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back to article Woz: Cloud computing trend is 'horrendous'

The risks of cloud computing will be "horrendous", Steve Wozniak said last night, in a statement that will set eyeballs rolling at Apple - the company he co-founded with Steve Jobs. The bearded designer of the Apple II is prone to off-message statements, but the latest one takes a dig at an area Apple has just invested a lot of …

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Sing it, Woz! :-)

I agree, 100% ... Trouble is that the kids in charge don't want to listen to us old farts who have already been there & done that. All they see is short-term dollars, not long-term vision.

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Meh

A sane

A sane voice in a sea of insanity.

There have already been serious data crashes in the cloud.

If you own it keep it close to you, I mean would you buy an Aston Martin garage it in a lock up shed on an estate 200 miles away in the Gorbals and leave the keys to it on the bar in a jam jar in the Dog and Fukket?

The guy can see the future problems.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sing it, Woz! :-)

The iCloud is about free backup for your iDevices and not so much about where companies store important data.

Wozniak is right however and surprisingly his name 'Wozniak' is also in the iPad spell checker when typing in Wozniak. No I said Woz, type in Woz and it gives Wozniak.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A sane

You think?

Gmail, Hotmail, Flickr, online VMs for testing the list goes on. People are already using online services for many things.

Woz is old school, he's an electronics engineer and hardware hacker. Why does his opinion count in the world of software and online communications?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A sane @ AC 20:17

You remind me of the story of the old bull and the young bull, both looking down from a hill at a herd of 20 cows.

Young bull, 'let's run down the hill and sh*g a cow!'

Old bull, 'let's walk and have them all!'

There's a lot to be said about intelligence and experience, something that you appear to have none of.

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Re: Sing it, Woz! :-)

"Wozniak is right however and surprisingly his name 'Wozniak' is also in the iPad spell checker when typing in Wozniak. No I said Woz, type in Woz and it gives Wozniak."

This is offf topic a bit but you should see what comes up when you type Zuckerberg into Firefox or Thunderbird if you're using the EN-GB dictionary.

Here's a hint, it begins with 'C' and ends in 'sucker'...

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Happy

it begins with 'C' and ends in 'sucker'...

Hahahaha it's true I tell thee!

These firefox boys think of everything! You'd never get that in MS word unless some programmer hid it in hex amongst a load of C code!

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Re: it begins with 'C' and ends in 'sucker'...

Not true. Back when there was a Word 2.0, you got 'whores' if you mis-spelt 'whereas'...

Also, I used to get 'God Damn' for Goodman....

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Re: Sing it, Woz! :-)

I'm older then you and I KNOW that the web is the safest place to put my data and funnel my special functions. You just need to use the right tools.

DO you doubt that the probability of the internet being functional is higher then the probability that you can get to your data and/or special program stored and or running any way, any where in the world or off it?

Our program (www.worlddatatrust.com) harnessed this more then a decade ago and we have been using it ever since.

Unfortunately, like the Woz, we couldn't market a snowcone to an Arab. Perhaps some good marketeer/thief will come along and Innovate us (you need this done every five years once you hit fifty).

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@attoman (was: Re: Sing it, Woz! :-))

"I'm older then you"

Assumes facts not in evidence.

"and I KNOW that the web is the safest place to put my data and funnel my special functions."

How do you figure? I honestly don't understand this mind-set.

"You just need to use the right tools."

I think you are one of the tools ... and are being used by marketards.

"DO you doubt that the probability of the internet being functional is higher then the probability that you can get to your data and/or special program stored and or running any way, any where in the world or off it?"

Yes. I can dial into my personal systems, even if local access to TehIntraWebTubes[tm] isn't available at the moment. POTS is still more available than TheWWW, regardless of what the marketards would have you believe.

::paragraph elided::

Nice advert, spammer.

"Unfortunately, like the Woz, we couldn't market a snowcone to an Arab.

My brother sells refrigeration equipment in Fairbanks, Alaska. I think Woz & Steve did OK, over the long haul. You sound bitter. Probably because you are thinking short-term profits, and not long-term vision. See my original post. And please note that I don't actually use any Apple products ... although my Wife uses an aging original iMac for video processing.

"Perhaps some good marketeer/thief will come along and Innovate us (you need this done every five years once you hit fifty)."

