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back to article Austrians drool over 15th-century jub buckets

A team from the Institute of Archaeologies at the University of Innsbruck reckons it's unearthed the earliest known bra - a pair of 15th-century linen jub buckets which turned up in a castle in East Tyrol. The Lengberg compared with a 1950s longline bra. Pic: University of Innsbruck The antique büstenhalter was among 2,700 …

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Wimmin of Newcastle.......

"..Nutz clarified that medieval women didn't wear knickers, and that underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"....

The archetypal ladette's of Newcastle don't wear knickers and certainly don't adhere to the male dominance and power theory of the Archaelogists.

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Coat

Re: Wimmin of Newcastle.......

But these were from an OldCastle.......

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IT Angle

People are Nutz

Who goes and digs through old people's discarded underwear? I couldn't care less if the king himself wore them.

Let met try to spot the IT angle here: the undies were worn by a girl. A girl just took over! as! CEO! of! Yahoo! Both Yahoo and the undies are relics of the past.

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FAIL

Re: People are Nutz

Bootnotes.

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WTF?

... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

Am I the only one who finds this statement ridiculous?

A symbol of dominance and power is a steel warhelmet with eagle's wings sticking out of the side. It's a bloody big sword that everybody can see. It is not a scrap of linen that nobody sees until you take your clothes off and even then, a scrap of cloth with skidmarks and piss stains does not cut it as a powerful symbol.

The purpose of underpants is to support the male genitalia because riding a horse without adequate underwear takes you into a world of pain (as I know from personal experience). Also, doing any kind of physically arduous work (for a man) without suitable underwear leads to those 'oh-shit' moments when you wish you had worn something tighter and more supportive.

Has Ms Nutz considered why the men of those times did not wear bras? Could it be that they didn't have breasts? Could it be that women did not wear underpants because they did not have external genitalia? Maybe people were different in those days; I'm not an expert but I suppose she is.

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Meh

Re: ... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

Just one thing to clear up then. Who wears the eagle winged helmet in your family?

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@TeeCee Re: eagle winged helmet

My wife wears the helmet because she enjoys fighting. I prefer to stay at home doing gardening and decorating. She sometimes makes me walk around the house naked but I've no idea what that's about.

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Re: ... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

I have to say, as a card-carding feminist, I agree that this statement was ridiculous. Chaps wore knickers for support and modesty, and this style was suitable for someone wearing hose (leggings), the standard apparel in those days.

But it is an amazing discovery, as ordinary clothes are hard to find, and now we know more about the past and its underwear. Always cool, and appropriate for El Reg because we like interesting information. And, of course, because most of you are blokes.

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Coat

Re: ... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

"The purpose of underpants is to support the male genitalia" - maybe, but boxer shorts are popular though they signally fail in that respect.

I have read elsewhere that underpants were almost unknown until the 18th century. The usual procedure was to tuck your shirt-tails between your legs. I assume that accounts for the old-fashioned tunic-style shirts that had a long tail at the back and front and buttons that barely reached the waist. It still sounds like a rather precarious solution.

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Coat

Re: ... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

Given the era and area the feminist angle is rather moot... Think old-fashioned catholic *medieval* style thinking not unlike the more extreme "religious" opinions regarding such things.

As Hollerith1 pointed out, the style of undies is suitable for the then current fasion of the hose, which included an item called the "codpiece" . ( insert Blackadder reference here for Comic Relief )

Aside from practical issues others have pointed out, men of station and breeding were *expected* to bulge, and the long-legged boxer-type underpants everyone else, including the women, wore simply do not do the job in combination with a hose.

Given that in that era clothing directly equated to Status, and given that the actual purpose of the underwear is to achieve something that due to a simple matter of anatomy is exclusively male ( unless you resort to a stout pair of socks (scarth and lithp opthional, thank you Sir Terry) , it's easy to see how a piece of underwear becomes a symbol of male dominance and power.

Mine's the one with the chainmail hood.

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Re: ... underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"

I have read elsewhere that underpants were almost unknown until the 18th century.

Untrue. As any re-enactor will tell you, underpants (braies) were de rigeur ever since the Norman invasion, and possibly earlier.

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Anonymous Coward

"..Nutz clarified that medieval women didn't wear knickers, and that underpants "were considered a symbol of male dominance and power"....

And here I am going Commando.

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K
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Coat

Can see these on eBay...

"Soiled panties for sale... guaranteed vintage aroma"!!

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Re: Can see these on eBay...

Sold, to the Japanese gentleman with his hands in his pockets.

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Anonymous Coward

No one else has asked yet, so...

What size were these mediæval jubs? Inquiring minds & all that...

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Are they sure it's 15th Century, and not a recent purchase from Primark after a couple of hot washes?

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Coat

Hmm...

As worn by the knights of St. Michael and their ladies?

It's the carefully warmed and padded chain mail

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This post has been deleted by its author

Unhappy

Please remove this article before my wife sees it. If not ill be dragged to a vintage fayre in East Tyrol

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Anonymous Coward

Curious

If medieval Austrian women didn't wear any knickers surely there'd be a few days a month when they might want to review that decision. Maybe that's where the power struggle idea comes from?

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Who knew?

I'd have voted for Achilles or Thor as the archetypal dominant male figure in Western Lit, but evidently it's Captain Underpants, for whom see Wikipedia, or the volumes themselves.

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Anonymous Coward

Underpants = symbol of power

Surely only if worn over trousers, a la Superman.

Personally, I can't see how my Spongebob squarepants pants give me any sort of dominance over other people - unless they were wearing a Patrick thong - *shudders* in which case the pecking order would be obvious.

Perhaps somebody needs to create an 'undergarment' pecking order so we all know what to buy/avoid.

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Underpants = symbol of power

What about Scotsmen? Do they or don't they, wear underpants with their kilts?

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Anonymous Coward

Re: Underpants = symbol of power

Ask the Scots bride who ended up with skid marks on her dress when her kilt-wearing new husband sat on her lap during the reception...

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Boffin

That's probably the European viewpoint...

Given known pictorial depiction of Japanese art predating 15th centry (and I can confirm if you're interested,) both men and women of Edo did wear tighty-whities (and it's rather clever, when you think about the fact it's just one fairly long sheet of fabric.) I suspect it's primarily for support for men, and extra blottage for the women. Underwear status *never* did enter the picture for them; the Japanese were generally practical for the times then.

Which makes you wonder, did they really have panties in Norman times? One suspects they burned those because they don't have any really good way of removing menstrual staining back then, I suppose.

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