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back to article Judge rejects Apple's calls for Samsung censure

Apple's demand that Samsung be censured for releasing evidence that had been struck out of the two companies' patent battle has been rejected by the presiding judge. Apple had asked Judge Lucy Koh to sanction the lawyers involved in Samsung's decision to send evidence that had been filed too late for the trial proceedings to …

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Of course...

"I absolutely believe it's had an impact on our sales," he said.

Yes, competition has a tendency to have such an effect...

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Pint

Re: Of course...

Yup. These guys should be laughed out of town.

It just shows how much protection some companies expect from the state nowadays. The free market? We were for it before we were against it.

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Meh

Re: Of course...

The Judge is just showing impartiality, while she makes a quick call on her....

iPhone.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Of course...

There's fair competition and then there's producing clones.

Nobody wants one market leader followed by a load of "me too" products that look similar.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Of course...

They expect protection just like you would if you worked hard on a product only for a competitor to produce an almost identical looking product reducing your sales.

You're obviously not in business, my brother is and has had some of his designs copied by the larger companies he is trying to compete with.

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FAIL

Re: Of course...

If Apple cant compete in a world where similar LOOKING devices are sold, then they clearly are not producing good devices..

Clothes are a good analogy, when a top designer produces a collection, the high street copies it...yet people still buy expensive clothes because they are high quality, yet cheap imitations are often commonly found, these look similar but are not fakes pretending to be designer.

The same goes for phones, Samsung released phones in a similar STYLE to Apple, but the devices are different hardware and software, so HOW are they copying? also their phones look Evolutionary from the older phones i've seen, not a direct rip off of apple. What apple has patented should NEVER have been allowed to be patented, how can you patent such a basic feature...

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Re: Of course...

"They expect protection just like you would if you worked hard on a product only for a competitor to produce an almost identical looking product reducing your sales."

The phones were not at all identical apart from the basic rectangular shape which is dictated by using a rectangular screen, which touch screen phones and PDA's had been using for at least a decade before Apple claim they invented that look.

Its not like someone is claiming no one else can use the laptop form factor, they just get on with the job of competing, which Apple should be doing instead of spending all this money to keep competitor's stock off the shelves.

I mean why not sue every Android manufacturer then? In terms of form factor the differences between all smartphones are mere nuances around a rectangular screen.

Apple are only going after Samsung because they have been successful.

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Re: Of course...

This doesn't seem to be the case in the world of cameras, MPVs, aeroplanes, televisions and many other products. I suspect a lot of people like the idea of several similar products to choose from. Having a choice of one does rather smack of a Stalinist ideology and rather flies in the face of the idea that competition is a good thing

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Re: Of course...

"There's fair competition and then there's producing clones."

How is a Samsung a clone - I can hold it any way I want and it still maintains reception :-)

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Re: Of course...

"Its not like someone is claiming no one else can use the laptop form factor..."

I wish that were true :(

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/apple-patents-the-macbook-airs-wedge-design-bad-news-for-ultrabook-makers/

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Re: Of course...

Having a choice of one does rather smack of a Stalinist ideology

A choice of one (aka Hobson's choice) strikes me more as being a Fordist ideology. Goes to show that a monopoly can form under political systems of either extreme, I guess.

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Re: Of course...

Apple "worked hard", did you say?

"The files contains a snippet of a deposition by former Apple industrial designer Shin Nishibori who said that Apple’s design chief Jonathan Ive told him to create a phone inspired by Sony’s designs. “If Sony were to make an iPhone, what would it be like?” Nishibori then goes on to comment on some designs for an Apple phone that he says were created “based on my own thoughts or my understanding of Sony-like designs.”"

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@MrXavia Re: Of course...

I concur, having sold both iPhones and Samsung Galaxy Models S-S3, as well as Galaxy Tabs, I don't see the likeness beyond the general shape. The Nexus lines even less so. Vocal Apple fans still have loads of evidence to actually cite (for once) before parroting the "wholesale copying" angle they keep parading about.

I HAVE had people mix the generic name of tablet with iPad, but I make sure to clarify where there is any doubt. If that's Apple's version of losing sales, they're not doing too great a job of being distinctive over generic design.

Still waiting for Apple to sue Intel as another one of their suppliers for promoting a similar rival to their Macbooks...

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Re: Of course...

""Its not like someone is claiming no one else can use the laptop form factor..."

I wish that were true :(

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/apple-patents-the-macbook-airs-wedge-design-bad-news-for-ultrabook-makers/"

Asus should probably start an injunction on MacBook Air then. That would be hillarious. :)

http://www.asus.com/Notebooks/Superior_Mobility/ASUS_ZENBOOK_UX31E/

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Re: Of course...