OK, if you say so. Gut feeling is you have a crap product. Like the rest of the cloud shit. No, based on your commentardary, I'm not going to investigate your product ... so I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

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Re: A sane

Cloud computing is just really starting out. Woz just sees that clouds are a tempting target for every hacker who

wants to prove himself. Woz was the creator, Jobs was the accountant. If Woz lead Apple instead of Jobs, I would bet that Apple would be producing far more creative products than they do now. They would not have to rely upon courts to maintain their market share. Lastly, I would respect Apple instead despising it like I do now!

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FAIL

Re: A sane

Fail - Did Mummy never teach you to respect your elders...

Fact is Woz is only echoing was many IT professionals know, but don't have the channels to voice their concerns!

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WTF?

Re: Sing it, Woz! :-)

Gonna party... umm download software likes its 1999...

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@A.C. - - Re: A sane

"Woz is old school, he's an electronics engineer and hardware hacker. Why does his opinion count in the world of software and online communications?"

1. If it weren't for the electronics engineers, the Wozs of the world and hardware people, then you software types wouldn't even have an internet and comms systems to cream over. It's about time you dreamy service-orientated software types realised that The Cloud, at its core, isn't VIRTUAL: the world STILL consists of ATOMS, ELECTRONS etc. which make up things, that when configured by hardware engineers, go into making up the systems which we hardware types graciously let you program.

2 There is a limit to how far APIs etc. go down in any system. Below that, it's the engineers' world; and below that again it's the world of the material scientist, and still further down again you'll find the world of the physicist and chemist. Down here, it's these people who 'program' and design--it's the world where nature is tamed and made to work for us. And it's a world that you'll never know or have any control over. You API-jerkers and high-level language programmers sit on top of a vast industrial infrastructure with a long history and damn well don't forget it! What's more, that infrastructure goes back some hundreds of years to the very beginnings of modern engineering and technology some 200 years ago--right back to Volta, Faraday etc.; even the long line of chemists stretching right back to Kekulé, Lavoisier and earlier contributed to the process, they ultimately laid down many of the underpinning technologies for the IC and microprocessor.

3. To many of us, we've seen this model trotted out before, The Cloud is the latest incarnation of the software (service) rental model (remember Microsoft's first attempt?). Buy software as a once-off and there's only one fee, rent The Cloud and it's ongoing income. We old-timers know the ploy and we're already a wake-up.

4. Presumably you're an A.C. because you wouldn't be silly enough to affix your own name to that comment.

P.S.: I'm not an Apple user, never have been. It's just that here Woz's views make much sense (as they would to anyone who examines The Cloud objectively.)

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A sane

Wanna hear what inexperience sounds like?

"Re: A sane

You think?

Gmail, Hotmail, Flickr, online VMs for testing the list goes on. People are already using online services for many things.

Woz is old school, he's an electronics engineer and hardware hacker. Why does his opinion count in the world of software and online communications?"

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@Graham Wilson (was: Re: @A.C. - - A sane)

200 years ago? Try flint knapping, 70,000+ years ago or more ... We've been building on basics since we learned to think ...

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A sane AC 6/8 20:17

Hey, it's the summer holidays and the kids are online. Crass, naive and arrogant.

Back to the article, how can the Woz be "off-message" as he is no longer associated with Apple? He has the strength of character to voice his opinions nonetheless unlike all the mindless corporate drones pandering to their own ill-conceived self-interests.

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Re: @A.C. - - A sane

I'm a C++ programmer and I upvoted your comment.

What you write is true.

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@jake -- Re: @Graham Wilson (was: @A.C. - - A sane)

Right, I don't disagree. I had to start somewhere and it's often, if not generally, agreed that chemistry was the first engineering discipline to fully become founded on scientific principles. This occurred around 1800; by then alchemy wasn't taken seriously by chemists of the day (as at this point the fundamentals of what was to become Dalton's Scientific Method were essentially understood and in place, thus the cornerstone of their work).

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Happy

@Vanir -- Re: @A.C. - - A sane

Thanks, sorry about my comment about programmers (I've done programming too). It's just that today so many lose sight of how very integrated all the different technologies are.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Sing it, Woz! @attoman

Let's take you apart than, shall we?

worlddatatrust.com:

WHOIS says you're in the US, California

dig mx says your email providers infinology.net lives in the US, but in Texas

So that means data crosses federal lines - the FBI can play

You're a US company, so the CIA can play as soon as you deal with anything foreign

There is no way whatsoever that your setup can handle any information with a degree of security and integrity if you're US based. So if you "KNOW" ol' Woz to be wrong it suggests you may need to resume taking your meds..

