it's called this week, and 100% of them say it sucks beyond belief, barely usable, and all the while, all the others are WAY out in the distance now, laughing at Microsoft's feeble attempts at pretending they are relevant.

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Mushroom

Re: Meh - havn't they had too many chances already?

Microsoft at one point had over 50% of the smartphone market. That's hardly a flop...

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Anonymous Coward

@AC Friday 24th August 2012 15:56 GMT

They had 1/3 of the market in the US ONLY! Shall we look at the world, they had 14% 2006. If WP is so great, why is WM still outselling it?

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Happy

WP7 not upgradeable?

Possibly not, but that might beat the way Apple do it: give more headline features so that the upgraded iPhone will run like a dog afterwards and people have to downgrade. :)

As a WP7 user I would love the upgrade, but I'm not too worried. As long as any changes they make don't spoil the phone, I'm happy with any upgrade I get now. And at least we get the new UI as a minimum.

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Re: WP7 not upgradeable?

I have the Lumia 710. I don't feel particularly bothered by the lack of upgrade. I bought my device SIM-free for £160 and it will still do all the same things after Win8 is released as it does now. The loudest people on how unfair it is not to have an upgrade on these forums have typically been those who are anti-MS in the first place.

I don't need anyone to be angry on my behalf, thanks. I grew up in a time when phones weren't upgradeable and I don't see it as some human right that after having bought it, someone should come along for free and magically grant it the hardware it needs to run a newer OS that was released long after it was designed. I get security updates, etc. Sure, it's nice with other phones if you can install a future OS on it (and that this doesn't cause your legacy hardware to run like a dog, which often seems to be the case), but I knew what I was buying and I still like it.

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Anonymous Coward

Win 8 Upgrade Shafting?

I really don't think you can call the lack of a WP8 upgrade on older handsets a shafting. 8 makes far to many changes from 7 for it to work right, running next years OS on last years hardware spec has never been a winning idea - just look how many Androids have failed to adequately run ICS and the old iPhone models which have to be feature limited and still run like dogs.

Phones are appliances, designed to run the OS of *now" not to be upgradeable for infinite years, OS builds have to be balanced just right to offer maximum features without getting bogged down. I reckon WP7 users should be happy that Microsoft are backporting things to give them an upgrade rather than either offering an OS upgrade their handset wouldn't run properly or nothing at all.

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Re: Win 8 Upgrade Shafting?

It is an interesting point. So few people even 'upgrade' by downloading applications that it is mute as to whether any beyond 'geeks' give a monkeys whether they get win 7 or win 8. For me a phone is a phone, the iPhone is not appealing because I don't like the form factor, size, style or lack of keys. Unfortunately this old curmudgeon is somewhat at odds with what the manufacturers want to make (a touch screen is much cheaper with less parts, less manufacturing problems and more reliability).

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Coat

What's in a Name

I misread one of the codenames - thought one of the handsets was called Phil, which in my opinion is a splendid name for a phone to take on the world.

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FAIL

Re: MS shills

And most of the other handset makers they haven't killed they extort $5 per handset from - a fact not one of the obvious microsoft apologists round here ever, ever even mention, never mind try to justify.

The simple truth is the public have rejected microsoft phones, and will continue to do so, because unlike on the desktop they have a choice. Those in the business know how evil microsoft are, so won't touch their excrement because they genuinely want them to FOAD. And don't underestimate the generations of people in that position. Joe public doesn't care about that because he doesn't know about it - he's rejected them simply because they are shit. Carriers welcome microsoft, with their lovely skype revenue destroyer, like a muslim welcomes a bacon butty. Stores have zero incentive to flog them over any of the popular ones because "people want what other people have".

I weep for Nokia, but PMSL at microsofts continual failure ever since they jumped on the mobile bandwaggon 10 years too late.

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Paris Hilton

Re: MS shills

... as opposed to the Android and iPhone shills who bark on about "the failure of WinPhone" blah, blah, blah.

True, Windows Mobile never really got off the ground. And true, MS is a late entry into the field, while Android and Apple have much more prevalence. But I can't help wonder if these people who keep on banging on about the so-called "public rejection" of the WinPhone even know what a WinPhone looks like. I commute via bus, and while I'll admit that it's not nearly as many as the number of iPhones/'droids I see, I still see plenty of WP7s out there.

I develop for the WP7. I chose this platform not because of any loyalty to Microsoft, but because I already knew the framework (XNA) and there was a chance to win a competition. I stuck with it because I can't justify the money/time required to break into the iOS market, and a brief foray into Android development proved too horrifying for words. On top of this, being a younger market, I think that WinPhone is a great place for indie developers like myself - and I'm not the only one (http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/Dare+Indie+Fest/feature.asp?c=44183)

The truth is that Microsoft have woken up to the mobile platform, much like they did to the console market. And now they've decided they want in, it will be the same story as the Xbox - throw enough money at it and it will stick. Sure, there will be problems along the way, but WinPhone isn't going away, regardless of the bleating of those who think it has "failed".

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Anonymous Coward

Re: MS shills

Nokia aren't the only WP OEM, there's HTC and Samsung. It's just Nokia are the flagship OEM.

Samsung and HTC can use WP as a way of keeping Google until control, without such competition they would be less competitive and more monopolistic.

Samsung are funding and working on alternatives to Android.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: MS shills

If you don't want to pay for patents than change your product. Simples.

I've never understood why phones keep using VFAT or FAT32 style filesystems. By choosing to do so they set themselves up to be sued.

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Facepalm

Re: MS shills

@RyokuMas I sincerely thank you for making point in my first sentence for me.

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