""Its not like someone is claiming no one else can use the laptop form factor..."

I wish that were true :(

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2012/06/apple-patents-the-macbook-airs-wedge-design-bad-news-for-ultrabook-makers/"

What a f*****g joke. The US patent system has a lot to answer for.

Typing this on a Macbook Pro - I think it will be the last Apple product I buy on principle...

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Stop

Re: Of course...

It's absolutely ridiculous!

I have a desktop calculator at work, the design of which is a rectangle with rounded corners, with the buttons being squares and rectangles, once again with rounded corners. It's other innovative feature is that the icons (read "Buttons") are below the screen!

It uses mechanical buttons rather than a touch screen, but in terms of basic design appearance, the iPhone is nothing more than an expensive knockoff of a calculator that I have had for over a decade.

Apple's use of "Design Patents" is an example of patent abuse at it's worst. It should never have been granted in the first place, and the granting examiner should be fitted out for a white cane immediately!

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Anonymous Coward

Yet again

The vitriolic Androids get on their high horses and pontificate and postulise on the de-merits of the Apple Empire.

I suppose I should not be surprised, maturity is definately not a factor to be concerned about here.

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Re: Yet again

"The vitriolic Androids get on their high horses and pontificate and postulise on the de-merits of the Apple Empire."

So you think companies should be able to patent rectangles then?

Nothing wrong with the "Empire" as you call it, I wouldn't have a problem with Apple taking action if it was a genuine invention - this is just frivolous.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Of course...

Actually generally the high street copies are exactly the same as the designer clothes, not a difference. My mum used to work in one of the few UK factories. Effectively they just had a single line making trousers. At the final point that line would be split into several others.

The several others would have the branding put on, tags, and then packed separately and shipped to different companies. So it's not so much every other company ripping them off, it's the designer themselves. They design it, license it under their name, and then sell off other unbranded versions to cheaper retail outlets even though its the exact same product.

Same with food at the supermarket. Generally the stores own is from the same place as heinz / kellogs etc, just slightly lower quality batch.

But I agree, apple shouldn't be allowed to patent rounded corners. I mean I have an old phone from the 90's one of the massive nokia housebricks. It has rounded corners, sadly though it isn't a touch screen so it's a completely different product.

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Vic
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Re: Of course...

> Generally the stores own is from the same place as heinz / kellogs etc, just slightly lower quality batch.

This is absolutely *not* true when it comes to Kelloggs. They refuse to make foods for anyone else.

Other manufacturers do quite often just package their standard product in the supermarkets' foil/boxes.

Vic.

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FAIL

Re: Of course...

"He did acknowledge that Apple bought phones from the competition and analyzed them, but said this was largely to sort out how to design antennas and avoid dropped calls"

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh IC said the Blynde Mann.

I suppose they coiled their antenna's clockwise while the people they stole the ideas... ummm I mean reverse engineered.... No I mean... ummm merely looked at the competitions phones - fully assembled of course... yeah well the competition coiled their antennas anti-clockwise...

Well I suppose that all comes down to how you insert the antenna's into the phone... as to which way the antenna is coiled... but there is a difference and we made sure that we made sure, ummm..... the antennas were not ummm...... copied, stolen or reverse engineered... and the coiling went in the opposite direction.....

Ummmmmm

(bullshit artist)

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WTF?

Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

"to sort out how to design antennas and avoid dropped calls"

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Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

Does this mean that Apple have admitted to Reverse engineering??

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Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

That only comes to prove: rounded corners totally triumphs over the essence of a phone - calls and communication.

So basically it is: we stole the communication part but we 'invented' the rectangle w/ rounded corners - exactly the same as a credit card!

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Happy

Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

They didn't learn much, did they?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

Everyone does it, they all tear down rivals products and see what they've done and work out the cost of the product in parts.

In the 80s at trade shows some of the Japanese companies would take apart the display computers while nobody was looking.

Many of the patents are on the process and what a part is trying to achieve. Such simple parts are unlikely to be protect-able.

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Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

I still remember working the tills at PC World, and some chap comes over with a Nintendo DS. As the script demands, I ask "business or personal use?" A slight smirk, because who would buy a games console for business use?

Imagine my surprise when it was for business use. Then while capturing details for the VAT reciept, I find out it's being bought by a director for Sony Computer Entertainment Europe?

So no, Apple buying competitor's phones doesn't surprise me. However, tearing down phones to look at antenna designs doesn't seem to have paid off all that well, it must be said!