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Vic
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Re: Sing it, Woz! @attoman

> spamatatrust.com

Please don't keep repeating his domain. He's a spammer.

Vic.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: A sane

I don't think they even need the keys, to be fair. You know, ex-engineering region, lots of time on their hands ;)

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Happy

Trivia

"you should see what comes up when you type Zuckerberg into Firefox or Thunderbird if you're using the EN-GB dictionary."

So it does. I always thought that was a Yank phrase.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @A.C. - - A sane @ Graham Wilson

You go on a bit don't you!

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @A.C. - - A sane

Agree except you don't buy software, you're granted a licence to use it...

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Boffin

Re: A sane

"Gmail, Hotmail, Flickr, online VMs for testing the list goes on. People are already using online services for many things.

Woz is old school, he's an electronics engineer and hardware hacker. Why does his opinion count in the world of software and online communications?"

Wait till someone hacks into a bank email account outsourced into Gmail. Given the stuff stored in bank employee e-mails, it's bound to be a blast!

Security in the cloud (or insecurity) is something that should be taken into account, but in a lot of cases, isn't. And it isn't like data loss or hacks haven't happened:

- MobileMe wiping iDevices clean if you cancelled your MobileMe trial but failed to unconfigure MobileMe on the iDevice.

- the Danger SideKick getting mass amnesia due to Oracle RAC replication corruption.

- The Amazon/iDevice hack mentioned in the same article.

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Re: Sing it, Woz! @attoman

Ah! Someone is alive in the underworld.

Now what is it you would most desire sir? Good old triple DES encoding? With a User private key known only to your Klan? Or perhaps you are truly crazy like our friend Woz and want something so humongous that even the NSA won't touch it without an Executive Order and a Drone targeting their ass.

No problem! Everything leaves and moves encrypted.

Let us now examine the alternative mentioned fantabulous hard storage and multiprocessor service with underground bomb proof power generation and protection. If the CIA, or NSA wants in they go in and get the data and as an added bonus you, your dog and your grand kid are all very dead.

Oh that's right you are down under where the bogieman never comes, the CIA or NSA or killer drones never operate. Right...

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Happy

I hate Apple, but love the Woz.

He looks at tech objectively and exclaims the good and bad regardless of vendor.

Shine on you crazy diamond.

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Anonymous Coward

The key is...

... in the last sentence of the report:

"the beardy engineer". Not a marketing man.

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And yet...

...all I have to do is say something negative about Steam, and it brings out massive downvoting.

Same shit, different stink.

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Re: And yet...

Steam isn't quite the same thing. It has cloudy features now but it's not in the cloud. Your data resides on your computer, not in some fluffy abstraction out on the edge of the internet.

Of course it has a fairly comprehensive DRM scheme, but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

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Re: And yet...

Same net result: A crapload of stuff you paid for being unavailable should someone else's machine decide to throw a wobbler. Or should you forget the password you used six years ago with an email address that's no longer valid, or any other number of problems that wouldn't happen if only you didn't depend on some third party for everything to work.

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Re: And yet...

..all I have to do is say something negative about Steam, and it brings out massive downvoting.

That's easy.

Steam = vapour <> Cloud

Anything else I can help you with? :)

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Joke

Says something negative about Steam...

Why the hell did they name the thing after an East 17 song? What the heck is that all about? I assume the Gabe dude is a fan of theirs!

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Data ownership..

I agree with Woz.

A vinyl record means more to me than an mp3 on my HDD, yet I can still see its container.

True vapourware with added water & and we know how apple treat water damage..

Said it before but I think this is their Achilles heel in development.

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There are some uses for the "cloud"...

...if you define "cloud" as virtualised elastic computing. Very useful for people running online services who need to be able to dial things up to meet a burst in demand, or dial everything back down again to stay economical.

Unfortunately, today's "cloud" marketing is all about stuffing everything back inside a glass house and having everyone on a fat terminal rather than a personal computer. Thanks, but no thanks. This is why.

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Thumb Up

Re: "There are some uses for the "cloud"..." Within the type of limits you have........

