back to article Olympic athletes compete in RAYGUN SHOOTING for the first time

Thus far, we here at the Register have struggled to hang much of a tech angle on the ongoing London Olympics. As there are also few obvious Paris Hilton angles to be found on the 2012 spectacle-fest, and few Vultures have any deep expertise in sports or physical exercise, we have thus far confined ourselves to a few pieces on …

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Outraged!

Surely the skill of the shooter was being able to anticipate and compensate for gravity, wind, temperature etc, and well as physical control of heart rate, breathing etc to obtain the perfect shot?

Lasers just seem like...cheating.

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Pirate

Re: Outraged!

Yup. I think they should up the stakes a bit and use muzzle-loaded black-powder pistols instead. The athletes can learn to load while running, that sort of thing.

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Re: Outraged!

I concur, part of the skill of shooting is factoring in external forces like gravity and wind. Anybody who has learned to shoot will tell you the direction of the barrel is not the whole story.

Where does this leave them with respect to records? They would have to start over right? It would be akin to turning round to the hurdlers and saying, right the 2012 hurdles are 60% shorter and when the records fall (not due to better training or fitter humans) depriving the old record holder of their title. It just wouldn't be fair on the current record holders who set records under more difficult conditions.

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FAIL

Re: Outraged!

Also no recoil to compenstate for.

Might as well scrap the competition, as it is now longer even an aproximate facilimy of the military skills it was suppose to be a test of.

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Re: Outraged!

It is cheating, but there is a solution.

In order to bring the skill back into it, the competitors should have to get totally ratfaced first. The type of ratfaced where you have to close one eye in order to try and get your key in the door.

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Flame

Re: Outraged!

What's next? Motorbikes for the cross-country running? DPVs for the swimming? Damn Nanny State rides again!

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JDX
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Re: Outraged!

Wind and gravity don't impact on pistol shooting; it's too short distance. It's only 10m or so unlike rifle shooting over several hundred metres.

Recoil is more relevant but then since they already switched to air pistols...

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Re: Outraged!

Perhaps the unfamiliar horse is partially to compensate? Maybe they should get the horse drunk or shoot a supersoaker full of chilli water up the horses back passage?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Outraged!

Well, lasers *do* have recoil, y'know?

I believe these ones have a delay built in between trigger pull and fire, to stimulate travel.

And it's not like the target pistols that used to be used had any significant recoil anyway.

"These were chosen with the idea that they were the primary physical skills that a military officer (perhaps tasked with delivering urgent despatches across the battlefield)"

I think that the events were specifically designed to emulate the activities of an officer escaping from behind enemy lines.

The modern Decathlon is along similar lines and includes wine-cellar raiding, Frenchie heiress defrocking, chicken stealing, cadding, boundering, and the 200m disdainful glare.

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Pint

Re: Outraged!

"In order to bring the skill back into it, the competitors should have to get totally ratfaced first."

The competition always used to be dominated by Commissioned Officers.

They're used to being drunk. It's more of a handicap making them compete sober.

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Angel

@despairing citizen - Re: Outraged! -- Forget all this imitation shooting stuff.

When I was learning to shoot, bullets had mass, were subject to wind drift, and there's a myriad of other things one had to learn before one could consistently repeat high scores in application shooting. Take any away and the game's a silly joke.

I'd propose we do away with the sport altogether and substitute bubble-gum blowing instead.

At least the spectators would be amused.

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FAIL

Re: Outraged!

Or, just not have the Olympics in the UK with their retarded gun laws.

I'm seriously baffled as to why they would consider hosting the Olympics and not issuing a temporary order allowing fire arms during the competition.

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Pint

Re: Outraged!

Ooh! Ooh! And driving! You've got to add drunk driving, too!

We'll get Oksana Baiul back into the Olympics yet!

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Re: Outraged!

The IOC is a corrupt organisation that already has far too much influence. Changing the laws of a country just to accommodate a sporting event should not be encouraged.

On the subject of lasers, will the athletes have to compensate for new environmental factors when taking their shot? How will a heat haze affect the accuracy of a laser pistol?

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FAIL

Re: Outraged!

They already DID change the law to allow firearms.

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Re: Outraged!

@fibbles

>On the subject of lasers, will the athletes have to compensate for new environmental factors when taking their shot? How will a heat haze affect the accuracy of a laser pistol?

In the UK? in summer? are you serious??

Rain maybe, or ice crystals, but heat haze... nope.

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Devil

Re: Outraged!

Time to bring in grenade launching and attack helicopter crowd thinning?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Wind and gravity don't impact on pistol shooting; it's too short distance"

Gravity effects everything, and trajectory is important when dealing with competition standard target shooting.