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Re: Yeah, RIGHT!!!!!

"Does this mean that Apple have admitted to Reverse engineering??"

It looks like it to me.

And don't companies have something in the small print about not reverse engineering their stuff?

They need to find out which products were reversed engineered and sue Apple.

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Haha

First they copied sony-style design. Now they copied technical designs from other phones.

hahaaa, I was lead to believe that Apple pull all theirs designs from the creative minds.

Seem like the only contribution made by Apple to the smartphones was marketing!!!!

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Re: Haha

... and then they put Samsung chips at the heart of it and gave it a Samsung screen as well. There's enough Samsung parts in an iPhone that its almost a Samsung.

Apple's attorney isn't helping their cause by pointing out the marketing aspect ONLY. Apple's contribution is marketing, UI and API's, but it is telling on Apple being a marketing company rather than an engineering/innovating company.

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WTF?

Wait, what?

"I will not let any theatrics or sideshow distract us from what we are here to do."

Presumably she means other theatrics and sideshows.

Panem et circenses...

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FAIL

Evidence

Evidence is EVIDENCE - its existence does not rely on being filed on time.

One must question the judge's decision to exclude it then expect a jury not to be able to view it. OK, so perhaps a financial penalty should be placed on Samsung for submitting it late, however should the case go in Apple's favour the exclusion of the evidence gives grounds for Samsung to appeal.

And ultimately the winners are the lawyers

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WTF?

Hang on a mo...

"While four jurors said they had seen the reports, this wasn't seen as a problem."

What's wrong with this picture... [hint: my emphasis]

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Re: Hang on a mo...

Not that much when you consider there are a total of TEN jurors. IOW, the potential corruption only covers a minority of the jurors, and I haven't heard anything concerning alternates. Since this is a civil case, only a majority is necessary to find in favor of one or the other (it's in criminal cases where the unanimity rule applies).

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Re: Hang on a mo...

Four out of ten works out at 40%, which means the way figures are calculated these days, nearly half of the jurors failed to follow a simple instruction regarding not viewing reporting of the case and its side-issues.

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Re: Hang on a mo...

Firstly it's 4 out of 9 (one of the original 10 has been excused)

Secondly only 6 of the 9 get to vote (3 are alternates in case any of the main 6 have to withdraw)

We don't know how many of those 4 were alternates or primary. Worst case it could be 2/3rds of the voting jury.

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Vic
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Re: Hang on a mo...

> four jurors said they had seen the reports

Did they claim they had *read* the reports?

They might have seen just the headline, realised it was stuff they should not have been reading about, and moved on.

Vic.

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Incredibly balanced article.

I like how you have all the comments from Samsung too, balanced against Apple's POV. Er, wait....

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Seriously?

"In a busy day's testimony, Apple's marketing boss Phil Schiller took to the stand to defend his company's right to own such design features as a tablet with rounded corners. "

I like Apple products but I have no idea how this guy could have done that and kept a straight face. FFS, it's just plain childish.

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"I will not let any theatrics or sideshow distract us from what we are here to do."

Which is what, Judge Koh? Do your best to protect an American company from fair competition?

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Boffin

Can someone point me...

To a forum post where a fanboi is asking why he can't get siri, facetime, iTunes or something similar to load on his Samsung branded iPad or iPhone?

If they can, then yes I will believe that Apple lost a sale.

On the other hand, I don't own iAnything but did buy a Mac for my wife for Christmas so there's one extra sale they can deduct from there 'lost sales' net figure.

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Re: Can someone point me...

One, that wasn't what he was talking about. Two, whats the likelyhood that someone who can't tell the difference between an iPad and a Galaxy, is going to use web forums?

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Re: Can someone point me...

I think you have forgotten that there is no lower limit to the stupidity of web users

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Re: Can someone point me...

Steve Todd can't tell the difference, and he posts on these forums.

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Re: Can someone point me...

No real need for a personal attack. He's entitled to his opinion.

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@Craigness

Ah, now THAT's an ad hominem attack, you might want to explain it to "Mark ."

You're trying to put words in my mouth I see. All I've ever said is that Samsung's designs are close enough to confuse a non technically literate user and allow them to be swayed by a salesman in the direction of the cheaper device.

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Re: @Craigness

Do samsung offer a beter deal to retailers then or is apple as tight as a gnats chuff.

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FAIL

Re: @Craigness

In what topsy turvy bizarro world do you live in where a salesman tries to get you to buy something cheaper?

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Stop

Re: @Craigness

Given that Samsung have a history of giving out "spliffs", incentives to individual salesmen for meeting sales targets, then this is a very real problem.

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