.........referred to I agree. Within the private/domestic sphere I use it for syncing and (under certain circumstance) file transfers between locations. Actual main storage? Not a bleeding chance. They'll have to wrest my external hd/disc burner from my cold dead hands etc. etc.

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but but

With Apple you sign away your rights to everything anyway. You're not permitted to use the phone any way you want. You can't root your phone and use the hardware with any software you choose.

What's happened to Woz?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: but but

'Not permitted to use the phone in any way you want?'

I don't know what you want to do with yours, I shudder to think, but I use mine to make phone calls.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: but but

"With Apple you sign away your rights to everything anyway. You're not permitted to use the phone any way you want. You can't root your phone and use the hardware with any software you choose."

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people don't know or care. Let them be burned.

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Anonymous Coward

I don't particularly like clouds, but short of all of us becoming admins of our own servers how else can we get our data across all the devices we use today? USB sticks? How do we share it? E-mail attachments and their versioning nightmares?

Even running a simple mail server these days means keeping up to date with spam, security, service downtime, etc. Even after that most times the server is not under your direct control - nor is it on your Internet connection - so it that still can be monitored, blocked, physically accessed...

I guess it's the cost of de-centralizing our information into multiple machines and something we'll have to learn to live with.

I think Woz would do a better job focusing his energy and creativity on how we do this better, rather than trying to combat it.

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"how else can we get our data across all the devices we use today"

If you want your data to remain secure with great difficulty, the clouds I see don't fix that, they just say hey don't worry about it (rather like we are not supposed to care about the privacy of social media).

If only that was all the 'cloud' is about. I see it being used to lock in, extract more money from, and control customers under a pretence of it offering something useful. The cloud doesn't belong to you and if you come to depend on it (and you will when it is the only option offered) they have you by the short and curlies.

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Linux

Short of becoming admins on our own servers?

Become an admin on your own server. :)

It isn't as hard as it used to be. And if companies like Apple were spending their energies on software to run your own server, then it'd be easier than wiping your arse.

But companies like Apple don't want to give YOU control of your own data. There's no profit in it.

THEY want to control the data, so they can mine it, analyse it and decide what you want for breakfast next week.

That's the trouble with the cloud - all the advantages seem to be on the service provider's end.

If you're an end user, then your cloudy services can just evaporate with no recourse.

Not so bad if it's just a personal webpage you put on geocities in 1999, but if it was an email service that disappeared you'd be fairly pissed off. Especially if you're a business.

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Anonymous Coward

I don't particularly like clouds, but short of all of us becoming admins of our own servers how else can we get our data across all the devices we use today?

By calling them SERVERs and SERVICES we may actually return to a degree of sanity and people who actually have a clue getting involved in the debate (like Woz). The whole "cloud" crap irritates me to an enormous degree because it's one of those words that's so vague anyone can pretend to be an expert and say things that would get laughed at if the term was more precisely defined. You get Veeps and even politicians deciding they want to go "Cloud" because it's the latest buzzword, not because there is any rationale behind it. Classic marketing waffle.

I'm with Woz here, but from another angle - cloud services are the tail end of a relentless war on privacy rights waged by US companies like Google and Facebook whose entire business model is tied to breaking into people's lives. Given the ridiculously weak fines they get handed in Europe for quite simply ignoring privacy laws actually exist (as far as I can see in Europe v Facebook with active collaboration from the Irish Data Protection Commissioner) I cannot see this change soon - until it goes very badly wrong.

I'll get off my soapbox now, but the Apple fail was only a tiny example in this context.

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Coffee/keyboard

it'd be easier than wiping your arse.

That made me lol as I can just imagine a new marketing slogan - "Linux Servers - Easier than wiping your arse" and a little picture of that penguin dude holding a bog-roll!

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Re: Short of becoming admins on our own servers?

"Become an admin on your own server. "

Low-powered, dual core atom at home,big drives, always on - SSH/fish from anywhere, used for various other functions and transcoding 1080p video when not otherwise needed - Linux of course.

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Vic
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> how else can we get our data across all the devices we use today? USB sticks?

rsync.

Vic.

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Anonymous Coward

If your asking such fundamental questions, maybe you should pack away all of your kit and get your pad/pen/envelopes out.

Then you have the nerve to slate an experienced engineer.

Does anyone listen to your opinions?

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