Wind has a veriable effect based on the size - weight - aerodynamcs and energy of the projectile.

Pistol rounds tend to be low powered and large, making them more susiptiable to wind effects than high veloicty rifle rounds. (which is why long range pistol shooting is done with rifle rounds e.g. 7.62x51)

The higher the velocity of the round, the flatter it's trajectory

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Re: Outraged!

That's not such a daft idea. Use BMX Bikes rather than horses, and replace fencing with Judo. They're all Olympic sports, so there's no huge problem.

Since the running and shooting are combined, it's going to be hard shooting straight, and breathing.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @despairing citizen - Outraged! -- Forget all this imitation shooting stuff.

" the game's a silly joke"

... a bit like Blighty then :-(

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Outraged!

Segways - a magnitude more gay!

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Re: Outraged!

There's no recoil to speak of with the air pistols either. But you did at least have to have a decent technique as you still had a small but significant lock time and barrel time.

Unless they have built in a delay, the shot will be basically instantaneous, which makes the whole affair trivially easy.

There's been a lot of grumbling as it impacts the grassroots rather deeply - most local competitions can't afford electronic targetry, and would prefer to use good old falling plates with air pistols, which leads to a split between grassroots and national level competition, and those on the boundaries needing two pistols, which will have slightly different weights, balances, and react differently.

Also, on the lead front, it's not hard. Lay down matting in front of the targets (which will also have a hard backstop) and sweep up afterwards. It's only 10m air pistol, not shotgun or 1000yd rifle - very easy to contain the lead.

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Re: Outraged!

They did. All the shooting events are going on as normal. Foreign rifle shooters and shotgunners just had to get temporary permits whilst their UK counterparts already held those guns on Firearm and Shotgun Certificates. The only ones that caused a bit of paperwork were the cartridge pistols for Sport Pistol, Rapid Fire Pistol and 50metre Pistol which have to come directly form the Home Office (FACs/SGCs are issued by your local Police Force).

The pistols needed section 5 permits from the Home Office for the duration of the Games, but all the other airguns are legal here, as are the firearms (with the right licence).

The move to laser guns was a move by the World Pentathlon Association for reasons best known to themselves. Nothing to do with UK laws (we allow air pistols anyway). Their claim was it would be easier and safer to run events with laser pistols, but since 10m air ranges are not hard to set up, and I know of no major safety incidents or injuries on one, that was a fairly poor excuse.

All it did was hack off a lot of Pentathletes who had to go and spend moolah on laser pistols (and couldn't part ex on their air pistols because they still need those for local and national comps until all the relevant national governing bodies catch up and buy the targetry needed).

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Re: Outraged!

@Dave Bell

BMXs? This sounds more relevant to modern life! The running should be done wearing trousers two sizes too big and gaudy underwear and they could have a random vandalism event.

Is texting an event yet?

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Re: Outraged!

Incorrect.

Pistol rounds typically travel around 200m/s. Why? Because (especially for rimfires which have structural limitations) the short barrel only affords limited opportunity for acceleration from a relatively low pressure load. In addition, one doesn't want to have to contend with transonic aerodynamic instability. This also reduces recoil (and yes, air pistols have slight but significant recoil as well, at the level of competition we're considering).

At 200m/s, one covers 10m in 0.05s. At roughly 10m/s^2, that means the downward vector is 0.5m/s, give or take, and that the bullet lands lower by about 1cm, by virtue of gravity.

At this level of competition, accounting for 1cm is not trivial. It's crucial. It might seem trivial if you're shooting at people under combat conditions, but even shooting small vermin it is highly nontrivial.

An additional fudge factor is what happens with the placement of the powder grains in the cartridge. This is a factor in physical ammunition, which doesn't apply to lasers.

The best argument you could make in this context is that it shouldn't matter because the sights would be pinned for the appropriate distance, which honestly suggests a different approach: give each competitor a bog standard 1911, hi-power, CZ-85 (for the lefties) or similar, and have them shoot at a variety of ranges from, say, 3m to 30m. That will separate the sheep from the goats.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: @despairing citizen - Outraged! -- Forget all this imitation shooting stuff.

"When I was learning to shoot, bullets had mass, were subject to wind drift"

.22 Olympic-quality target pistols don't have anything recognisable as recoil, and 25m doesn't really result in windage. It's apples and oranges, really.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: "Wind and gravity don't impact on pistol shooting; it's too short distance"

"Gravity effects everything, and trajectory is important when dealing with competition standard target shooting."

Gravity is constant.

Given the same muzzle velocity and range, drop is constant.

Range is going to be constant.

So you set the sights for the range. And then you you don't compensate for gravity.

Gravity is not an issue, nor a variable. It is constant that one's kit compensates for.

Simples.

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Anonymous Coward

The way the future was

Well done on using "scientifiction". Hugo would be proud.

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Unfamiliar horse

I thought that twist was added at the 2008 Olympics but wasn't the norm, and modern-pentathletes usually rode their own horses.

If unfamiliar horses have now become standard, then I'll definitely be watching, that was the most hilarious event in 2008.

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Nev
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It's the 21st Century...

.. easy to come up with a blank-firing, laser sited simulated weapon.

Kinda makes the "Why are guns banned? It's a hobby to practice a great skill/sport." argument redundant.

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Re: It's the 21st Century...

Though it does nothing to touch on "Why are guns banned? It's a hobby I enjoy" argument. Or should things be banned just because they're not interesting to you?

Besides, it's harder to enjoy reloading and working up loads for a laser.

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Childcatcher

Re: It's the 21st Century...

"Besides, it's harder to enjoy reloading and working up loads for a laser."

Only if it's a namby pamby laser...

I agree with Matt (!) though- where's our Mary Poppins Icon?

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Anonymous Coward

@ Nev

Not only have you missed most of the point of the discussion with that remark, but if you are going to talk about guns you might do well to learn how to spell "sight".

It's what you do with your eyes. Not where builders work.

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Flame

It's the thin end of the wedge...

Soon they'll also be riding around in uncrashable robot horses, using light sabres instead of swords (without the decapitation ability), virtual pools where you swim in VR, or use a games console and running, where they all use joint-injury-friendly treadmills.

Humbug!

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Don't forget "Participation Medals" so no-one goes home empty handed.

Humbug indeed!

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FAIL

WII Sports Olympics

The next generation's Olympics will be played entirely on WII Consoles across the internet.. which is how it should be in an age where sports in schools is regarded as too expensive... "athletes" will be disqualified for taking a new range of banned substances - Rockstar, Red Bull, etc - and avatars will have to conform to IOC dress standards.

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Light sabres

Not as clumsy or random as a... laser pistol...

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Why bother.

As a precious poster mentioned there is more to shooting than simply aiming and pressing a button. Why not just drop the sport since it has been decided that guns are evil and nobody who isn't under the employ of the government must be allowed to touch one?

They should drop the bow and arrows too in case they're stolen to order by criminals wanting to hold up the local Tesco.

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Re: Why bother. " ...a precious poster ..."

I like that finger slip. (I assume it was a finger slip.)

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Re: Why bother. " ...a precious poster ..."

Yes, amusing typo.

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Re: Why bother.

Drop the javelin too since somebody might decide to start a war in Germania. Oh, and the hammer throw needs to go away, wouldn't want any Scotts' getting any ideas - particularly while in London!

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Anonymous Coward

The sporting gun simulators I'm familiar with have an infrared LED in the target shining back towards the firing position and the "guns" have a camera where the bullets would normally exit.

I think the transition has more to do with finances, pentathlon being a relatively expensive sport.

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Anonymous Coward

Expensive?

Um, I think the laser guns are actually more expensive than even high-quality air pistols - they are not used for anything else so won't benefit from economies of scale. The targets themselves (which must contain electronics) certainly cost more than paper ones.

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Possibilities.

I read this and think it must be about time to start lobbying for Laser Tag to become an Olympic sport.

Oddest laser tag place I ever went to was in CZ. The "guns" were rather larger, heavier and more robust than usual and the chest and back sensor / scoring arrangements were dirty great metal boxed things, liberally adored with large, balefully glowing lime-green and red LEDs and attached to a honking great NiCad battery pack on the belt. My guess is that it was ex-Soviet military training gear. Slight snag was that the straps for the sensor gear were designed for athletic young soldier types and didn't fit middle-aged fat bastards too well. Still, it evened things out as the adults were struggling to keep everything in place while the kids were struggling under the sheer weight of the kit.

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Happy

Re: Possibilities.

Hey, it's not like you can just go and buy the same stuff the US and allies use for their training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Integrated_Laser_Engagement_System). Oh, wait a sec... yes you can! http://www.bpbsurplus.com/lc/cart.php?target=category&category_id=310

Well, as long as you're not called Abdul and live in Bradford.....

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@TeeCee - You play?

You play tag? What system? Don't say Quasar. I'll cry.

As an avid laser tag player, I welcome this upgrade to the Olympic event. Perhaps next time we can have the ability for the target to fire back, requiring some sort of...vest apparatus? And then the time after that, we could play in the dark!

One step at a time. ;-)

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Go

but ...

What if a competitor accidentally continued to carry the laser gun whilst in the swimming section of the event and a passing shark happened to end up with the aforementioned energy weapon on it's head by benefit of some seaweed adhesive anomaly ... ?!

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